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I own a epi sheraton and a eastman Ar503ce and realised that it feedbacks much easier and can be a tad bit annoying.
Even though I know the epi is a semi-hollow i wanted to know if there is a true difference in how easily a Full hollow laminate compared to a carved top.
This is making we wonder if I should purchase an eastman AR403ce to gig with due to the greater "resistance" to feedback while achieving a fuller sound than the sheraton produces.
So the question is would a carved top single pickup archtop feedback quicker than an laminate top single pickup archtop.
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12-10-2011 06:23 PM
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It should be more resonant thus feedback more easily. And that resonance is the reason to enjoy a solid wood carved guitar
You can try a different amp for your Eastman. What amp are you actually using? I like high headroom solid state amps for that application. Also keep in mind that archtops in general have less sustain and more room to "dig in" so getting the same volume from both guitars is a little different. It took me lots of time to adjust.
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All else being equal, I'd say yes.
Originally Posted by AZanshin
The worst offenders I've owned were solid tops with a floating pickup. They seemed very willing to feedback if I was not very conscious of where i was in relation to the amp.
I have found most built-in pickup guitars to be slightly less acoustically responsive, so at the volumes I play at were not too bad.
There is a tendency nowadays to carve the solid tops a bit thicker for feedback handling if the guitar is primarily intended as an electric instrument. Both Gibson and Ibanez sport pretty thick solid spruce tops now. It's conceivable that a thin laminated top could be more troublesome than a thick solid one.
A lot depends on the amp, and amp settings.Last edited by backliner; 12-10-2011 at 08:06 PM.
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AZ . . . there are still so many variables to be considered. How thin was the solid top carved? Was it tap tuned? What is the density of the spruce/maple used for the carved top? Is it a mounted pup carved top? Two mounted pup carved top? Floating pup carved top? What is the body depth of the carved solid top? Is it 2-3/4"? . . . 3"? . . . 3-1/2"? Originally Posted by AZanshin
In general, if all thing are equal between the two guitars, except that one is a carved solid top and the other is a pressed laminate . . . . then it's pretty much an accepted fact that the pressed laminate top will feed back less . . . . . but, under less than ideal conditions . . . it too will feed back.
But, I guess what I'm really saying is that there are no generalizations. You need to judge each guitar on its own merit. "And that's all I got to say about that"Last edited by Patrick2; 12-10-2011 at 08:09 PM.
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Don't get me wrong I love my carved top eastman with a set in pickup. I love the fact that it resonates so much as well. Originally Posted by burchyk
It should be more resonant thus feedback more easily. And that resonance is the reason to enjoy a solid wood carved guitar You can try a different amp for your Eastman. What amp are you actually using? I like high headroom solid state amps for that application. Also keep in mind that archtops in general have less sustain and more room to "dig in" so getting the same volume from both guitars is a little different. It took me lots of time to adjust.
At the moment I am using a roland cube 60 but am worried that at the slightly higher volumes I want to play it at it will feedback.
The AR403CE Originally Posted by Patrick2
Body Dimensions: 16″ X 2 9/16″ (2.5")
Cutaway: Venetian
Top Wood: Laminated Maple
Back/Sides Wood: Laminated Maple
Body Binding: Ivoroid 5-ply top 3 ply back
Neck Woods: 3 piece maple
Fingerboard: Rosewood
Nut Width: 1 3/4″
Scale Length: 25″
Frets: 22 Nickel – Silver
Pickguard: Rosewood
Inlays: Dot
Pick-up: Single Mounted Humbucking
Controls: Volume & Tone
Bridge: Rosewood compensated, 2 3/32″ Spacing
Tailpiece: Gold & Rosewood Trapeze-style
Tuners: Jinho Tuners
AR503CE
Body Dimensions: 16″ X 2 9/16" (2.5")
Cutaway: Venetian
Top Wood: Carved Spruce
Back/Sides Wood: Laminated Flamed Maple
Body Binding: Ivoroid, 5-ply top 3 ply back
Neck Woods: 3 piece maple
Fingerboard: Ebony, 1 ply binding
Nut Width: 1 3/4″
Scale Length: 25″
Frets: 20 Dunlop 6130
Pickguard: Ebony
Inlays: None
Pick-up: Single Mounted Humbucking
Controls: Volume & Tone
Bridge: Ebony, 2 3/32″ Spacing
Tailpiece: Gold & Rosewood Trapeze-style
Tuners: Jinho Tuners
The dimensions of these guitars are almost identical apart from the fact that the AR503CE has a carved spruce top with laminate sides and back while the 403CE has an a laminate construction.
DOn't get me wrong I love my carved top but for giging am worried about the feedback it would produce especially with are really loud drummer. I would just have to use it for recording and home use.
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Does the feedback level differ if you put the amp on the neck side of the guitar rather than the body side?
