Jazz tones from a jazz guitar

[ronduitvierkant]

On this forum, I read many opinions on which amplifier/type, guitar type, should be good enough for "Jazz guitar players". So I would like to start a discusion what properties a "Jazz Guitar amp/Jazz guitar" should have. As there are so many advices on what type of circuit, tubes, speakers, watts, strings, body, wood, pickups... should be involved, people should certainly also be capable to give a good close definition of a decent "general Jazz tone". In other words: I heard fine jazz tones from so many different types of guitars en from hundred types of amps, I'm a little bit confused, so help me please... and now, I'll play for a few hours, THAT will certainly improve my tone....

[mambosun]

Yes you're right, the so-call "Jazz tone" could be achieved from hundreds gear types and combinations but that's far from being the full story.
Firstly you'll have to decide which type of "decent jazz tone" you're looking for; as you may have noticed, all of us favoured different types of jazz tones.
Secondly, you'll have to estimate your jazz playing capabilities.
Thirdly, you'll have to look at your present gear; is it the right starting point to get your tone?
Finally, you'll have to make the right decision: the answer to your question is a smart and balanced combination of those three parameters, hence to decide if the tool will be the priority number 1, or guitar lessons or if the sound in your head is not specific enough to be reached.
That's my 2 cents...
Good luck and keep us informed!

[robertm2000]

I'd say there are two main types of jazz guitar tone: a muted flute like tone, usually accomplished by turning down the guitar tone knob and the amplifier's treble, and a more acoustic tone with not much modification. I like something in between, a single coil pickup usually. It just sounds more natural that way.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by robertm2000

I'd say there are two main types of jazz guitar tone: a muted flute like tone, usually accomplished by turning down the guitar tone knob and the amplifier's treble, and a more acoustic tone with not much modification. I like something in between, a single coil pickup usually. It just sounds more natural that way.

Like you, I tend to prefer the sound of a single coil pickup on a hollow body archtop.

Interestingly enough, with regard to the flute like tones, and rolling off the tone pot to achieve it, many -- perhaps most -- of the very most expensive jazz boxes built today do not even have tone pots installed except by special order.

I submit that the common conception of jazz tone derives from engineering decisions and limitations of recording technology during the 1940s through the 1960s coupled to the poor sound reproduction capabilities of consumer grade phonographs during that same period...and that the tonal qualities people heard in their living rooms bore no more than a passing resemblance to the ambient sound originally recorded.

Over time, new guitarists emulated the sound of their phonographs rather than the actual sound of the jazz guitarist they thought they were listening to.

This led to the humbucker-with-the-tone-rolled-off sound that became a "de facto standard."

[rpguitar]

I, for one, would be pretty happy if people stopped asking these questions ad nauseum. It seems there's a new post every day with the subject "What kind of guitar/amp should I get for jazz?"

I mean, it's just not that mysterious. All of the information about what the great players used or use is available on the internet, on album/CD jacket photos, and in magazines. And, big surprise! There are a few basic "recipes" or perhaps "ingredients" - mixed and matched in different combinations. Plus there are people who break those conventions and - shockingly - still sound like they're playing jazz. That alone should give inquiring minds a clue that the conventions are not rules, and that equipment is only a component of the whole picture.

Rock guitarists seem to know in painful detail what their heroes use. Even the newbies. Usually the really new and/or young players can't afford that equipment, so the question morphs into "What kind of guitar/amp can I get that sounds like so-and-so but only costs $100?" Those are painful questions, too.

So about good jazz guitar tone: Listen to jazz guitar recordings. Decide what tonal qualities you like most. Find out what those guys use. Buy something similar. But don't ask a bunch of random guitarists on the internet. We all have too many damn opinions! Form your own.

[stevedenver]

Originally Posted by rpguitar

I, for one, would be pretty happy if people stopped asking these questions ad nauseum. It seems there's a new post every day with the subject "What kind of guitar/amp should I get for jazz?"

