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In 2006 i bought a new Gibson ES-175,if i am correct it was made 2005.It is the only ES-175 ive ever had my hands on so i have no other reference to go by.Last week i was watching the 1975 footage of Joe Pass in Montreux,and noticed his neck pickup appeared to be as straight as the other pickup.Now this immediately registered in my mind as something to think over,because ive always wondered about the very crooked neck pickup on my own ES-175.Ive always put it down to the nature of the arched top and thought 'all' archtops were like this.Ive heard alot about Gibson and their recent quality control,this guitar actually had a real bad soldering job and began cutting out on me before eventually dying all in its first gig with me,(lucky i lived up the hill from the gig and could grab my old strat!) At the time i bought this guitar i did not know what i know now,and in hindsight i wish i had never paid that much money (even though i did get an excellent discount),and instead i would have been better to hunt down an older model.But can anyone give me any more information about crooked neck pickups,specifically relating to the ES-175 (or any others if thats all you know).Regardless of this it is a beautiful guitar,but i guess i will never know how it compares to an older ES-175 until i find one.
Thanks everyone who answers to this!
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11-11-2011 05:55 PM
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Not sure what you mean by "crooked".
However if you mean that the metal cover within the plastic surround is tilted forward or back and seems to be stuck in that position then you merely have to loosen the strings and unscrew the pup surround and if it doesn't pop back into place by itself then you can easily move it while holding it. You may have to take the pickup out to manipulate it. (but you won't be disconnecting any wires of course). Sometimes those pups just get stuck on an angle.
I recently bought an older 175 style Gibson and this is exactly what I did.
If you mean that the pup is fitted on the wrong angle (cut into the body incorrectly) then take the instrument back and demand a replacement.
I can't imagine that this is the case though.
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I'm pretty sure that I know what you mean by a "crooked" pick up. All I can say is that it happens. There is no excuse for it . . . but it happens. You need to have a competent luthier remove the pup and see if the hole in the top was routed crooked. If so, it will be a chore to fix it and it will require additional cutting of the top. If not, it will require no more than a reset.
When ever I have seen this, the repair can be facilitated with no noticable marks. All of the corrective cutting (or alternative screw hole) will be hidden under the pup ring. Don't lose too much sleep over it. You say you saw Joe Pass' 175 and the pup was straight. How do you know it wasn't straightened???
To Philco who "can't imagine that this is the case" . . . don't be too surprised my friend. I've seen it happen more than once . . . and I just sold a gorgeous Heritage Super Eagle to Dr. Goetting with a similar problem. If Mark sees this post, he'll probably be kind enough to post a before and after picture.Last edited by Patrick2; 11-11-2011 at 09:49 PM.
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Thanks Mark. I hope your efforts are helpful to the OP, oudface and his ES175. Now . . . after looking at those pictures . . . I find myself questioning my sanity for selling that beautiful guitar to you. Don't forget man . . . . DIBS!!!!!!
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When I began getting serious about jazz guitar I decided to prove it by getting a Gibson (I got the ES137) and found myself in exactly your postion. I didn't have another to compare it with and so just trusted the name. I now realise that the quality control was poor to nonexistant - including a misalgned neck pickup. So poor, in fact that I can't believe I put up with it - but it was a Gibson, so it must have been OK. The top is so 'contoured' around the neck that the mounting ring when screwed down was distorted, which in turn fouled the pickup and made it impossible to get any proper adjustment. It was square with the neck (unlike yours) but was stuck at all sorts of angles across the mounting ring and wouldn't sit level because the ring itself was twisted. I put up with it for a while and then ripped the entire hardware out of it and rebuilt it all myself. I've shaped the mounting ring so that it fits the top and so presents a flat and level surface for the pickup - skills leant from re-wirng and upgrading all those Epiphones. Just lifting the Gibson out of the case the 'feel' of it is evidence of the fundamental quality of the instrument; but of the guitars I have bought (and there have been quite a few) the Gibson is the most disappointing. I rarely play it. I've since bought an Ibanez AS103 which though not quite as good quality in itself was immaculately setup and plays just as well for a third of the price. I feel I trusted Gibson,and they let me down. It's still the best guitar I've got, but it's the one I least happy with. I wouldn't buy another Gibson. If I was going to pay Gibson prices I would start looking at Sadowsky.
