Are build threads of any practical interest?

[PTChristopher]

So here is the rough tailpiece viewed from the underside. The brass inlay will allow me to ground the strings if I need to - and it reinforces the ebony so I can shape it a bit without worrying about failure under load.

I'll drill it out for string slots, then do a little shaping on the front and sides. A little gun bluing will make the brass a very dark gray.

The kevlar cord will get epoxied in and will be the attachment to the body.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

So I got some ebony parts made.

There was a thread on compensated saddles earlier, so I took a pic of the shape of this one. I use T-I .012 flats and they are really best compensated with only the small deviation from a straight line, so that's what I made.

They would also sound just fine with a straight bridge or the Sadowsky bridge. All well within typical tollerances.

Of note is the glamorous look making ebony parts imparts to the hands.

I shot the last coats of clear lacquer last Friday and as best I can tell it has already shrunk back about as much as I would expect in about 10 days to 2 weeks. So the claim by Cardinal (finishes) that their lacquer is faster than others may be pretty accurate. I may be in some danger of finishing this guitar on the weekend.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

Oh, the thing with three holes is a cleat that will have the lower strap button in it and have the kevlar tailpiece cord around it. Three screws since I do not trust the strap button screw with this job.

The thing with two holes is a guard for the rim of the guitar where the kevlar cord comes around to the tailpiece.

The rough cut nut is horn. Not as good as bone, but I am slave to my color theme.

The PG is very small. I really only touch a small area of a pickguard, so no need for all the real estate of a typical pickguard.

Chris

[oldane]

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

The rough cut nut is horn. Not as good as bone, but I am slave to my color theme.

I have never seen horn for a nut. Is is hard enough? Did you consider Graphtechs Tusq nut blanks - they are black so they would fit the color scheme? Or ebony for that matter?

[kris]

Chris,
Great work.
Interested in the sound.
Jazzingly
Kris

[PTChristopher]

[OD] >>> horn for a nut. Is is hard enough?

Noting how quickly horn picks wear down, then horn is probably marginal for a nut. Just cutting it to nut shape was a little weird, so it may not handle well in the end. I just had never tried using it in this way.

>>>Did you consider Graphtechs Tusq nut blanks

Yes, I have a few and they are my solution if the horn doesn't work out.

>>> Or ebony for that matter?

Sure, it works - especially if you put super-thin CA into the slots after you are done. Not normal brico-center super glue, but a super thin specialty cyanoacrylate that does not just sit on top of ebony.

Thanks for the thoughts - I'll let you know how the horn works out.

Kris: I'll post some sort of sound as soon as it is playable.

Chris

[Meggy]

I think the dark violin-burst finish looks very classy indeed. Looks like beautiful work with the ebony parts too, I like the ebony pickup cover, and the classically shaped tail piece too. A very refined look you are going to achieve I think.

[kris]

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

[OD] >>> horn for a nut. Is is hard enough?

Noting how quickly horn picks wear down, then horn is probably marginal for a nut. Just cutting it to nut shape was a little weird, so it may not handle well in the end. I just had never tried using it in this way.

>>>Did you consider Graphtechs Tusq nut blanks

Yes, I have a few and they are my solution if the horn doesn't work out.

>>> Or ebony for that matter?

Sure, it works - especially if you put super-thin CA into the slots after you are done. Not normal brico-center super glue, but a super thin specialty cyanoacrylate that does not just sit on top of ebony.

Thanks for the thoughts - I'll let you know how the horn works out.

Kris: I'll post some sort of sound as soon as it is playable.

Chris

Thanks Chris.
I like ebony...:-)

[PTChristopher]

>>> the ebony pickup cover

The PU is a Duncan-made Benedetto S6, with a black plastic cover. It had a sort of wood grain molded into it and the brand name in gray printing.

So I took the surface down slightly and finished with about a 1500 grit pad (so around a P400 grit paper equivalent).

I suppose I could take a touch more plastic away and lay on a layer of wood, but it looks OK as is I think.

I wish grit numbers made more sense when comparing pads, vs. paper, vs. wet/dry paper, vs. compound.

Chris.

[Meggy]

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

>>> the ebony pickup cover

The PU is a Duncan-made Benedetto S6, with a black plastic cover. It had a sort of wood grain molded into it and the brand name in gray printing.

So I took the surface down slightly and finished with about a 1500 grit pad (so around a P400 grit paper equivalent).

I suppose I could take a touch more plastic away and lay on a layer of wood, but it looks OK as is I think.

I wish grit numbers made more sense when comparing pads, vs. paper, vs. wet/dry paper, vs. compound.

Chris.

Well, you fooled me anyway which has to be a good sign - I think it looks just fine as it is.