I mean, it's just not that mysterious. All of the information about what the great players used or use is available on the internet, on album/CD jacket photos, and in magazines. And, big surprise! There are a few basic "recipes" or perhaps "ingredients" - mixed and matched in different combinations. Plus there are people who break those conventions and - shockingly - still sound like they're playing jazz. That alone should give inquiring minds a clue that the conventions are not rules, and that equipment is only a component of the whole picture.

Rock guitarists seem to know in painful detail what their heroes use. Even the newbies. Usually the really new and/or young players can't afford that equipment, so the question morphs into "What kind of guitar/amp can I get that sounds like so-and-so but only costs $100?" Those are painful questions, too.

So about good jazz guitar tone: Listen to jazz guitar recordings. Decide what tonal qualities you like most. Find out what those guys use. Buy something similar. But don't ask a bunch of random guitarists on the internet. We all have too many damn opinions! Form your own.

dooood-lighten up-theres no harm in asking and theres less in sharing ideas-thats what the forum is for-not everybody does searches -and sometimes folks just liek a little interactive feedback

if you feel the thread is lame or number 99 of the same-no need to participate

[bborzell]

I guess this entire forum could be replaced by Google.

[mangotango]

Originally Posted by robertm2000

I'd say there are two main types of jazz guitar tone: a muted flute like tone, usually accomplished by turning down the guitar tone knob and the amplifier's treble, and a more acoustic tone with not much modification.

Yes, exactly. I have a hollowbody with floating p/u to get the second, and a laminate with set-in humbuckers for the first.

But I also agree your comment about the single coil p/u, so I am buying p.90's that fit into humbucker spacings to go into my Epi JP. Worth a try.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by ronduitvierkant

On this forum, I read many opinions on which amplifier/type, guitar type, should be good enough for "Jazz guitar players". So I would like to start a discusion what properties a "Jazz Guitar amp/Jazz guitar" should have. As there are so many advices on what type of circuit, tubes, speakers, watts, strings, body, wood, pickups... should be involved, people should certainly also be capable to give a good close definition of a decent "general Jazz tone". In other words: I heard fine jazz tones from so many different types of guitars en from hundred types of amps, I'm a little bit confused, so help me please... and now, I'll play for a few hours, THAT will certainly improve my tone....

So, everyone has their own ideas about a "decent 'general Jazz tone.'"

Name some names. Tell us a short list of players getting the jazz tone you want to get close to. To me, the "jazz tone" is exemplified by players from Christian to Montgomery and Kessel to Pizzarelli. That's quite a range of tones, but it's still something that can be classified as a sub set of similar "jazz tones" -- and very much distinct from the sound of some of the contemporary players who rely heavily on electronic effects borrowed from rock.

But with a better idea of what you are trying to achieve, some specific examples of guitars, amps, strings, settings, pick technique, etc., might be forthcoming.

[robertm2000]

Originally Posted by mangotango

Yes, exactly. I have a hollowbody with floating p/u to get the second, and a laminate with set-in humbuckers for the first.

But I also agree your comment about the single coil p/u, so I am buying p.90's that fit into humbucker spacings to go into my Epi JP. Worth a try.

That's what is so great about this forum - you can ask and get the information that you need, even if the question is repetitive or not "smart" enough.

It wasn't till I came upon this forum that I figured there were other jazz guitar sounds than the ES-175 sound, and found the information on how to get them. One benefit of a single coil and solid body guitar- it's less expensive than an archtop!

[jmstritt]

Here are a few of the basic tones and an idea of how to get close...

Fat and Warm:

Wes Montgomery (Riverside Era)- L5 into a Fender style tube amp. (Princeton Reverb, Twin, Super Reverb, should all get you close). A big part of Wes' tone was the thumb though, that shouldn't be overlooked. Wes would turn up the treble on the amp to conpensate for the dark tone of using the thumb instead of a pick.

Sweet Lively and Acoustic

Think Joe Pass on Virtuoso. That is the sound of an all carved archtop acoustically with very little if any aid from an amplifier. You can hear a nice sparkle on the top end and a very sweet midrange all with that acoustic lively vibe.