I tell you all this for a reason. The real issue I have with my Gibson is the sense of disillusion. Your ES175 most likely plays OK and is structurally sound, but if the pickup really bothers you either fix it yourself (if you can) or get it fixed. I never enjoyed playing mine - all I could ever see while I was holding it was that damn twisted pickup. Ripping it apart with my bare hands, seeing the mess Gibson had made of it, and putting it back together again, improved the instrument - but it destroyed the mystique. Once it was a GIBSON - now it's just a guitar.Last edited by RAQ; 11-12-2011 at 06:29 AM.
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Sorry i should have included some pictures to show is happening with this guitar.The angle 'under' the strings is where my concern is now that ive seen how straight the neck pickup from the ES-175 of Joe Pass is.
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RAQ . . I think this last paragraph of your post pretty much sums up most of the problems . . real and perceived . . associated with the reputation Gibson has developed for "occasionally" shoddy workmanship and Gibson's Quality Control/Assurance "occasionally" not catching it. We'll come back to the adverb "occasionally" a little later.)
Originally Posted by RAQ
The only real "disillusion" you had, was that you bought into the "mystique" that your guitar wasn't "just a guitar" from the very beginning. That it was a "GIBSON". Here's a news bulletin for you . . . Gibsons are in fact just guitars. Guitars built by people who are "just mortals" capable of mistakes, lack of focus, poor moral . . some due to their emplolyer and some due to situations outside the work place . . . but, untimately reflected in their lack of concern for doing the job correctly, lack of pride in their craft . . etc.. Similarly apply those human attributes, faults and imperfections to Gibson's quality control department and its people. There seems to be a perception that the Gibson of older days was above it all. I'm sure you will find flawed guitars from virtually every year Gibson was in business . . . as you will with every other major guitar company who is/was mass producing guitars.
So, now that I've had the opportunity to hear myself pontificate for a little while, back to "occasionally". For every ES175 and/or ES137 that Gibson sent out with a crooked mounted pup . . . how many would you estimate they sent out without that flaw? You, unfortunately, may not have had the opportunity to test the guitar in a music shop before purchasing it. If you had, you would have had the option of passing on that particular guitar, or had the shop fix the problem before you purchased it. I can understand your frustration with that. What I don't understand, is that you indicated that every other aspect of the guitar represents the quality that you expected . . . and you fixed the problem with the pup . . . but you still can't bring yourself to play the guitar. At the risk of further exposing myself as a pompous ass, I will be so bold as to suggest that you get over your frustration, grab that ES137 and play the shit out of it!!!! Same to oudface with his ES175. ES175s are fantastic and iconic tone machines.
Gibson is a competitor to the company that I, as a business man, am associated with. We compete on a daily basis for some of the same markets and sales. So, I don't take to their defense for self serving reasons. However, Gibson and its people are still making some very high quality, beautiful and great playing/sounding guitars. They also make some duds & dogs. I don't know how they slip through QC . . . but, they do . . . and they will. However, I've heard wonderful stories of how well Gibson stands behind its products . . . as do their dealers.
Those who seek perfection in every single guitar coming out of multiple plants that produce tens of thousands of guitars every year will obviously be disappointed. If you seek the untimate in perfection of guitar lutherie, you need to go to a master . . . someone like Monteleone, or Campellone, or Benedetto, or Lacey, or Comins, Manzer . . . etc., etc., etc.. Pick someone who will build your guitar with no other set of hands but his/her own. Then, be prepared to pay upward of $10,000 and wait well over a year to receive the guitar. Only then, can one reasonably expect consistent perfection and a flawless product.Last edited by Patrick2; 11-12-2011 at 11:10 AM.
