Good JAZZ pickup for a telecaster?

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by Double 07

Looked to me like he was playing a vintage Guild semi-hollow guitar with DeArmond HB's....

Wow that is one sharp eye you've got there

I'm pretty sure the guitarist in the clip is Nathan Page. I stumbled across this clip on youtube because I've been using the tune "days of wine and roses" as a case-study, checking out different versions inlcluding wes, scofield, frisell. My favorite solo on that tune turned out to be some unknown dude named Nathan page. I love both his sound and playing.

I have been wondering why he taped up the f-holes?! Whether it was part of his personal sound or simply a quick solution to feedback problems or something in that particular TV studio (actually it's from Danish TV... I'm Danish BTW and I don't recall Danish TV ever being that interesting )

And yes it is funny how different folks perceive tone. What to others is warm, full, fat or whatnot is often to me sterile, metalic, twangy, dead or boring etc.. Pat Methenys sound I would describe as sterile and boring no doubt (though the man can play obviously ).

About my own sound: Well I'm pretty sure it will improve with the new pup. Besides I just came back from Buenos Aires (where I live it's hard to find anything) and bought a lot of stuff: Fender Flatwound strings (1st time I try flats), lots of different fat picks, new pots, new tuners and not least a Cube40xl

[Double 07]

You would describe Metheny's sound as boring? Oh wow! The guy has got about 14 Grammies or there abouts. He plays to larger crowds than any other jazz guitarist on the planet, save for maybe George Benson. I'm sure he definitely attracts the largest live audiences of any instrumental jazz guitarist on the planet. Obviously there are millions upon millions of people who would use more flattering adjectives to describe his sound.

Hey I'm totally for everyone finding their own musical voice. A musical voice that suits their own personal taste, that's part of what makes being a musician so wonderful. It's a very personal thing, your own voice that you get to share with others. However given Metheny's unparalleled success as an instrumental jazz guitarist I would say there are alot of people who would describe his sound as anything but boring. Especially since he did it without caving into the music industry pressure to water down his jazz into something that "the suits" might think would be "more marketable". Ground-breaking is an adjective I would use to describe his sound. I think it's a beautiful sound really.

[ronjazz]

Which of Metheny's sounds is boring and sterile? His synth? His nylon-string? His acoustic? His baritone? his Gibson? His Ibanez? His Picasso? His 12-string?

This is one of the silliest statements I've seen here, especially in light of how instantly identifiable he is by his hundreds of thousands of fans.

[Double 07]

I'm with you on that ronjazz.

It can be hard to put sound into words. Warm, cold, thin, fat, what do they mean to each individual in terms of sound? That kind of thing can be hard to pin down without hearing the actual sound examples. When I say a "fat" sound I mean fat as opposed to a "thin" sound.

To my ears this clip is a good example of a "fat sound" vs a "thin sound". I would describe Metheny's sound in this video as "fat" because the notes, especially on the high strings, sound bigger/rounder, have more "girth" to them somehow. Goodrick's tone, on the other hand, I would describe as thin sounding; a sound I'm not really into. Respect to Mick, he's a fantastic player, I'm just not into this thin kind of guitar sound.

YouTube Video

A "warm" sound to me is one that's more rich in harmonics and prolly not over trebly, though I still like a nice chime to the notes. Like I said hard to put into words .

Oh but Mick is definitely "fatter" than Pat in another way

[jorgemg1984]

People do have different ways of describing and hearing tone - and also everyone has a different idea of a "jazz sound". Lots of people think Joe Pass is the best jazz sounde others George Benson or Wes or Jim Hall or Pat Metheny or Kurt Rosenwinkel...

I know lots of people don't like Pat's sound. I actually like it but it has changed a lot over the years (I am just talking about his archtop sound) - it's much brighter on some albuns than on others. I also love his playing specially when he plays in trio format with the archtop (his live recording with Grenadier and Stewart is SO GOOD). The big groups or the synth / nylon / Piscasso thing bugs me sometimes...

But he is one of the most important guitar players of all time IMHO. He did stuff no one had ever imagined before... Probably compared to what Rosenwinkel is doing these days.

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by ronjazz

This is one of the silliest statements I've seen here, especially in light of how instantly identifiable he is by his hundreds of thousands of fans.