[jasonc]

Hey Chris, did you use the Cardinal laquer? If so how did you feel about it? I've got a gallon of it sitting here waiting on my next couple to get to the finishing stages. I'm particularily interested in the buffing in seven to ten days claim.

[PTChristopher]

Jason,

Yes, I used the Cardinal. I ended up thinning about 5%.

- Flow out is very good. I could have gone to 10% thinner I suppose, but I also think you could arguably shoot this right from the can if you do not mind a little extra time on the P400 grit to take down the orange peel.

- I used Trans-Tint liquid dyes. They mix in pretty much the same as they do with other lacquers. Maybe a touch more need to agitate the dye to get it totally dispersed, but maybe I just was watching more carefully because it was a new lacquer.

- There is no extra odor (not solvent, but something else) such as I notice in Behlen/Mohawk after a few days.

- I noticed considerable shrink-back after two days, more than I would have expected even though it is very dry here this time of year. But I have noticed almost no additional shrink in the last 4 days, which is odd since I normally expect to see a steady shrink for a good 5 to 7 days. (Which is why you get bit in the rear if you try to rush the rub-out of a repair,...) It does seem that so far everything is happening in a little over 1/2 the time vs. what I am used to.

- I did a light sand to break the gloss and get much more surface area for drying. You can definitely feel a difference in the Cardinal vs. Behlen/Mohawk and McFadden. When sanding, the Cardinal feels a bit more like vinyl sealer - sort of a softness to the dust. This makes me wonder about how hard the final finish will be. One thing I like about Behlen/ Mohawk "Stringed Instrument" stuff is that it has some give yet also has no goopy or soft surface feel on the neck. We'll see, in a few days, how the Cardinal is.

I'll get serious about the finish tomorrow (so exactly 7 days) and let you know how it goes. I'll go with micro mesh, then 3M Perfect-It 3000 (the normal cut, not the fast cut), then McGuiars Scratch X.

I know this is not a Luthio-forum, so sorry to the general population for the tedious details - but I did not want to be vague to Jason.

Oh, and for repairs: In my opinion it may not really be any faster to repair or drop-fill with Cardinal. I think that a big part of repair is waiting for the original lacquer to also shrink back (after getting exposed to solvent) before rubbing out. So even if Cardinal is faster, I think it may still be necessary to wait (and try to explain this to the customer,...) the usual time before finishing the work.

All in my opinion.

Chris

[jasonc]

Thanks Chris. Definately let me know how the buffing goes. Because I hate the wait time on Behlen/Mohawk SIL.

[PTChristopher]

So the Cardinal lacquer does indeed seem buff-able at seven days. It is not super-hard yet, but I would expect that to take weeks anyway. It is certainly hard enough to buff, and harder than Behlen "SIL" after a week.

It is hard to say how it will feel on a neck, but so far it seems like great stuff.

I found a flaw in two places on my mahogany grain fill. Just oversight on my part, but there are some extremely small, but very deep holes in the finish in a couple of places that are invisible until you start to get things shiny, then they are still tiny, but now white (filled with polishing compound). So a minor goof up in the early prep. I'll check closely and see if I can just re-spray some clear in these areas. In any case, I won't be putting the thing together until late next week since this is well worth fixing even though it is very hard to see.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

Oh, and I did some shaping on the horn nut, and it is too much of a pain to work with the material. It shapes fine, and looks like it will slot OK, but polishing is a chore vs. other materials since you can sort of see the flake-layered structure to it in places.

Also, as oldane mentioned, it may not be so amazing as a material choice anyway.

So the nut will be black Tusq. I have a few blanks around somewhere.

Since I am going to shoot a little more clear in two places, I think I'll also set in a piece of ebony where the tailpiece cord wraps around the rim of the guitar. I had made an ebony guard for this spot, but I think I'll go for a glued-in reinforcement instead. Just more of the fun on-the-fly details when you are building for your own use. No spec., no schedule. Well, maybe a schedule in that I'd best get this done before I get into business projects for this year.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

So I am far enough along that I am trying the fit-up of the parts onto the guitar.

I did not like the way the tailpiece was working out. There was limited, but sufficient clearance for the string 'ball-ends' under the tailpiece, but I just did not much like the look of it. So I did some destructive testing of the epoxy mount for the kevlar cord - quite strong.

I made a new tailpiece with a bit more presence (whatever that means). This one has the ball-ends above the tailpiece and the strings exiting below.

On the bottom you can sort of see the very faint "M" of the epoxied-in cord. The brass inlay is treated with Birchwood-Casey "Super Blue" to tone it down some.

So a little more dry time on the lacquer touch-up and I can sand and buff the whole mess, then get to assembling.

Chris.