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Those pickup covers look very corroded - but in any case your first photo looks very familiar to me. Is the pickup 'square on' in the ring - mine was, but the ring itself was distorted out of shape by the contours of the top. Yours looks very similar to the problem I had. Trying to get the pickup aligned with the strings was nigh on impossible because there wasn't enough clearance within the ring 'cut-out' to compensate. I removed the ring and shaped the base to fit to fit the contours of the top so the pickup would then sit 'square on' with the strings. Originally Posted by oudface
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Great post P2. You're quite right. I accept your complete analysis of the situation. Originally Posted by Patrick2
The quality thing I referred to was that by just picking the Gibson up it is possible to feel the difference in the weight and balance and quality of the materials - it's just a pity that (on this particular example) someone threw it together - and missed. I'll get it out later and give it a damn good strummin'. But you do, sort of, expect that when you pay Gibson prices someone has taken reasonable care putting it together.Last edited by RAQ; 11-12-2011 at 11:24 AM.
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much weirdness.. I am guessing the top is ok and you just need a new pickup ring.. I am with RAQ on his diagnosis.. I cant comment on the other verbiage since I didnt read it.
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You've obviously not played a Gretsch..............!
I should say, I have two, an old 1959 Anniversary model, and a 2003 Nashville Classic. Both have slightly wonky neck pickups, but both play superbly and sound great. The NC is the best guitar I've played, period.
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I remember 25 years ago when I had scraped money together to buy the camera of my dreams - a Leica M6. It turned out it had false light which fogged the film. They replaced it with another one. It had false light too. Then they discovered they had used a part from an earlier model which had a hole for a screw which the M6 didn't have - and through that empty hole came the false light. The third M6 was OK, but for me the Leica magic was gone. Originally Posted by RAQ
As the Leica agent told me: "Leica is not what it used to be - it never was".
After that, I viewed my Leica not as a magical item but - just like that - a camera, albeit a very good one. It followed me for the next 20 years and shot all the pictures of our son growing up. It's still the best camera I ever had.
A Gibson is just that - a guitar.Last edited by oldane; 11-12-2011 at 05:53 PM.
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I've found all the guitars I've ever had
needed things tweeking or modding slightly to get them playing right
and buzz free etc .....
its par for the course an makes the guitar feel more yours
its also cool to demistify the object
Just find a guitar you like playing (feels good sounds good)
and sort out the odd bits and bobs you don't like about it
and there you go ......
It doesn't have to be a name brand or anything
that doesn't matter
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oudface, it happens. And it looks like the neck pickup mounting ring is mounted UPSIDE DOWN. I cannot be sure about that but it looks that way to me. Mounted correctly the surface of the ring should lie parallel to the strings. You're not the first to fret about it and won't be the last. A simple fix is to just invert the mounting ring only. Also, the I suspect the bass side of the pickup is higher to balance out the bass to treble response. Well, the factory could have raised the bass screw pole instead but the guy assembling it just decided to raise the bass side of the pickup so it that lies closer to the bass E string.
In any case, it is a simple fix. No verbiage required.
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oldane, I think the magic of a Leica M lies in its M lenses more so than the M camera. The M camera has always been a tool that you love and hate because there is nothing else which works like it, warts and all. Well, it is the only company which has continuously had a rangefinder in its lineup. (Please no talk of Zeiss-Cosina IKON and Voigtlander-Cosina.) Sorry, that's for the camera forum.
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Sorry about your Heritage Golden Eagle, Marty. My 2005 Gibson 175 with twin P90s were mounted straight and level as were the 3 Classic 57s on my 2002 ES-5 Switchmaster.
All I can say is that it happens but the fix is usually simple.
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I've handled a few new ES-175 guitars over the past several years, and every one of them has had the misaligned neck pickup that the picture shows. Every one.
This is a poor oversight on Gibson's part.