Well I'd say the same about the statement above.

It seems like you're trying (both double 07 and ronjazz) to convince me that pizza DOES taste good because:

1) YOU love it..
2) 1000s of other people love it..

So how can one NOT like it? That is just "silly"

Well newsflash: People are different!! What is gold to you is shit to others and vice versa. It's as simple as that. I'd get used to that fact if I was you.

PS: BTW I wouldn't describe his SYNTH sound as sterile and boring, it's just plain awful and tasteless. When he starts doing THAT it's time to hit the fast farward button

[Double 07]

Originally Posted by Double 07

Hey I'm totally for everyone finding their own musical voice. A musical voice that suits their own personal taste, that's part of what makes being a musician so wonderful. It's a very personal thing, your own voice that you get to share with others.

First time I've quoted myself on this forum lol. Heey I'm for everyone finding their own voice. I think I said that in a previous post. Freedom to be who you are, that's important in life and also a big part of what musical expression is all about. It's cool aniss, like what you like, be who you are inside, love who you are and express that in the world; in your music too. Go for it bro! I don't think anything could be more life affirming than that. Life, at it's best, is about freedom to be who you really are, express what you really feel inside, to love that and to express that in the world. I'm all about that bro!

Hey and if you don't like pizza or Pat Metheny's tone I would be the last person to say that you "have to like his tone or eat pizza for that matter. Hopefully that kind of thinking went out with the Nazis. RIP

[aniss1001]

Hey,

Just got my guitar back from the luthier with the new DS PAF II humbucker, new DiMarzio pots and new Gotoh tuners.

The tuners are AWESOME. The old ones barely worked since I put on the .012 strings. They were tough and squeeqy. These ones are just smooth.

The pup definately sounds a lot better and well "fuller" but not really more jazzy or darker as I had thought. Dunno.

I think there is a problem with the tone control. It was there before the change also. When I turn it down a lot it seems to completely kill the sound / tone. Don't know how to describe it. I thought it was because the old pots were of inferior quality but since the problem persist even now I really have no idea why? Any ideas?

Here is a photo for now. It's not entirely finished. For instance it has no knobs right now. I'm going back there monday. I will try to post some sound tests later on. I really hope to be able to solve the tone control problem somehow Perhaps it's some other electronic component that is the problem?

[PTChristopher]

Hi Aniss,

Hope all is well.

>>> problem with the tone control. It was there before the change also. When I turn it down a lot it seems to completely kill the sound / tone. Any ideas?

Sure. Try a dopey-named, but very useful tone control circuit. Use the original (so not the "modified") one. You'll get a more useful range of control.

It took me a while to wade through all the online wiring diagrams to find an actual schematic. The pots in your guitar will be fine (although the guitar will also sound better with 250K pots in both positions). You'll need to get two caps and a resistor. The values in the schematic will work just fine with your PU's.

Chris

[pingu]

Thats interesting what cct do teles normally have .........

[aniss1001]

OK! Thanks a lot for the reply...

I guess I'll simply HAVE to do it if that is the only way to get a decent tone control But I don't understand why this is neccesary?! I mean other guitars don't seem have this problem even with the same unmodded circuit.

Why do you think my tone control is THAT bad? COULD it be simply a bad cap or resistor or something that simply needs changing? I'm not much of an electronics wiz, though I do know the basics, and I don't like the idea of replacing the entire circuit. But I certainly don't have more money to spend on a luthier to do it for me.

And I bought these 2 new DiMarzio 500K pots (quite expensively) because they were recommended by the luthier and besides it seems to be the common practice to use 500K pots with this setup. Just don't get why I was told to buy 500K pots if 250K pots simply sound BETTER as you say?

Sorry to bombard you with questions like this I just feel kinda sad and frustrated right now because I thought I would have a decent guitar by now given the amount of time and money I have spent

PS: Hope all is well with you too Chriss

[SamBooka]

I have had tone controls that act too much like a volume controls as well.. I want a tone that takes off just a little high end.. that is why I use .010mF caps instead of .022 or .033.. but I will admit that I am the only person I have talked to who like this approach.

I havent tried the greasebucket (nor have I had to) so I cant comment. I usually take the simplest approach to a problem first because I am lazy.

