Neck warp

[Stevebol]

How much do necks usually warp in the winter after you have to turn the furnace on? My old archtop has been together about 2 months and the neck started to warp about 2 weeks ago. The warp is in the middle of the neck and and it's hefty one with no neck reinforcement. It's about a 1/4 " thicker than another guitar I have of the same model that had a steel rod in it. I took that out and replaced it with ebony. It will be a while before that ax is put together.
Anyway, what's normal for neck warp?

Correction. I guess it's called bowing.

[oldane]

I think it's depending on the wood in the individual neck. It may well be different in two guitars of the same brand and model. I have a couple of guitars needing truss rod adjustments twice a year and a couple of other guitars which don't seem to be affected by seasonal fluctuations in humidity.To me, there seems to be a tendency that maple necks fluctuate more than mahogany necks, at least on my instruments. That is consistent with the common belief that mahogany is more stable than maple.

BTW, on one of my carved archtops the spruce top sinks a little bit in the wintertime, making a slight raise of the bridge necessary. In spring the top comes up again and the bridge must be lowered a bit. Barry Galbraith used to joke about one of his guitars which exhibited this sinking and raising of the top quite a bit, and he talked about it as his "winter guitar" whose action was too high for playing in the summer. Of course it was just that - a joke. Galbraith likely adjusted the action as needed and played the guitar all year, and besides he was used to high action when he played rhythm guitar.

[Stevebol]

Originally Posted by oldane

I think it's depending on the wood in the individual neck. It may well be different in two guitars of the same brand and model. I have a couple of guitars needing truss rod adjustments twice a year and a couple of other guitars which don't seem to be affected by seasonal fluctuations in humidity.To me, there seems to be a tendency that maple necks fluctuate more than mahogany necks, at least on my instruments. That is consistent with the common belief that mahogany is more stable than maple.

BTW, on one of my carved archtops the spruce top sinks a little bit in the wintertime, making a slight raise of the bridge necessary. In spring the top comes up again and the bridge must be lowered a bit. Barry Galbraith used to joke about one of his guitars which exhibited this sinking and raising of the top quite a bit, and he talked about it as his "winter guitar" whose action was too high for playing in the summer. Of course it was just that - a joke. Galbraith likely adjusted the action as needed and played the guitar all year, and besides he was used to high action when he played rhythm guitar.

I'm using 12-54 flatwounds so I tried lowering the tuning by about a half step. Much less bow now. Maybe there is some kind of sealer that could be put on the neck or I might route out the neck and add some reinforcement down the road.
Not sure if the fretboard is rosewood or ebony but I'd guess that it's not quality wood like the rest of the wood on the guitar. It's probably very dried out and does little to support the neck. It will be interesting to see if the other guitar with the ebony support bar holds up better over the winter.
I'll figure this out eventually.
I can see why these old Harmony and other catalog guitars are not very popular with jazz guitarists and many others. They can sound as sweet as any guitar out there but they require a ton of work.

[kambor]

+1 to oldane.

It's funny that one piece necks are so sought after by many guitar players, when in fact are less stable than multiple-piece necks.

Anyway, you should try to avoid drastic changes. When you change the guitar's environment you should let it in the case a few hours, and a few more with the lid open just by a hair, to prevent a possible twisting of the wood (and I mean sideways twisting, or worse, a crack in the top or back).

edit: if anything, you should try to glue the fingerboard again. If you don't know how, just take it to a luthier. It shouldn't be expensive, and is a relatively easy repair.

[Patrick2]

In today's age of technology . . . why would anyone tolorate a fluctuation in temp or relative humidity?? Keep your guitars in an environment with 40 to 50% relative humidity and you'll probably never need to worry about top sag or bowing due to changes in RH.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

In today's age of technology . . . why would anyone tolorate a fluctuation in temp or relative humidity??

Why, quite a few people tolerate it and for good reason. Takes energy, and a lot of it, to maintain year 'round indoor temperatures and humidity within a narrow range. That costs money, and raises environmental concerns that we don't need to discuss here because of the political implications.

Humidity in particular is difficult to regulate even if you're prepared to spend.

Best solution in the long run is probably multi-piece necks and adjustable steel truss rods.

Hell, that's how Heritage builds most of 'em -- and why they do it that way.

