Thinking about acoustics (many questions ahoy!)

[Atticus]

I'm not a huge fan of acoustic guitars- I love them for certain contexts (I have particularly fond memories of listening to Simon & Garfunkel growing up), but I prefer electrics. That said, there are definitely some gigs that an acoustic timbre is preferable, and when you're going somewhere without power it's nice to be audible. So I think some sort of acoustic is going on my Christmas list. I'm still deciding what kind.

Now, I know archtops are the standard for acoustics in jazz for cutting through the mix- not something I really understand since my goal in a big band is to sit in the mix and not overpower the horns, but I'll trust that there's a reason for it. I don't play exclusively jazz, and I don't know if an acoustic archtop would be a one-trick pony. I'm also not clear on which is louder- I know archtops are bright and clear, and flat tops have more bass and are more mellow, but I can't tell which are considered louder if no amplification is available.

Then there's the issue of electricity- an acoustic-electric vs. an archtop electric. Certainly very different beasts, but I don't know too many archtops with pickups that have acoustic volume to match a proper acoustic guitar (but then, nowhere around here stocks more than two or three archtops, max). In the event that I need to combine acoustic tone and louder volumes, I can always put a mike on an acoustic-electric, but I can't plug in a pure acoustic.

There's also, of course, price: certainly not about to get showered with some sort of ideal dream guitar than combines the best of all worlds and costs an arm and a leg.

Can anybody help me in my quest to make a decision?

[Retroman1969]

When I think of the melding of Jazz and Acoustic guitar, my mind snaps to these for some reason...




I can't claim to know how they play as I've never tried a guitar of this design, and for the record, the above examples run from $200-$2000.
But hey, they might be worth checking out. Especially the Eastman AR 804 CE (first one).
Video of it in action (albeit, plugged in)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVY-T...e_gdata_player
Played more like an acoustic guitar...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZdjq...e_gdata_player

[Retroman1969]

Actually I find this example of regular Jazz Archtops being played acoustically kind of interesting, even if it's not the bassy open flattop sound you're looking for:
Jazz Guitars Unplugged - YouTube
I found the Emperor Regent to be surprisingly big, loud, and generally nice sounding acoustically.

[Stevebol]

A couple things to consider when looking at archtops. Mind you, I'm still learning.
Where is the pickup located along the string length-wise? Is it half way between the bridge and 12th fret? If so, the sound may be a bit closer to the sound of pickups that are routed-in since many are located at this harmonic point.
Is the top laminate, carved or pressed? Nothing wrong with a good pressed top in my book but laminate produces a brighter sound than the others if I'm not mistaken.
There's a definite trade-off between getting a good sound plugged and unplugged. Eastman seems to be on top of this.

[Anandbhat]

Eric Skye (a member here) plays awesome jazz on his Santacruz 00. I'm sure there are cheaper options out there such as Blue Ridge. Some of these smaller body guitars can project quite well !
Here's a you tube link to one of Eric's videos:

Eric Skye -Take Five - YouTube

[rpguitar]

Everybody's idea of an arm and a leg is a tad different. No laminate guitar will achieve adequate acoustic volume for a gig. Many have nice acoustic tone, though, if you just want to hear that component in your sound. Eastman carved tops with floating pups, in either 16" or 17", and either oval or f-hole styles, are ideal.

Also, and I won't even try to defend this, a US-made higher end Ovation is excellent as an all around acoustic. Their somewhat flat sound is punchy and makes a great jazz guitar as long as you don't mind the raised eyebrows of purists.

[Atticus]

@Retroman: Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the vid, definitely nice to heard a demo of those guitars.

@Stevebol: I'm not expecting a magic bullet guitar that strikes a perfect balance of acoustic volume and electric sound (and price, for that matter). I doubt such a perfect guitar exists. I'm asking for information to get my thoughts organized.

@Anandbhat: Videos of Eric Skye's playing are part of the reason I'm interested in an acoustic, especially the one of his trio playing All of Me.

@rpguitar: I've always heard lots of people complain that they don't like the tone of Ovations, but I don't mind them, and being that I play a very unconventional guitar for jazz (Fender Blacktop Strat!), an Ovation would probably seem less offensive to purists.

One point of contention that I keep seeing- on jazz forums, people insist that archtops have superior volume (or at least project outward better), while on acoustic forums, people insist that flat tops are louder. Now, I know there's a major frequency difference between the two, but are acoustic archtops genuinely louder, or do they just cut through the mix more?

[Flat]

Good line of thought, imho...

I probably would go another way--acoustic pickups are better today than in Ovation's salad [bowl] days. But there's still a good precedent for Ovations in jazz. I started as a Martin acoustic player--and these two great albums really caught my ear back when, and opened a huge door for me. I finally saw that I *could* play jazz on "my" instrument...

[mr. beaumont]

The fact an archtop can be heard in a big band context has as much to do with the frequency range it occupies as volume.

I like playing modern jazz stuff on a flattop. I have a Taylor that I really enjoy.

Don't discount a gypsy jazz style guitar as an acoustic option for jazz.

[oldane]

Once again my pet subject - string action. Many are disappointed with the acoustic sound of their electric jazz box. But try to raise the action a bit - or a bit more than a bit - so the strings don't slap on the frets when hit hard. The sound cleans up tremedously. An action around 3-4 mm with 13-56 strings would be a good starting point.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by Anandbhat

Eric Skye (a member here) plays awesome jazz on his Santacruz 00. I'm sure there are cheaper options out there such as Blue Ridge. Some of these smaller body guitars can project quite well !
Here's a you tube link to one of Eric's videos:

Eric Skye -Take Five - YouTube

Nice rendition! Thanks for that reference.

[kamlapati]

I'll try to stay on topic! I have multiple acoustic archtops and I have been an aficionado for twenty years.

Acoustic archtops are definitely not a one trick pony. They are as versatile as any acoustic guitar. They sound great as rhythm guitars in any situation (big band, or guitar ensemble), they are great for mellow chord solo, and they can play country (Ma Maybelle). I think that what they do is limited by the player, not by the guitar.

Regarding electric vs. acoustic volume, a floating pickup on an acoustic archtop does not effect acoustic volume, so my L-5 with the Johnny Smith PU can hang with any dreadnought in an acoustic ensemble. If you start talking archtops with mounted humbuckers, it definitely affects acoustic tone. Most ply-tops are not really designed for acoustic settings, they are designed to be amped. That doesn't mean they can never sound good acoustically in certain situations, but it's not their strength and you probably won't be taking them to an acoustic jam unless it's you only guitar.

Hope you have fun trying all the possibilities.

[rpguitar]

I agree with Kamlapati 100%. Acoustic archtops have become my personal instrument of choice after owning nearly 100 guitars of all kinds over the past 20 years. There seems to be no other guitar type that is as misunderstood, marginalized, and pigeonholed by "typical" guitar players. However, I do think they are a destination for the mature traveler, and not necessarily a beginner's acoustic guitar.

[mr. beaumont]

I agree roger.

Not to sound snooty about it, but strum an open "G" chord on an archtop and you'll say "hohum."

Play some complex chords, some leads, some intricate stuff and you hear what they're capable of.