[aniss1001]

OK! Here is small audio test I just recorded with my USB guitar link and Guitar Rig software. Sorry about the lousy playing I'm just not really in the mood to play at all (more like forgetting about playing guitar untill I can afford decent equipment)...

Anyway at first I play a bit with the tone control at full and then I turn it all the way down. Should be pretty obvious...

It seems that there is barely any difference in tone if I turn it down just a bit. And when I turn it down more it just eats the sound completely as you can hear...

[Insufferable_Rhythm]

The audio clip you've posted does not sound abnormal to me, using the typical tone circuit at its extremes.

Could you post a clip demonstrating turning the control down "just a bit"?

[PTChristopher]

Hey Aniss,

Deep breaths there man; this will definitely all work out. There is nothing terminally dopey about what you are doing or what you expect in the end.

>>> COULD it be simply a bad cap or resistor or something that simply needs changing?

No.

Your tone control sounds exactly as I'd expect. I would not like it much either, but you may find that there is a sweet spot around "7" or "8".

The guitar and PU sound really quite good to me. I mean a good solid tele/HB platform - but yes, in need of some roll back on the highs. And really try a Proplec if you haven't. Very cheap.

>>> And I bought these 2 new DiMarzio 500K pots (quite expensively) because they were recommended by the luthier and besides it seems to be the common practice to use 500K pots with this setup. Just don't get why I was told to buy 500K pots if 250K pots simply sound BETTER as you say?

You may not agree with me about the 250K. It is my opinion - and probably mentioned earlier in this thread. Very slightly less high end, and far more useful taper on the controls. Again, many disagree. In my opinion, your luthier was trying to do the right thing for you, we just disagree a little.

>>> I thought I would have a decent guitar by now

You almost certainly do. It just will take a little more calm fooling with things. Not much money involved at all.

I definitely know where you are with this. I have hit frustration on pretty much every project I have ever done. But if you were chasing something too stupid for words, you'd definitely hear about it here. (Which would be in words, which would be ironic I guess.)

Really, a tele and a PAF is a great basic concept. It will get there.

The tone control is described rather oddly by Fender. But in a nutshell: It limits the total high end roll off even at "0". It prevents a boom-y sound you can get with some guitar/amp combinations. It changes the resonant frequency of the whole guitar/cable/amp circuit (only when the tone control is below "10") in a way that I feel gives a more prominent midrange as you roll the tone down. Nice for both chords and single note runs and less of the lingering shimmer you can sometimes get in a tele even with the tone control down way past usable levels.

All in my opinion.

Chris

[aniss1001]

OK! here is sample of the tone control turned to about 2/3. Not much happens untill I turn it to around 1/2 and then it quickly becomes this muted sound you heard before.

I also noticed that the the problem is MUCH more audible with my Cube40 than it is when I use Guitar Rig. That is when I play with the Cube and the tone at full it sounds VERY treble-ish (even with the treble on the Cube set to zero) and has an exagerated amount of attack and I just can't reach the "sweet spot" with the tone control before it starts eating the sound. And generally it sounds better with Guitar Rig than my Cube now. VERY opposite of before the modification. Haha go figure

[PTChristopher]

I understand. My opinion is still the same - try the circuit in the pic a few posts back. The parts should cost very little. There will be a difference between 500K and 250K for the tone pot (the .01uf bypass will work a little differently as you turn the tone down), but this should be minor.

I suggest that you just stay with the pot that is in there. This is all easy to try and to reverse if you are unhappy with it.

[aniss1001]

Hi again Chris,

I took a couple of deep breaths. I guess I was just disappointed because I though it would sound great when I plugged it into my new Cube40 and that I would finally stop worrying about equipment and just PLAY.

And I don't know why it bothers me so much that I have to build a new circuit. It does seem very simple compared to what I have done earlier. I actually built a robot once and the last few days I've been looking at circuits because I plan to buy a RAT clone and mod the crap out of it myself because the guy who builds these clones is charging me too much for the mods I wan't. I'll be posting more about that project later on :P

Anyway I guess it has to do with the fact that I don't even know what a guitar looks like inside and I'm afraid to mess something up. Besides I JUST finished modding it severely and now I'm at it again. Sigh. But I think I'll do it. I also have a friend with better soldering skills who promised to help me out with the RAT project so I guess this is just is little appetizer.