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This is the 'after' photograph (I don't have a 'before' one) and - allowing for a rather poor photograph - the mounting ring does actually sit firmly on the top. The strings (allowing for the fingerboard curvature) sit fairly straight and level of course, but the guitar top directly underneath is very contoured. Screwing a standard mounting ring to it simply distorted the ring, to the point where it was virtually impossible to get the pickup to seat correctly. All that could be done originally was to adjust the pickup into the best available position. The result was the kind of crazy angle that oudface's has. I removed the mounting ring and shaped the underside to follow the countours of the top, so that the topside is now 'square on' to the strings. The pickup now adjusts, up and down, and sits squarely with respect to the strings - although, I grant you, the mounting ring looks strange - but only because it now follows the contours of the top. It seems to me, but then I'm familiar with it by now, that oudface's top has the same exagerated contours - and standard mounting ring is never going to sit squarely on it without some sort of adjustment. Originally Posted by tonedeaf
The solution (if oudface's problem is the same as mine, and it looks like it is) is 1) to get the ring fitted to the top to restore the correct pickup adjustment and 2) to abandom, as many have already said, the Gibson mystique. The first move is pretty straight forward, it's the second one that takes the effort.
Hope all this helps oudface out.Last edited by RAQ; 11-14-2011 at 01:29 PM.
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Thanks everyone for your detailed and informed replies.Yes the top of my guitar is very contoured where the neck pickup sits,and to me it looks as though the Gibson people have shaped the mounting ring to fit this contour,but that is where there 'shaping' and 'fitting' has begun and ended.I think if im going to get this pickup aligned back up to string level then i will need a new mounting ring that i will need to shape,but of course with the end result in mind of having a leveled pickup.
Unfortunately for those of us who arent in the know,Gibson is making alot of undeserved money despite there present quality control.Yes i am alot more aware now,just give me that time machine and i will go back and pass on that new Gibson and instead go on the hunt for an older used model.Actually those ES 175s with Mahogany back and sides would be my choice now instead of a present new model.Or even better have a Luthier make my own model!
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Oudface, you should check out Steve Holst, if you're looking for an archtop made by one man. Starts at $2800 for a laminated instrument.
If it makes you feel any better, you're not alone: http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/t...gomery-pickup/ . And that's an L-5 Wes Montgomery.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-15-2011 at 04:29 AM.
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Actually that is normal and sometimes just happens because someone pushed the pickup a little hard and it got stuck. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
I thought this was the OP problem but it wasn't.
On that L5 all you would do is undo the surround and lift the pickup out. If it hasn't already snapped back by itself then it's a simple matter of manipulating it.
I just did this to my 775 and it popped back. No problem.
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I seem to remember reading somewhere that Gibson, in its attempt to perfectly replicate the Wes Montgomery L5 that Wes himself spec'ed, installed the pick up backwards . . . because Wes spec'ed it that way on his guitar. I have a 2011 Gibson Wesmo, and it is indeed mounted/installed backwards. I wonder if that has something to do with the excessive tilt on that one in the photo.?.? Originally Posted by Philco
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It could have, if they were stupid - which can't be ruled out for shure when one sees the OPs pictures Originally Posted by Patrick2
. They could indeed mount an originally well fitted PU backwards by turning the whole PU ring 180 degrees, and then it would end up being very misaligned. The correct way of doing it is of course to take out the PU with the ring, turn around the PU 180 degress in the ring an put the ring back on the guitar body as it was originally mounted (hopefully correctly). BTW, I actually tried that with my 175 back in the 1970s to see if that was the secret of Wes' sound. As I remember, it didn't make much difference, if any, and of course my sound never got near Wes'.
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The bass side SHOULD be further from the strings.
You're looking for equal volume from each string, ideally, and BTW the further the pickup from the strings, the "airer" the tone.
Please research articles (including fronm Gibson) on pickup height adjustment.
Bill
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I went to a guitar center today to check out a used 2001 ES175. I ran into the same crooked pickup problem - except the pickup on the ES175 was mis-aligned because the top had a hump where the pickup was routed, causing it to be tilted forward. The sound of the instrument and its setup was fine otherwise, but I couldn't see myself spending literally thousands of dollars for an instrument with such an obvious flaw. The guitar center sales person told me that was "normal" on those guitars.
I guess this is indicative of both Gibson's quality control and Guitar Center's sales people...
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