Dark and Warm

Jim Hall on Concierto. Archtop guitar with a set in humbucker into a Polytone type amp. Usually with the tone on the guitar and treble on the amp rolled off. This tone has to be very clean, if the amp starts to distort your tone will go from rich and warm to muddy.

Modern/ Super Clean

Kurt Rosenwinkel, Mike Moreno, Ben Monder, etc. More use of semi hollow guitars, lighter strings as opposed to the other guys, and amps set with more of a V EQ. (Boosted lows and highs, and a precieved notch in the midrange) Also very common to hear multiple delays, reverbs, etc.

Modern/Shimmery

Mike Stern on Standards. Solidbody guitar with a neck humbucker. Clean solid state amp with reverb and a good amount of chorus for a, "Shimmer" in the highs. Also a relatively bright tone on the amp. Tone tends to be rolled of on distortion units to keep the distorted tone from becoming brittle.

[Jim Soloway]

Originally Posted by cjm

So, everyone has their own ideas about a "decent 'general Jazz tone.'"

Name some names. Tell us a short list of players getting the jazz tone you want to get close to. To me, the "jazz tone" is exemplified by players from Christian to Montgomery and Kessel to Pizzarelli. That's quite a range of tones, but it's still something that can be classified as a sub set of similar "jazz tones" -- and very much distinct from the sound of some of the contemporary players who rely heavily on electronic effects borrowed from rock.

But with a better idea of what you are trying to achieve, some specific examples of guitars, amps, strings, settings, pick technique, etc., might be forthcoming.

I've never really worked that way. I've never really tried to emulate someone's sound. Rather I have a sound in my head that's based as much on piano as it is on guitar and that what I work towards (perhaps some blend of Lenny Breau and Bill Evans on a Fender Rhodes with a bit of Barney Kessel thrown in for good measure). I listened to a huge amount of guitar music of various types for a long time (not so much any more), so I'm sure there are a few players who have had an influence but there's never been anyone who made me say "I want to sound like that".

[cjm]

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

I've never really worked that way. I've never really tried to emulate someone's sound. Rather I have a sound in my head that's based as much on piano as it is on guitar and that what I work towards (perhaps some blend of Lenny Breau and Bill Evans on a Fender Rhodes with a bit of Barney Kessel thrown in for good measure). I listened to a huge amount of guitar music of various types for a long time (not so much any more), so I'm sure there are a few players who have had an influence but there's never been anyone who made me say "I want to sound like that".

I was thinking more in terms of being within the "same realm" as a number of players, rather than sounding precisely the same as anyone in particular.

[Jim Soloway]

Originally Posted by cjm

I was thinking more in terms of being within the "same realm" as a number of players, rather than sounding precisely the same as anyone in particular.

Understood but my general answer would remain the same. I've always worked towards the odd noise in my head and pretty much ignored the rest.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by jmstritt

Sweet Lively and Acoustic

Think Joe Pass on Virtuoso. That is the sound of an all carved archtop acoustically with very little if any aid from an amplifier.

I'm not so shure of that. As far I know, the first Virtuoso record (if that's what you are referring to) was made with Pass' first Gibson 175. It sounds acoustically exactly like my sample of the 175 which by coincidence is from 1961 like Pas' was. I'm not too crazy about that sound, but then the 175 is intended as an electric guitar. To my ear, a true carved spruce top sounds much richer and more singing than the sound on "Virtuoso". It is said that "Virutoso was meant to be recorded with a mix of the acoustic and the tone from the pickup, but due to some mistake by the recording engineer, the sound of the pickup only made its way to the board in one the tracks, the rest ended up purely acoustically - unintentionally.

[Gramps]

I'm glad some have said that there isn't one "jazz guitar tone".

If you spend any time on youtube you'll hear that there is a wide range of tones used by pro players and wider range played by unknowns.

When someone talks to me about great jazz guitar tone I assume they are talking about rolling off the highs and playing with a clean sound but experience has shown me that there are lots of different jazz tones.