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Well, are you looking for justification to spend money to add another guitar? Originally Posted by AZanshin
Look, I prefer plywood for gigging, for a variety of reasons. But I also play bass so I have worked with a bunch of guys who refuse to play anything but carved spruce guitars...mostly L5CES, several old carved Epiphones with floaters, the occasional Johnny Smith.
Yes, in general (but only in general) they are more feedback prone. Never the less, most people can learn to manage it and prevent it from being a problem.
Since I have my own prejudices, I already play plywood. But if I owned your guitar, I'd give it a shot on the bandstand before I shelled out more money to add a plywood axe.
Given that it is a small guitar (16 inch across, 2.5 inches deep) and has a set in pickup, it will probably be fine. It isn't going to be like managing a non cut Super 400 with a floating pickup.
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There are lots of other posts around here on feedback and guitars, so I'd search around. As mentioned above, if you want a new guitar, go for it! If you're trying to control feedback, however, there are several options, including Doug's Plugs, maybe a new amp (I don't like the Cubes), or, like many say -- fix your eq.
Yes, certain builds and volumes make guitars more prone to feedback, but there are things to do besides getting another guitar.
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Not that this will be much help to you, but I'm considering acquiring an AR503 or an AR403 (only tried the 403) in the near future. I expect that the AR503 will sound more pleasing acoustically for home practice, but for gigging I'll only use it in a solo/duo context so feedback shouldn't be an issue as I have a nice 335 clone (similar to a Sheraton) for higher volumes and a Tele (and earplugs) as well. So to me the only downside of the AR503 vs the AR403 is that it lists for $300 more. However, based on my brief trial with it, I could be quite happy with an AR403; we'll see. (I'll be using it exclusively with a Henriksen JazzAmp112.)
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If your concern is that you are playing with "a really loud drummer", then you ain't playing standard jazz man. You're probably playing one of those other genres of music that sometimes erroneously get clumped in with jazz . . . like fusion, soft jazz, smooth jazz, jazz rock .. . . etc. If that's the case, then I would have to agree with your concerns and suggest that you look at a semi hollow or a semi solid guitar . . . . . or fire the drummer!
It's usually about managing your on stage sound.
And to my friend, Mr. cjm . . . "plywood", while correct, is such a harsh word . . . don't-cha think??? Pressed laminate . . . is so much more, shall we say . . . debonair.?.?
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Ah, but plywood is so direct and carries with it no hint of pretension. Originally Posted by Patrick2
A word that is good and true and strong. A word that a man can trust in and know that it is real.
Pressed laminate my great huge Scots-Irish ass!
Last edited by cjm; 12-11-2011 at 11:57 AM.
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Originally Posted by Bill C
I'd say so.
Worst case for me was directly behind me while seated at a rehearsal at a Holiday Inn, and pointing up at me, with a Heritage Eagle with one floating pickup.
If I took my arm off the front of the guitar it would immediately go "Whoo-oof!"
Then the leader would turn and look my way, and I'd have to glare at the bass player with a wtf? shrug.
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Then it's settled . . . . . plywood it is!!!! Originally Posted by cjm
Ah, but plywood is so direct and carries with it no hint of pretension.
A word that is good and true and strong. A word that a man can trust in and know that it is real.
Pressed laminate my great huge Scots-Irish ass!
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And besides that, I looked at a Mosquito at the RAF museum in London, and they don't call it a pressed laminate airplane.
They called it a fast S.O.B, but they also called it plywood.
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Well . . . as I said, plywood is definitely correct . . . (but, harsh). I guess if it's good enough to be spoken in "The Queen's English" . . then who am I to dispute it? Further, I certainly wouldn't want to take issue with your "great huge Scots-Irish ass"! Originally Posted by cjm
By the way . . . I'm still laughing my Italian ass off over the post from backliner . . . regarding the wtf look and shrug at his bass player. That was hysterical. I could get a visual of that as it's happening and break into a belly laugh just thinking about it. Especially if he really sold it well and the band leader then gave the bass player a "look". LOLOLOLOLOL
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All true.
I patented it.
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"At the moment I am using a roland cube 60 but am worried that at the slightly higher volumes I want to play it at it will feedback."
I think Cube 60 may not cut it headroom-wise with carved archtop along with a medium-loud drummer and/or an electric bass. Tried an older version Clarus into 2x12 recently and was very impressed, you might like it as well
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I play straight jazz gigs but most of the gig's I play are not really jazz so I pull out the ole' Sheraton to deal with that, however some of the tracks played in those gigs I yearn for the sound full sound from my jazzbox. Originally Posted by Patrick2
As well as that me and keys player have started to play standards as interludes between these tracks and some of the vibe is missing.
Through reading through the forum, specs and youtube videos am GAS'ing for a ES-175D for these gigs or even an eastman 371 with dual pickups if they even make that.
