Carr Sportsman a jazz amp?

Cobra · #1 01-15-2012, 06:53 AM

It certainly is:

Sportsman Carr Amplifiers

YouTube Video

msr13 · #2 01-15-2012, 07:46 AM

A magnificent amp. I p,ayed one for a couple of hours at the Nashville Amp show. Great. Just great. albeit, very expensive.

Jazzman301 · #3 01-15-2012, 08:43 AM

It sounds great. My question is why would people pay more for a new amp and not buy one of the multitude of vintage Ampeg, Fender, or Musicman amps and get real vintage tone? $2,100 is rather steep for an amp with its particular features. A VERY expensive 19 watts maxed out(16 clean according to reviews).

'Mike

mr. beaumont · #4 01-15-2012, 08:57 AM

I guess i'd first have to be able to quantify "vintage" tone...a broken in speaker? Old wood in the cabinet?

It's kinda like asking why do people buy brand new houses instead of beautiful old fixer uppers. Because people are people...

Jazzman301 · #5 01-15-2012, 09:15 AM

I get that. But I am not talking about a fixer upper amp. I mean fully functioning vintage amps in good-excellent condition. My 67 Ampeg looks amazing for its age, a few light scuffs and scratches, and oozes vintage tone. We all know there are plenty of Fender amps in excellent condition availa ble for less than the amps trying to give that vintage tone...Thats my point.

I see the allure of buying new. I try to buy based on tone and feel when it comes to instruments and not on whether or not something is new/old or what the head stock says.

'Mike

jorgemg1984 · #6 01-15-2012, 09:25 AM

Yes - boutique amps can achieve prices that are hard to understand. And you have several other builders that build amps with very good reputation like the Gries 35 that sells an head for 1350$ (others like Tube-Tone or Vintage Sound Amps sell similar heads in the 1700$ range). Or even a Mojo or Allen kit can be had for around 1000$, any tech will build one for 200$ / 300$ I think.

cjm · #7 01-15-2012, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzman301

It sounds great. My question is why would people pay more for a new amp and not buy one of the multitude of vintage Ampeg, Fender, or Musicman amps and get real vintage tone? $2,100 is rather steep for an amp with its particular features. A VERY expensive 19 watts maxed out(16 clean according to reviews).

'Mike

You mentioned Music Man...I guess it's just difficult for me to accept that "vintage tone" is something that comes from the 1970s or later...

But the thing is, "vintage tone" doesn't really exist. When that stuff that is "vintage" today was new and current production...guitar players were bemoaning the crap sound it provided compared to the gear from 20 years earlier.

What there is -- is GAS. GAS for new gear and GAS for old gear that's new to the player. That, coupled to the superstitious belief that "You get what you pay for," is why there are $2100 16 watt amps and a cult of "vintage" gear.

Its a fun diversion from practice and working on technique.

Cobra · #8 01-15-2012, 09:33 AM

I agree the price is steep, but just about everything these days is expensive...
If you google a search on this amp, you'll find that just about everyone loves the sound of this amp if you're into BF Princeton/BF Deluxe clean to slightly pushed sounds, & addresses most of the liabilities the vintage amps are known for:

Scooped mids - via a wide range mid control
Flatulent bass
Age/reliability issues when dealing with vintage amps
Too splashy/surf reverb

Steve Carr is well known for building a very high quality product, & standing behind them.
I've never played a Sportsman, but I used to own a Carr Rambler, which was also exceptional at clean jazz tones. The build quality & sounds were off the hook. I sold it because I was searching for different & dirtier amp sounds, & other amps were more in my wheelhouse at that time.
I wish I had the foresight to keep the Rambler, but I couldn't afford to keep an amp I wasn't using then.

jorgemg1984 · #9 01-15-2012, 09:40 AM

Well, it HAS to sound good at that price right? I never played one and I assume it's really awesome but there are other cheaper alternatives that should be as good like second hand amps or other boutique builders.

Music Man amps are not probably vintage for a lot of people cjm but they sound quite good and are usually cheap (500€ / 600€ in Europe). And designed by Leo

I agree with you 100% I bet people said blackface amps were not good and the old tweed and brownface were much better when blackface amps came out

mr. beaumont · #10 01-15-2012, 10:23 AM

I've met few vintage amps that didn't need the fixing up, or if the fixing up has been done, they don't cost close to what the boutiqers charge.

But again, people are people. I'd rather have a 64 impala than a new camaro, but that's me.

Plus I'm still not sold on the idea of "vintage tone"...an amp either gets a sound I want or not.

jorgemg1984 · #11 01-15-2012, 10:38 AM

And even if the amp need those fixes they are easy and cheap for a tech to perform usually - taming the bass or the reverb on blackface amps? Google you will help you a lot on that.

Jazzman301 · #12 01-15-2012, 05:35 PM

I agree Mr.B. I buy based on what I hear not names or whether something is vintage or not. My Ampeg get the tone that I like so its a solid value for me. My Cube 80xl also sounds decent. It has to give me the sound I want period. I am not a brand snob/whore. Either its good or its not.