[PTChristopher]

So done and playing it. NGD pics on the weekend.

Plays great, sounds great. A bit more midrange punch than expected, and a bit less output than expected (but very good sound) from the PU.

Very interesting acoustic character through the amp. The top definitely rewards a moderate touch, and gets a little overly punchy/percussive if you really lay into the strings.

Fun project.

[Meggy]

Looking forward to pics! I did like the first tailpiece you made I have to admit, but I can see what you mean with the final version - it does have a more detailed, substantial kind of look, and keeps the violin-esque shape, so I like that one too. From your description, it sounds like a great guitar - personally I like an instrument that does not have to be played hard to get a good response.

[PTChristopher]

Hah, I also thought that the second tailpiece had a post apocalypse city-scape look to it - especially with string ball ends in each hole.

Sooooo,...

I made another tailpiece on Thursday night.

Mrs. PTChristopher said, "That's three, right?"

I agreed that the more normal ratio was one tailpiece per guitar.

Anyway, I made another one with less of an "alien robots attack Tokyo" look to it. It works, and looks OK.

It is a little alarming to see how my modest (maybe around 150 pounds) T-I JS-112 strings yank the kevlar cord so tightly. We lead a sheltered life with metal tailpieces hiding the significant total 6-string tug involved.

Pics tonight or tomorrow. I need to record something as well to give an idea of the sound. This thing LOVES the Princeton Reverb. It has a slight bit more of a percussive small-box sound vs. the Amuedo sample of the SS-15 on Youtube, but it also has more of a complex character with a full bass and clear highs.

But for better or worse, all the expression is in the midrange. I like it. If I could have only one guitar though, I'd make one at 16" and a set-in HB. It would lack the midrange and acoustic character of this one, but be more universal (based on today's standards anyway.)

Chris

[PTChristopher]

And some pics. Photos make bursts look a little more blotchy than they are in person. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. On the other hand, I see a few scratches around the tailpiece that need rubbing out. You know, before it starts getting scratched up through use.

Anyway, thanks for tuning in. The project is done. Ill try to get a sound sample recorded this week. I mean, who cares about the rest if the sound does not work - so gots to have sound to finish off the thread.

Chris

[Meggy]

That's a very pretty guitar - elegant is a word that comes to mind, there is an appealing restraint about the whole thing. To me it does have a bit of the classical instrument look about it, like an old cello maybe, which is rather nice. I think the final tailpiece design is your best one too - it really works with the clean lines, plus I just noticed the slight curve/flair to the side of the pickguard which is a nice touch. The headstock shape is great too and I like those tuning machines.

Enough waffling from me - but congratulations on the build, truely impressive, and I'm looking forward to some sound clips (I still have to do some for my strat). I do know exactly what you mean about the problems of photographing guitars, it must look amazing in the flesh.

[PTChristopher]

Hi Megs,

>>> those tuning machines

I really like the light weight and smoother operation of the Grover 18:1 Sta-Tites. They are a completely different tuner vs. the unamazing Grover 14:1 Sta-Tite.

The Waverly tuners are also quite fine, but the cost is out of line in my opinion.

So I wanted to keep the neck and headstock weight down as far as practical and these Schertler tuners were the lightest thing in black (at least on the day that I looked.) I'd have used Grover 18:1 Sta-Tites if they were available in black.

The Schertlers as good as the 18:1 Grovers, with a minor issue.

The holes on the posts are sharp enough to put a bit too much of a dent in the .012 E string as the strings turns go across a post hole. I broke a string doing the setup. So I smoothed the hole only on the high E tuner. They all are sharp, but not enough to matter on other strings. Fortunately, it is easy to blacken the filed area around the hole, so my hardware looks OK.

The 18:1 ratio means nothing without a look at post diameter. These have a fairly narrow post, so the net effect is of a very subtle tuner with easy and fine adjustability.

So now, I think I'll make another with a 16" lower bout, Alaskan Yellow Cedar for the top, a carved back (more of a smoothed Strat ergonomic), and maybe a tan/amber burst with a brighter overall look. Probably a bit more binding or inlay decor as well.

EDIT: And maybe drop the bridge break angle down a bit. This one is at 13, so maybe drop to 11 or even 10 - it seems to make no noticeable difference, so may as well lighten up the load. For any lurking detail guys out there, T-I JS-112 strings and a 13 degree break makes for about 31 pounds of downward force. Pick up 31 pounds of potatoes and imagine them sitting on top of your guitar bridge for years on end,... The calculated force agrees with the actual measured force on my guitar - go figure.

Oh and, Cardinal lacquer is a keeper. It has some minor quirks, but really great stuff, and as fast as they claim. Woof.

In the meantime, I better get some design work going to make some income this year - so limited guitar shop time for a while.