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I find that interesting. It raises more questions, too. Originally Posted by AZanshin
If your audience is accepting of standards during "interludes," that suggests they might also be accepting of -- maybe even wishing for -- a less intrusive, softer, quieter, less "in your face" approach to the more contemporary music that makes up the bulk of what you play during these non jazz gigs.
That, in turn, suggests some other things. Where is it written that drummers have to play with monstrous kit -- even for rock -- when the venue is a club rather than a cow pasture in the Catskills? Maybe he/she is amenable to the idea of a jazz kit (including a wood snare) which would tone things down even with an aggressive use of sticks.
Two things I've noticed when attending events where there is live music, or when stopping into a club for drinks with friends or business associates are:
1. Most people, if they are "into" music at all, are more into rock than anything else. Duh. "Pop music" is popular. It resonates with less sophisticated tastes and it also creates nostalgic connections to (insert decade of choice here).
2. But by the time they're no longer young adults, even though they want to hear rock, LOUD mostly pisses them off and they shout across the table, "Well I guess if you can't play it right, play it loud!"
In other words, when a car pulls up next to you at a traffic light, and even if the vehicle behind you is a garbage truck with a big loud diesel engine, and even if your windows are rolled up and your airconditioning is blowing full blast, but all you can hear is THUMP, THUMP, FUCKING THUMP, from the stereo in the car next to you...odds are 99.999% that it isn't some graying couple listening to Led Zeppelin and reminiscing about the development of blotter.
What I'm getting at is that maybe there is a niche market waiting for you -- one in which you wouldn't have to worry so much about feedback from the Eastman you already have -- and that the only thing standing between you, the keyboard player, and that market -- is a drummer that you haven't beaten the cheese out of yet.
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On the feedback and pickups, Benedetto says:
Do built-in pickups eliminate feedback better than suspended pickups?Contrary to popular belief, no. It's a fact of life that any full-bodied archtop has potential to feedback. The problem doesn't seem to be related to the instrument's acoustical sensitivity either. Plywood as well as a carved body can feed back and it doesn't matter whether the guitar is fitted with a suspended or built-in pickup.
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Originally Posted by carlescountry
Well, I think the key here is "eliminate" versus "reduce the propensity to."
Certainly there are a variety of factors at work with feedback. One working against the guitarist is size. One working in the guitarist's favor is that most carved guitars are fitted with thicker tops if equipped with set in pickups.
As a guitarist, rather than a luthier/designer, the selection of guitars is from guitars some one else designed and built. Whether it is actually due to the difference between carved wood and plywood (note to Patrick: even Benedetto says plywood ) and the difference between suspended and set in pickups or not...it is never the less a fact, for example, that an ES-175 is less susceptible to feedback than a non cut acoustic Super 400 with a suspended pickup.
It is also a fact that both are subject to feedback problems...but the difference in the problem is of an order of magnitude between the two.
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Originally Posted by carlescountry
That's just NOT totally correct.
Who would have ever though I would be enough of an ass hole to take issue with a Master the likes of Bob Benedetto?? But, I'm not at all on board with the entirety of his stated comment above. Actually, I think that the FAQ section on his web sit is responded to by one of his employees.
Earlier in this very post, cjm referenced a Super 400, non cutaway with a tuned top and floating pup . . . (actually, the tuned top was my interjection). But, imagine if you will, the Super 400 mentioned above, and a ES175 with 2 mounted pups, under the same set of variables. Now, let Bob tell me that they will be equally manageable! They will obviously both feed back at higher volumes and poor amp/guitar proximities. But, their level of sensitivity will be vastly different. Similar with an L5C or an L5 non cutaway vs an L5CES. For one thing, the spruce tops are carved differently for floaters and mounted pups, with the tops for floaters being purposely carved thinner for better acoustical properties. The statement . . . "The problem doesn't seem to be related to the instrument's acoustical sensitivity" . . . is just not, IMNSHO, acurate.
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The above two posts, by cjm and me, are proof that not only do brilliant minds think alike... but, sometimes even fading minds, like his and mine do as well.
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I prefer to think our experienced minds are now being held in reserve for greater things rather than fading... Originally Posted by Patrick2
The above two posts, by cjm and me, are proof that not only do brilliant minds think alike... but, sometimes even fading minds, like his and mine do as well.
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I don't think you are taking issue with Benedetto, as it happens. That FAQ, and the website, Benedetto - The Signature Guitar Pickup, appears to be something run by Seymour Duncan, and with the Benedetto name used under license. Originally Posted by Patrick2
That's just NOT totally correct.
Who would have ever though I would be enough of an ass hole to take issue with a Master the likes of Bob Benedetto?? But, I'm not at all on board with the entirety of his stated comment above. Actually, I think that the FAQ section on his web sit is responded to by one of his employees.
And what the hell does Seymour Duncan know about it anyway?
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