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by cjm

Why, quite a few people tolerate it and for good reason. Takes energy, and a lot of it, to maintain year 'round indoor temperatures and humidity within a narrow range. That costs money, and raises environmental concerns that we don't need to discuss here because of the political implications.

Humidity in particular is difficult to regulate even if you're prepared to spend.

Best solution in the long run is probably multi-piece necks and adjustable steel truss rods.

Hell, that's how Heritage builds most of 'em -- and why they do it that way.

Some responses to your rebutal . . . in no particular order; Heritages most popular and largest selling guitar, by a pretty wide margin, is their H535. Second to that is their H150. Both sport 1 piece mahog necks. It's true that their arch tops do have multiple piece necks. But, that's as much to prevent twist as it is to prevent bowing. Regarding the cost associated with keeping a guitar in a RH friendly environment . . . I would argue that it's more expensive . . not to. Regarding "Best solution in the long run is multi-piece necks and adjustable steel truss rods" . . . I would definitely agree . . . but, CF Martin sees it differently.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Some responses to your rebutal . . . in no particular order; Heritages most popular and largest selling guitar, by a pretty wide margin, is their H535. Second to that is their H150. Both sport 1 piece mahog necks. It's true that their arch tops do have multiple piece necks. But, that's as much to prevent twist as it is to prevent bowing. Regarding the cost associated with keeping a guitar in a RH friendly environment . . . I would argue that it's more expensive . . not to. Regarding "Best solution in the long run is multi-piece necks and adjustable steel truss rods . . . I would definitely agree . . . but, CF Martin sees it differently.

As a Heritage rep, you're missing a perfect opportunity to hit a lick against CF Martin.

But precise climate control can easily add $1K or more to a household's annual utility expense when capital costs are amortized and added to energy costs. If you cannot afford to protect it, you probably cannot rationally decide to own a $30K guitar.

On the other hand, a $4K guitar in the home is something the average Joe could reasonably accept a bit of risk for...the risk (not huge) of exposing the axe to seasonal environmental fluctuations versus the certainty of paying out more than the value of the guitar over a few years for "infrastructure" and energy for the privilege of maintaining temperatures within 5 degrees F year around and relative humidity at between 40 and 50%.

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by cjm

As a Heritage rep, you're missing a perfect opportunity to hit a lick against CF Martin.

You're too nice a man to be serious about that, so I know you're just foolin' about. But, anyway . . that's just not my style. CF Martin, its people and its products ain't nothin' but good . . . great is probably more like it. A true American icon. I can't think of a single bad thing to say about them.

By the way, Triggs, John D'Angelico, quite a few others have also made 1 piece maple necks. Cost is another reason most have gone to 5 piece necks. A piece of stock maple wood, large enough to make a one piece neck out of is going to be more expensive than the smaller thiner pieces that can be glued together to form a larger piece. But, the main reason is to prevent warping . . . as in twisting. The OP used the term "warp" but, I believe he misused it and really meant bowing.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

. . that's just not my style. CF Martin, its people and its products ain't nothin' but good . . . great is probably more like it. A true American icon. I can't think of a single bad thing to say about them.

That doesn't matter. Business is business. Crush the buggers before they get the jump on you from behind! Show no mercy, for they will show you none!

By the way, Triggs, John D'Angelico, quite a few others have also made 1 piece maple necks. Cost is another reason most have gone to 5 piece necks. A piece of stock maple wood, large enough to make a one piece neck out of is going to be more expensive than the smaller thiner pieces that can be glued together to form a larger piece. But, the main reason is to prevent warping . . . as in twisting. The OP used the term "warp" but, I believe he misused it and really meant bowing.

Of course, as you know, warping is due primarily to environmental factors, and multi-piece necks provide a degree of immunity to those environmental factors.

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by cjm

As a Heritage rep, you're missing a perfect opportunity to hit a lick against CF Martin.

But precise climate control can easily add $1K or more to a household's annual utility expense when capital costs are amortized and added to energy costs. If you cannot afford to protect it, you probably cannot rationally decide to own a $30K guitar.

On the other hand, a $4K guitar in the home is something the average Joe could reasonably accept a bit of risk for...the risk (not huge) of exposing the axe to seasonal environmental fluctuations versus the certainty of paying out more than the value of the guitar over a few years for "infrastructure" and energy for the privilege of maintaining temperatures within 5 degrees F year around and relative humidity at between 40 and 50%.