Thanks for the conversation on this. I think it is probably an out-of-place thread on this forum, but what the heck.

Chris

[jasonc]

Looks great Chris. It makes we want to get out in the booth and spend some quality trigger-time with the Cardinal lacquer. Maybe I'll spray some test panels this week.

[oldane]

Very nice work indeed. I wish I had the talent and training for such woodworking. It would be great fun making guitars in my retirement which is only a few years away. I finished and assembled a partscaster from Warmoth and other parts a couple of years ago, and it has become one of my most loved guitars - partly because it plays and sounds good and partly because it's assembled by myself to my own specs. It was a very rewarding process so I can understand you being pleased with this one.

So you ended up with the Tusq nut?

Typically one would use for example a Sacconi cello tailpiece adjuster for tailpiece fastening when not using a screwed in tailpiece (I think Bob Benedetto is marketing it under his own name these days). The kevlar strap is an interesting alternative. Can it keep the guitar in tune or does it stretch elastically?

[Jazz_175]

It's a lovely guitar!
I have a question regarding the pickguard and pickup, I don't know if you already talked about that.
I can't see any volume or tone knob, so how do you adjust your sound?
My other question is: Is the pickguard parallel to the top or rather oblique, going downward towards the center of the guitar?

[PTChristopher]

Hiya OD:

>>> would be great fun making guitars in my retirement

In my view this is very do-able. I suggest skipping the incredible tedium (or tooling) of slotting FB's accurately. The rest is fun and can be done with fewer tools than you might think. I built my first guitar when I was in my teens and used a washing machine for a clamp on some assemblies. Hey, it worked.

>>> So you ended up with the Tusq nut?

Yes, you called it right. The horn was a pain to work with.

>>> kevlar strap is an interesting alternative. Can it keep the guitar in tune or does it stretch elastically?

The kevlar has essentially zero stretch. There is some bedding-in of the kevlar to the polyester outer cord wrap, and the wooden cleat, but after that happens, the tuning is very stable. This kevlar (around 2.5 to 3mm) wrapped in polyester is sold as an upright bass tailpiece gut. Typically it is knotted, but I epoxied it into the tailpiece to save the bulk of a knot. I estimated the bedding-in that might happen and made the kevlar slightly short. it worked out just fine.

The last 3 cm. or so of the kevlar on each end of the cord is soaked in cyanoacrylate to attach it to the polyester outer sleeve and to the epoxy holding it all together. Seems fine.

Ciao Jazz 175,

>>> I can't see any volume or tone knob, so how do you adjust your sound?

There are two small thumbwheels and micro pots under the pickguard. You can see them sticking out from the edge of the pickguard. It works just fine. Maybe too fiddly for some. They are small 250K Alpha pots on a "Schatten Design" circuit board. I had it in my stash of parts, but I think Stewmac sells the assembly.

I adapted it some to cut down on exposed "hot" signal area on the board, and to attach it securely, but removable for service.

>>>My other question is: Is the pickguard parallel to the top or rather oblique, going downward towards the center of the guitar?

I have it parallel to the top. I have the PU sloping slightly downward, so the bass side is about 1 or 1.5mm lower than the treble, but the pickguard is level.

I just like it that way, but players like all sorts of angles and heights to a pickguard.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

[Jason] >>> trigger-time with the Cardinal lacquer

Hi Jason,

I have noticed one odd thing. I got some witness lines in my overspray about a week after the original finish. Not huge ugly polyurethane type witness lines, but a noticeable line such as I have never had on a nitro finish.

It is extremely dry here right now, but I had thinned the overspray about 10 or ever 15% above the alleged 10% pre-reduction in the can. So I had expected no burn-in trouble.

I was baffled enough to experiment a bit with a tiny area of a third spray after the second was on there for a week. No witness line.

The only difference is that the first spray dried for about 5 days with a light scuff sand to promote lots o' drying.

Anyway, the lines I do have are very hard to find, and after further sink-back are all but invisible. But it is something to bear in mind in hyper critical repairs (who ever thought a black guitar was a good idea anyway?).

I called Cardinal, but their nitro guru is on vacation until next week. I hope to hear what they think.

Again, the effect is so slight that I will not hesitate to use the stuff.

Chris

[Soco]

looks great! Well done!

[jasonc]

Hey Chris, good to know about the witness lines. I have actually had the same problem with Behlen's SIL. Of course the time I had those problems it was on a very old lacquer finish and I probably should have used something like butyl cellosolve to really soften the old lacquer. Anyway, the goal is to not have to do any touch-ups right?

[NSJ]

Wow. that's a beaut! Nice job, Chris. Love the black binding. And the total lack of inlay.


Regarding the headstock, go Cubs!