[rschwa9966]

Originally Posted by rpguitar

I, for one, would be pretty happy if people stopped asking these questions ad nauseum. It seems there's a new post every day with the subject "What kind of guitar/amp should I get for jazz?"...don't ask a bunch of random guitarists on the internet. We all have too many damn opinions! Form your own.

So what are you doing on the Guitar, Amps & Gizmos forum? Lighten up. We're hobbyists who enjoy this stuff.

[cosmic gumbo]

Everyone has to decide for themselves what jazz tone sounds like. Some like the wet blanket over the amp sound, some like to sound like an electric icepick.

[jmstritt]

Originally Posted by oldane

I'm not so shure of that. As far I know, the first Virtuoso record (if that's what you are referring to) was made with Pass' first Gibson 175. It sounds acoustically exactly like my sample of the 175 which by coincidence is from 1961 like Pas' was. I'm not too crazy about that sound, but then the 175 is intended as an electric guitar. To my ear, a true carved spruce top sounds much richer and more singing than the sound on "Virtuoso". It is said that "Virutoso was meant to be recorded with a mix of the acoustic and the tone from the pickup, but due to some mistake by the recording engineer, the sound of the pickup only made its way to the board in one the tracks, the rest ended up purely acoustically - unintentionally.

Interesting! I assumed that was the D'angelico, of course I perhaps was listening with my head rather than my ears. That certainly would explain why Here's That Rainy Day is the only electric track. It is that one right? Wow, I love finding out stuff like this!

[mongrel]

Originally Posted by bborzell

I guess this entire forum could be replaced by Google.

I found this forum via Google. I found other forums, also, but on this one there are far fewer sarcastic comments. As far as jazz guitar tone, when I grew up the music I was exposed to while still in diapers was swing and jazz with the solo instruments mainly saxophones, trumpets, pianos and electric organs. So those are the instruments whose tones I end up emulating while playing guitar. I listened to a whole lot of Coltrane, the Adderlys, Miles Davis, Monk and Jimmy Smith so there you go.

[mr. beaumont]

I can really only tell you what I like...and that's varied too.

All I need is a clean tone with no breakup (although that can even be cool sometimes) that gives me good definition between the notes in chords and not too much sustain, so my single note lines don't get all "blendy."

There's a bunch of ways to skin that cat, from an acoustic archtop to a semi hollow with the tone rolled back a bit and the tailpiece cranked up for not too much string angle over the bridge...

As far as Joe Pass, I've always heard the story of the engineer's error resulting in that sound. I also think people are very forgiving of that tone because they like the playing...I think that record sounds like nails on a chalkboard...but then again, I think Joe Pass is the poster boy for "great playing, lousy tone."

I also think the blanket over the amp hype is mostly a myth. I can think of about 4 good players who use that dark of a tone. A lot of jazz tones are much brighter and articulate...

[jmstritt]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

but then again, I think Joe Pass is the poster boy for "great playing, lousy tone."

Them's fightin' words!

Just pulling your leg of course

[rpguitar]

Originally Posted by rschwa9966

So what are you doing on the Guitar, Amps & Gizmos forum? Lighten up.

Whateva... I post on all sorts of topics here. Don't you get just a little tired of the same basic questions, asked and answered over and over like Groundhog Day?

Great jazz guitar tone is all over the place. That's the amazing thing. It's not the guitar, and it's not the amp. It's the player and his/her touch on the instrument, which includes the choice of plectrum used (including fingers) as well as a tremendous attention to the physical details of how the strings are struck.

This is evidenced over and over by just listening to the vast catalog of jazz guitar we have available to us, starting back in the 1920s and moving through several generations of style and equipment til this present day. Of course there are iconic setups. I'm not an idiot; I realize this. I even seek many of these instruments to own and enjoy. But this topic is like a discussion of our favorite color. Each opinion is just as valid as any other, and all are equally indefensible.

I like Jim Soloway's reply. Go seek your own great jazz tone from the sounds in your head. And don't forget how much of it is actually coming from the interface that you use to play the instrument - the plectrum/fingers and your physical approach. It's a tremendous factor.

[NSJ]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I can really only tell you what I like...and that's varied too.