'Mike

SamBooka · #13 01-15-2012, 06:40 PM

So I will put this out here.
If the Rambler amp sells for 1500 used
And a blackface Princeton sells for 1300 is that a better comparison?

Jazzman301 · #14 01-15-2012, 06:43 PM

Its all in what people are into and looking for out of their amp. No denying the quality of the Carr stuff. Its great gear but to me extremely pricey. I also think that I can find something that sounds just as good for less.

'Mike

jorgemg1984 · #15 01-15-2012, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzman301

Its all in what people are into and looking for out of their amp. No denying the quality of the Carr stuff. Its great gear but to me extremely pricey. I also think that I can find something that sounds just as good for less.

'Mike

This sums it up actually.

HighSpeedSpoon · #16 01-15-2012, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzman301

Its all in what people are into and looking for out of their amp. No denying the quality of the Carr stuff. Its great gear but to me extremely pricey. I also think that I can find something that sounds just as good for less.

'Mike

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

This sums it up actually.

I'm no amp expert, but I also think that sums it up. Maybe it's because I'm no expert that I don't understand why there is so much talk about Carr versus vintage, as opposed to Carr versus anything vintage or modern. Go shop amps and buy what your ears and budget tell you to buy, and if it's a Carr, then okay for you.

Jazzman301 · #17 01-15-2012, 09:24 PM

Exactly man. But I think more people are buying a name or brand mroe than a sound or feel. But hey its their money right?
I know just jazz guitar reviewed a Carr amp not that long ago along with 3 others similarly priced. Well reviewed...but then again it seems Just jazz guitar never reviews anything they don't like or recomend.

'Mike

Flat · #18 01-16-2012, 02:51 AM

I'm getting close to springing for a Carr Mercury on the used market, probably for about $1600.

I'd love a nice old blackface, but I'd be worried about reliability, repairs, durability--not to mention I'm not sure $1600 will get me much of a bf. Maybe a decent Princeton.

I think I can get similar or slightly better tone from the Carr, plus it can be attenuated down to 1 watt or 1/2 watt...to get really world-class tube tone at volumes that are practical for recording or for people with neighbors, like me. Can't get that on a vintage bf.

I just think it will be a better, more reliable (built like a tank), more flexible (attenuation) and more practical fit for me. At least that's my line of thinking, fwiw.

Though I do fully understand the joy and magnificence of a nice old blackface Princeton or Vibrolux!

whiskey02 · #19 01-16-2012, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamBooka

So I will put this out here.
If the Rambler amp sells for 1500 used
And a blackface Princeton sells for 1300 is that a better comparison?

Yes. The car is worth more so it costs more. It's not that expensive. I bought an Ampeg bass head around 1979; paid about $750 if memory serves. Adjusted to 2010 that's $2222. Also, a lot of people buy "vintage" amps only to find out that they're noisy, ungrounded shock hazards that don't live up to their expectations.
Why doesn't anybody GAS for vintage guitar cables? All the greats used em

jorgemg1984 · #20 01-16-2012, 05:19 AM

Yes, that's one of the reasons to go for a new amp that is based on the old ones - sort of the best of both worlds. But there are some good fender clones made for quite less money than the Carr - it feels like they have a great but overpriced product.

Some people do have GAS for vintage high capacitance cables like Hendrix and SRV used.

marcwhy · #21 01-16-2012, 08:29 AM

These "Economics 101" threads are sometimes confusing for me -- it's kinda basic: people buy what they want if they can (and sometimes even when they can't)!.

Yes, there are often great differences in quality and sound between a $100 Micro Cube and a $2500 Fuchs amp, and if you afford the Fuchs, it's an awesome amp. Are there less expensive amps that sound good? Definitely! Should you buy that instead? I don't care -- you can buy what you want! Would the less expensive amp be better than the Fuchs? THat's debatable -- you're still going to buy what you want.

Why buy $200 jeans, or a $6000 custom strat, or a $150 bottle of wine, or a $150 leather strap? Because people make them and you can.

Marc

jorgemg1984 · #22 01-16-2012, 09:21 AM

Yes you discovered the laws of supply and demand. What we are saying here is that some brands are selling overpriced amps based on marketing which is a common technique in several other business areas - restaurants are the first that come to my mind. IMO most "jazz amp" companies do the same.

Of course there's nothing wrong with that - apparently people are willing to support their business.

Bill C · #23 01-16-2012, 10:16 AM

Economies of scale also come into it. If an amp is being manufactured in the thousands or tens of thousands for a broad market it's probably going to cost less to make than an amp being produced by a small manufacturer to meet the specific requirements of a niche market.

HighSpeedSpoon · #24 01-16-2012, 11:11 AM

I don't have a dog in the race for or against Carr, and I don't care who buys what. If some guy says he played a bunch of amps and the Carr - or whatever - was worth the money to him, I don't bat an eyelash.

But - call me crazy - I prefer to buy what I'm looking for for less rather than more. Other people are that way too, and we trade notes in forums about who we think is overpriced and who we think is a good value. So I like to hear from people and find out why they think Carrs - or whatever - are worth the money or what they thought would have been cheaper and just as good or better and no more expensive. That that doesn't seem unreasonable or like it should be too hard to understand.