I don't think the pup is the problem either. Defininately a powerful beast with lots of everything (lows, mids and highs) it seems.

I also checked the manual that came with the pup and it clearly states that one should use 500K pots. So I can hardly blame the luthier. Personally I don't have enough knowledge to neither agree or disagree with anything on this matter .

Like I said in the previous post I can't seem to reach the "sweet spot" before it turns into this awful muted sound. At 7-8 it sounds pretty much the same as at 10.

Ah I googled this Proplec and you're reffering to the picks right? Don't think I can get them here. But when I was in Buenos Aires and bought the other stuff I also bought a lot of different jazz style picks. When I was playing with the other pup I liked to use the hardest ones to compensate for the weak pup, but now I kinda like the softer ones actually.

Anyway thank a lot for your advice really

PS: I'm also trying out flatwounds for the 1st time. Not sure I like them. The lower strings sound a bit dead to me. But they FEEL really nice though.

[mattymel]

If you have a HB in the neck, you def want a 500k pot otherwise it will sound too muddy (IMO). This is the inherent problem with HB in teles. You have a super trebly bridge PU, and a pretty dark neck PU. Finding a balance between the pot equation is tricky. Enough so that after the whole fiasco I ended up wanting a standard tele PU in the neck. Then again I want MY tele to be able to do things besides jazz. But that's just me...

They do make 350k pots if you want it in between. But they are STILL too dark. The tele is hard to improve on...I prefer bickert's sound before he switched to a paf.

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by mattymel

You have a super trebly bridge PU, and a pretty dark neck PU. Finding a balance between the pot equation is tricky.

Hmm.. Well I don't care about the bridge pickup at all. Don't plan to use it ever. I hope that simplyfies the task a bit ???

Ah and did you try out both a 250K and a 500K pot for comparison?

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by SamBooka

I have had tone controls that act too much like a volume controls as well.. I want a tone that takes off just a little high end.. that is why I use .010mF caps instead of .022 or .033.. but I will admit that I am the only person I have talked to who like this approach.

Just wondering what would be your opinion on this Chris? Perhaps in combination with the greasebucket mod (hehe still can't get used to that name )

[PTChristopher]

I certainly think you could try .01uF in place of your stock cap (which may well be as big as .047uf on the tele clone).

It will both reduce the total treble cut and change the slope of the cut to focus it more on the high end.

But there is quite a bit going on in this RLC (resistor, inductor, capactor) AC circuit despite the small number of components.

So in the GB circuit, you can see the resistor in series with the .022uf cap. this also restricts the total depth of the treble cut and changes the slope of the treble cut a little as well.

But the .1uf bypass cap is no small thing in the GB circuit. It creates a bypass for the tone control as you turn it down, and changes the resonance of the entire RLC circuit (so will have a bit different effect depending on the input impedance of your amp, which along with the cable, is a big part of the picture.)

This post is getting pretty dull, but I think the important thing is that:

- Sure Drew's (S. Booka, "Mr. Booka" to his friends) suggestion will make a difference and is in the direction you are looking for.

- The GB circuit has some other advantages as well, and I happen to like them.

But these things are SO EASY to do, you may as well try both in one sitting.

The inside of your Tele is about as complicated as the inside of a shoe. It will be very easy to figure out what is going on. Soldering is absurdly easy on a Tele as well.

On the Proplec - Yes the pick. I only tried them about a month or two ago. I am really happy with them, but for some they are probably too dark.

They are very cheap and easy to get here, so I now have a pile of them. PM me with an address and I'll send a few in an envelope. Maybe they will get through the douane to you?

I have no idea if I get PM's from this site, so if you send a PM, let me know in this thread as well.

Chris

[mattymel]

Originally Posted by aniss1001

Hmm.. Well I don't care about the bridge pickup at all. Don't plan to use it ever. I hope that simplyfies the task a bit ???