All I need is a clean tone with no breakup (although that can even be cool sometimes) that gives me good definition between the notes in chords and not too much sustain, so my single note lines don't get all "blendy."

There's a bunch of ways to skin that cat, from an acoustic archtop to a semi hollow with the tone rolled back a bit and the tailpiece cranked up for not too much string angle over the bridge...

As far as Joe Pass, I've always heard the story of the engineer's error resulting in that sound. I also think people are very forgiving of that tone because they like the playing...I think that record sounds like nails on a chalkboard...but then again, I think Joe Pass is the poster boy for "great playing, lousy tone."

I also think the blanket over the amp hype is mostly a myth. I can think of about 4 good players who use that dark of a tone. A lot of jazz tones are much brighter and articulate...

I tend to agree with the above. I've heard some great Joe Pass stories, too, from very close friends and musical comrades: one time, someone got exacerbated with his tendency to pick up "any old guitar" and play it, saying something like, "c'mon man, that has the tonal quality of a godamn ukelele!"

I also want to chime in on the semi-hollow with center block adding sustain as another type of wonderful tonal quality. I think I'm the only one to throw a Charlie Christian (Lollar) on a semi (ES-339), and the tech who did it was amazed how clear, clean and wonderful the strings sounded. With the added bonus of extra sustain, thanks to the center block.

[NSJ]

Originally Posted by rpguitar

Whateva... I post on all sorts of topics here. Don't you get just a little tired of the same basic questions, asked and answered over and over like Groundhog Day?

Great jazz guitar tone is all over the place. That's the amazing thing. It's not the guitar, and it's not the amp. It's the player and his/her touch on the instrument, which includes the choice of plectrum used (including fingers) as well as a tremendous attention to the physical details of how the strings are struck.

This is evidenced over and over by just listening to the vast catalog of jazz guitar we have available to us, starting back in the 1920s and moving through several generations of style and equipment til this present day. Of course there are iconic setups. I'm not an idiot; I realize this. I even seek many of these instruments to own and enjoy. But this topic is like a discussion of our favorite color. Each opinion is just as valid as any other, and all are equally indefensible.

I like Jim Soloway's reply. Go seek your own great jazz tone from the sounds in your head. And don't forget how much of it is actually coming from the interface that you use to play the instrument - the plectrum/fingers and your physical approach. It's a tremendous factor.

I agree with the above, too. My teacher said that he spent years developing his legato tone, painstakingly developing a proper way to play ascending and defending slurs, finger nails, and with the plectrum, minute ways of picking (elbow/wrist/thumb and index), pick angles, nail and flesh combinations, apoyando and tirando strokes--with both pick and fingers.

Of course, he also knows the importance of playing a well-made instrument. One time, he had the opportunity to play a very special classical guitar that was stored at a very special musical museum that Yamaha had made--that was off-limits for everyone exempt for yamaha employees. He was so impressed with the guitar, he offered to buy it. Yamaha told him he could borrow it, but it was not for sale. So, the luthier who originally made it got wind of this conversation and had talked to him, and was commissioned to build a new one for him. Finally, after several months, it was finished. My teacher took it for a test drive--and promptly gave it back to the luthier, saying, "I'm sorry sir, you did not make this guitar". The luthier fessed up: he had given the assignment to an assistant. He did not, in fact, make that guitar.

So, yeah, they go together--nice instrument, developed technique, all wrapped together nicely with some vivid dumbo like hearing.

BTW--thanks for posting your audio samples on that Solomon guitar--the youtube samples I heard are, by comparison, not done well at all, in terms of audio. Private luthiers need to ensure that the sound samples of their work that exists on the internet are also up to standards. Otherwise, reflects badly on their work.

I've decided that once I sell a guitar (maybe 2), I'll have enough to put a down payment on it and get in line for that Solomon: 7 string, 25.5. scale, 2.16" nut width.

[mongrel]

Originally Posted by NSJ

I tend to agree with the above. I've heard some great Joe Pass stories, too, from very close friends and musical comrades: one time, someone got exacerbated with his tendency to pick up "any old guitar" and play it, saying something like, "c'mon man, that has the tonal quality of a godamn ukelele!"