HighSpeed

Dennis D · #25 01-16-2012, 01:47 PM

I look at the sheer number of guitar amp builders, cheap, middle, boutique clones, etc etc, and I wonder how do you differentiate yourself from the pack? Or why would someone enter that business, and try to compete with the big boys ?? I see ads for new stand-alone guitar amp builders, and I just scratch my head. I wish them well, but that has to be a tough decision to make, working as hard as they most likely must, and watching the money go away. Any enlightenment appreciated.
MHO
Dennis

Jim Soloway · #26 01-16-2012, 01:58 PM

Nice shiny crisp tone. Sounds great to me.

Patrick2 · #27 01-16-2012, 02:24 PM

Many great points here. I can't really see how anyone can disagree with any of these posts. They all seem to say . . . "hey man, buy what's right for you". But, people seem to have differing motivational hot buttons. Also, correctly pointed out, while a BF Princeton reverb is a great amp to compare the Carr Sportsman, the $1,300 price point is not realistic . . . at least not for one that's in excellent condition. Possibly a silver face 1970, which still has the BF circuitry, in excellent condition for somewhere between $1,200 and $1,500 is more easily found. Also, gotta agree with Mr. B on the quest for "vintage tone". Talk about variables?? WOW!!!

I've got some great vintage Fender amps. But, if I'm gigging 3 or more nights per week, I want brand new dependability, top quality and suitable to my own needs/wants. Too many people buy a black face Fender amp, just because it's a black face Fender amp. Then, they struggle to get "their" sound. Instead, settling for its sound.

I'm very fortunate to live relatively close by to Andy Fuchs shop. I could drive up to see Andy, chat with him about what I wanted. He would build me something specific to his perception of what I wanted, based upon our conversation, of what I was looking for. If, when I went there to pick up my amp, it wasn't what I wanted . . . he would gladly continue to tweak it, change components if necessary, until I was a happy camper.

jorgemg1984 · #28 01-16-2012, 04:43 PM

I agree new it's best for the road - but there lots of amp builders that can build you a good blackface replica and voice it the way you want it for less than the Carr price. I assume it's a great amp but I think it's pure marketing saying "we resolved the bass and reverb on blackface amps" like they discovered the end of oil dependence...

I have heard nothing but great things about Fuchs. Vic Juris highly endorses his amps for jazz and that man knows gear. His amps are expensive but it seems he took a personal approach based on blackface / dumble type of amps. If I lived near him I would go there for sure for him to build me something according to my needs - and knowing you can always go back and change some details it's awesome (DO IT!)

I think the greatest example of what we are talking about here is Dumble amps that sell for ridiculous prices. Once someone asked Larry Carlton about Dumble and he said something like "it's an upgraded Twin Reverb". Good marketing does the rest - just look to the huge amount of builders that sell Dumble clones at ridiculous prices...

Patrick2 · #29 01-16-2012, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

I agree new it's best for the road - but there lots of amp builders that can build you a good blackface replica and voice it the way you want it for less than the Carr price. I assume it's a great amp but I think it's pure marketing saying "we resolved the bass and reverb on blackface amps" like they discovered the end of oil dependence...

I have heard nothing but great things about Fuchs. Vic Juris highly endorses his amps for jazz and that man knows gear. His amps are expensive but it seems he took a personal approach based on blackface / dumble type of amps. If I lived near him I would go there for sure for him to build me something according to my needs - and knowing you can always go back and change some details it's awesome (DO IT!)

I think the greatest example of what we are talking about here is Dumble amps that sell for ridiculous prices. Once someone asked Larry Carlton about Dumble and he said something like "it's an upgraded Twin Reverb". Good marketing does the rest - just look to the huge amount of builders that sell Dumble clones at ridiculous prices...

If Larry Carlton truly believed that Dumble amps were upgraded Twin Reverbs, he would be playing through an upgraded Twin Reverb. If you just take a walk through history, and see what Howard Dumble and/or Ken Fischer did to capture that Dumble - Train Wreck (respectively) sound, tone and following . . . it becomes crystal clear why they were held to the level of esteem they were. Their willingness to reach for more, to continue to experiment, to do all of the things that conventional amp builder don't want to or can't afford to do. Their amps are magical. That's why some of them fetch well over $20,000 . . . . (well, one of the reasons anyway. Cork sniffer snob appeal also comes into play).

Andy Fuchs is well on his way to similar status. Difference being, Andy is still trying to keep his amps affordable and achievable to those of less financial means. However, with that said . . . if you go up to Clifton NJ, and ask Andy to build you a Train Wreck, or a Dumble . . . bring your check book. Because he can and he will do it.

jorgemg1984 · #30 01-16-2012, 05:28 PM

That sentence about Carlton is supposed to be true... I bet a Dumble is awesomme but 20k?! Really?! I mean how many great sounds were recorded without Dumbles? Maybe one day I will play trough one and change my mind!

Do you plan on getting a Fuchs? I would love to try one of his amps, I know he had a jazz model for a while.