Ah and did you try out both a 250K and a 500K pot for comparison?

well just go with a 500k and be done. the bridge will be like a needle in the eye, but if this is your jazz axe, who cares. at some point you might think about just getting the highest output bridge PU you can find to even it out a bit.

yes, i tried the 250k first (as thats what comes stock in pretty much every tele). the HB sounded pretty good (as it was a low wind Lollar=brighter/more definition than most), but to me it already seemed like some of the tone was rolled off to the point that if i actually DID roll it a bit, it was MUD.

from my experience, i want my pickups to be as defined as possible so that there is always the option to roll some brightness off either on the tone, or on the amp. nothing worse than not having any more treble to add to the equation. though on a tele putting a HB in the neck is about the only way to approach that...

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

On the Proplec - Yes the pick. I only tried them about a month or two ago. I am really happy with them, but for some they are probably too dark.

They are very cheap and easy to get here, so I now have a pile of them. PM me with an address and I'll send a few in an envelope. Maybe they will get through the douane to you?

I have no idea if I get PM's from this site, so if you send a PM, let me know in this thread as well.

Chris

I sent you a PM. Thanks a lot man. Sounds great.

And I suppose you mean "aduana" (=customs)? Well the customs here are kind of like a mafia. They pretty much do with your stuff as they please in my experience. But I doubt that a letter with a few picks should create too much attention. Unless off course the crook (sorry.. customs officer) who checks it out has a son that plays jazz guitar and he decides the picks would make a nice B-day present or something. Haha nothing surprises me anymore...

And yes I'll definately try out the other circuit. Something has to be done. Right now I'm too tired to think so I'll get back once I have slept and diggested the last posts regarding caps and whatnot.

Thanks again Take care

[PTChristopher]

Aniss,

Got the PM, picks go out Monday - wrapped in a pointless blathering letter of some sort to maybe calm down the aduana "professionals".

Please let us know what you think (assuming you get them).

Chris

[jorgemg1984]

Pro Plec are awesome! Only one guy sells them in Europe and I have ordered from him in December and so far nothing... I think I will have to order from the US, they are available in much more websites than 2 years ago when I started using them.

[aniss1001]

Hi again Chris,

OK! I did some research on this GB control and it definately seems like the way to go. From what I could tell the main (if not only difference?) would be that the GB doesn't increase the lows when rolling of the highs. Is that correct?

Your last post was a bit technical to me and I didn't quite understand it all. For instance..

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

I certainly think you could try .01uF in place of your stock cap (which may well be as big as .047uf on the tele clone).

It will both reduce the total treble cut and change the slope of the cut to focus it more on the high end.

In this case you're reffering to simply changing the cap in the existing circuit rigth? And is there only one (unlike in the GB)?

And why would I wanna reduce the total treble cut? It seems to me the problem is that it currently doesn't reduce the treble enough until the tone knob is around 3-4 and it starts sounding like the amp is wrapped in plastic or something.

I'm also starting to think that maybe it's the amp that doesn't go well with the pup. I probably should have waited to buy the amp until I could have tried it out with the new pup and all. It was just unpractical so here I am. Current I'm playing with the amp treble setting on zero to avoid an this piercing sound of the higher strings. And meanwhile I have the tone know set to around 3. All in all this makes the lower strings sound very "muddy" (in lack of a better word), but it's the only way to calm down the higher strings.

Anyway sometime this week I'll go shopping for parts for the GB circuit. Should I get some caps in different sizes/values to experiment with? In that case which would you recommend? And in general what kind of caps would be appropiate (as I recall there are many different types of caps)?

And yes for now atleast I'll have to go with my 500K pots. Don't feel like spending another 25 bucks + shipping (I can only get them in Buenos Aires) on pots right now.

Ah! And thanks a lot (again) for the picks. Really that is most generous of you

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by mattymel

well just go with a 500k and be done....

OK! Thanks for the info

[Peter C]

Pat Metheny sterile and boring???

[aniss1001]

Originally Posted by Peter C

Pat Metheny sterile and boring???

Sigh! Here we go again... Yes VERY much so... in MY personal subjective opinion that is off course... I WASN'T trying to make an objective, absolute truth out of it!!!

I generally think that the man has lousy taste. In guitar sound, composition style (can't stand Metheny group), hair and clothes for starters. Again.. in MY personal subjective opinion.

I'm NOT saying that he isn't a brilliant guitarist though.

But go ahead and call me silly if you like...