I also want to chime in on the semi-hollow with center block adding sustain as another type of wonderful tonal quality. I think I'm the only one to throw a Charlie Christian (Lollar) on a semi (ES-339), and the tech who did it was amazed how clear, clean and wonderful the strings sounded. With the added bonus of extra sustain, thanks to the center block.

A couple of months ago I snipped and spliced a pair of Vintage Vibe HCC's into a Samick JZ 123, a semi. Now they're not like the Lollars that are wound with .38 gauge wire but they are clear as a bell and very piano-like with the center block sustain and sound good processed as well. If I get my hands on one of those Lollars, I would consider taking the Dremel to the Samick.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by mongrel

A couple of months ago I snipped and spliced a pair of Vintage Vibe HCC's into a Samick JZ 123, a semi. Now they're not like the Lollars that are wound with .38 gauge wire but they are clear as a bell and very piano-like with the center block sustain and sound good processed as well. If I get my hands on one of those Lollars, I would consider taking the Dremel to the Samick.

I have a HCC in a Warmoth solid body partscaster with mahogany body and neck. It sounds very good, clear, warm with exellent string separation - and it sustains for ever which I actually like in that guitar. But of course, it lacks the typical "acoustic" add on to the amplified tone an archtop has.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

As far as Joe Pass, I've always heard the story of the engineer's error resulting in that sound. I also think people are very forgiving of that tone because they like the playing...I think that record sounds like nails on a chalkboard...but then again, I think Joe Pass is the poster boy for "great playing, lousy tone.

Agree. Ever so often one sees Joe Pass' playing on "Virtuose" mentioned as an example of the typical archtop sound. I think that's a shame, because it's actually not a typical archtop sound, just the sound of a plywood box. I figure that that statement may have put more than one person off archtops. That record may have many virtues, but the quality of sound from Joes Gibson 175 is not one of them (only IMHO of course).

Yesterday I sat and listened to "Picking with Patsy", a guitar solo by Allan Reuss with Jack Teagardens orchestra (I think in 1938 or 1939). Now, that is a typical and classic archtop sound (made with an acoustic Gibson L5):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_QlFZF1qDY

... or another example by George van Eps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZDSL...eature=related

[mongrel]

Originally Posted by oldane

I have a HCC in a Warmoth solid body partscaster with mahogany body and neck. It sounds very good, clear, warm with exellent string separation - and it sustains for ever which I actually like in that guitar. But of course, it lacks the typical "acoustic" add on to the amplified tone an archtop has.

And I have another one in the neck position of a Peavey Reactor AX, a slab of heavy ash with a nice flat neck with rosewood board. I Dremeled out the neck pickup hole and tortoise shell pickguard that came with the guitar, and made a plate to close the bridge pickup hole. With .013 Chromes, the clarity of that one is extremely pianistic and it sustains well also. I was inspired by one of Jim Soloway's earlier models that had the same pickup neck only to give it a whirl.

[rpguitar]

Originally Posted by oldane

Yesterday I sat and listened to "Picking with Patsy", a guitar solo by Allan Reuss with Jack Teagardens orchestra (I think in 1938 or 1939). Now, that is a typical and classic archtop sound (made with an acoustic Gibson L5)

Yes! Now this is perfect, because unless you are one of those funny types who seeks out this older music, you would possibly not be familiar with it, and you'd never consider that tone a "jazz guitar tone." Yet it is exemplary of what the first and most iconic jazz guitar (the Gibson L-5) actually sounds like acoustically. Which is how it was played exclusively until about 1939 when CC came into the picture.

The fact that all of that early stuff is on 78 RPM records is a shame, because you need some imagination to aurally infer how the guitars really sounded live - which was much richer and sweeter than on the recordings. The great thing is that you can still acquire one and find out for yourself. It's an enriching experience that will challenge you as a guitarist and reward you as a musician.

Thanks for the link. I love the old stuff.