I just now picked up on what you added about the costs of maintaining temps and RH. Do you really think it would cost $1K per year . . . $85 bucks per month, to run a little room humidifier? Actually, it would only need to be run during winter months and only if the home was heated by forced warm air or wood fired stove. So then, now that's 5 months . . . max. That would equate to an additional $200 per month to run a little room humidifier? I think not. Even my whole house April Air humidifier, installed on my gas FWA furnace is a very small (immeasurable) fraction of that. It helps to provide other health benefits as well. Dry air is tougher on the respiratory function than moderately moist air. Not to mention furniture drying out and splitting, nose bleeds . . . and those damn nasty shocks when you touch something after lazily dragging your feet on the carpet when walkning across the room. A home with a 40 - 45% RH is also a much more comfortable environment than one with a 15 - 20% RH . . . . . and the arch tops are . . .. happy!!!

[Stevebol]

Originally Posted by cjm

Why, quite a few people tolerate it and for good reason. Takes energy, and a lot of it, to maintain year 'round indoor temperatures and humidity within a narrow range. That costs money, and raises environmental concerns that we don't need to discuss here because of the political implications.

Humidity in particular is difficult to regulate even if you're prepared to spend.

Best solution in the long run is probably multi-piece necks and adjustable steel truss rods.

Hell, that's how Heritage builds most of 'em -- and why they do it that way.

I would agree about truss rods. It's the best solution but for budget guitars like mine I'm going to do ebony for reinforcement. It might still bow a little but hopefully not nearly as much. What posessed people to use steel I'll never know. That bar looked nasty when I took it out.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

I just now picked up on what you added about the costs of maintaining temps and RH. Do you really think it would cost $1K per year . . . $85 bucks per month, to run a little room humidifier? Actually, it would only need to be run during winter months and only if the home was heated by forced warm air or wood fired stove. So then, now that's 5 months . . . max. That would equate to an additional $200 per month to run a little room humidifier? I think not. Even my whole house April Air humidifier, installed on my gas FWA furnace is a very small (immeasurable) fraction of that. It helps to provide other health benefits as well. Dry air is tougher on the respiratory function than moderately moist air. Not to mention furniture drying out and splitting, nose bleeds . . . and those damn nasty shocks when you touch something after lazily dragging your feet on the carpet when walkning across the room. A home with a 40 - 45% RH is also a much more comfortable environment than one with a 15 - 20% RH . . . . . and the arch tops are . . .. happy!!!

Well, it all depends upon where you live. I've had to keep archtops in a climate where you could air dry jerky for 5 months out of the year, and then during the heating season it got really dry in the house.

Generally speaking, if the natural flora includes cactus and sagebrush, and if winter temperatures also routinely drop below 0 degrees F, it isn't cheap to truly climate control a home.

The point is, that I could afford it and you could afford it, but...

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

In today's age of technology . . . why would anyone tolorate a fluctuation in temp or relative humidity?? Keep your guitars in an environment with 40 to 50% relative humidity and you'll probably never need to worry about top sag or bowing due to changes in RH.

True, but what about those of us who have our guitars out of the house a good part of the time. Yes, there are case humidifiers, but then I also take the guitar out of the case.

Personally, living in a temperate coast climate, I don't feel a need for a room humidifier. I'm not put off by adjusting the truss rod and the string action a couple of times a year, which will actually take much less work than keeping a room humidifier running. But I acknowledge that it is a matter of how big the fluctuations in humidity are. To prevent cracks, a room humidifier/dryer may be a very good idea in climates where there is more pronounced rain and dry seasons. BTW, in very damp climates, humidity fluctuation is not the only danger. Fungus growth can be a very real hazard not only to items made of wood. Once there, fungus can be very difficult to get rid of. Decades back, the Leica camera company offered "tropical" treatment for their cameras - that was the cameras was totally disassembled and all the parts were treated with a fungicide.

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by cjm

Well, it all depends upon where you live. I've had to keep archtops in a climate where you could air dry jerky for 5 months out of the year, and then during the heating season it got really dry in the house.

Generally speaking, if the natural flora includes cactus and sagebrush, and if winter temperatures also routinely drop below 0 degrees F, it isn't cheap to truly climate control a home.

The point is, that I could afford it and you could afford it, but...

Yeah . . . agreed. Sometimes I forget that not everybody lives here in NJ. With the traffic and density of population here . . . I was quite sure that everyone did.