The Guitar's Great Musical Weakness: Sustain

[NSJ]

I have watched and listening to Robert Fripp perform his Frippertronics and Soundscapes for many years, and I am AMAZED at his ability to sustain and hold notes--in the beginning, without cheating (pedals/effects/processing), just a volume pedal/a Les Paul/maybe some fuzz and wah.

I know it can't just be the guitar (I admit I have never played a Les Paul).

How do you guys and gals hold notes/sustain at the most optimal level without cheating? Anything in the left hand?

[NSJ]

I got the following explanation from an informed person on another website, at least about Fripp's ability to sustain notes.

"The main thing the left hand is doing is adding vibrato. That helps add to the sustain a bit. Fripp also uses a lot of slurs, ie glissandos, hammer-ons and pull-offs, which sort of helps keep the string vibrating.

But when you hear him hit one note and it sustains forever, I think that's basically controlled feedback. Nowadays, it's easy, get a guitar with a Fernandes Sustainer or a Sustainiac (or have one installed in your guitar) or use an E-bow, but back in the day, you basically had to crank the amp, and sort of work out, trial and error, what the best way to stand in relation to it to get the best sustain. It also helps if you use a wah wah or some other type of extreme EQ settings that you can vary easily (Frank Zappa had a custom parametric EQ installed in his guitars so he could dial in the right setting to get the kind of feedback and sustain that he wanted).

I remember reading on Tony Visconti's website where he mentioned that people ask him if Fripp used an E-bow on David Bowie's Heroes. Visconti said he never saw Fripp using an E-bow and that Fripp was the "master of controlled feedback".

[jmstritt]

One of the things you can do with a volume pedal is play with the volume pedal at about 50% taper. After you play a note, when it starts to decay increase the volume pedal to compensate. That basically does what a compressor does, but you are actually doing it manually.

[jmstritt]

You could do the same thing with the volume knob on your guitar.

[NSJ]

Originally Posted by jmstritt

One of the things you can do with a volume pedal is play with the volume pedal at about 50% taper. After you play a note, when it starts to decay increase the volume pedal to compensate. That basically does what a compressor does, but you are actually doing it manually.

Interesting. I'm going to get a volume pedal, anyway.

[cjm]

The Guitar's Great Musical Weakness: Sustain

Hell, I'm up for another in a series of morning rants.

I disagree with the basic premise. It's like saying the drums' weakness is a lack of sustain. Or that this is the weakness of the double bass.

It is a characteristic that makes the guitar what it is. There are lots of other instruments capable of sustaining a note for a long time, and some might say this has been badly abused.

George Van Eps sometimes referred to the guitar as a "lap piano." He didn't call it a "lap Hammond B3."

And it seems to me that the modern obsession with sustain, whether a matter of guitar design, player technique, or add on electronic effect, diminishes the qualities of the electric guitar as a jazz instrument that originally attracted players and listeners alike.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by jmstritt

You could do the same thing with the volume knob on your guitar.

I don't know if I've seen a jazz guy do that. Roy Buchanan was a master at that. They say it's a sound he took away from playing the pedal steel guitar.

YouTube Video

It's done with a camera close up from 2:20 to 3:00.

[jmstritt]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I don't know if I've seen a jazz guy do that. Roy Buchanan was a master at that. They say it's a sound he took away from playing the pedal steel guitar.



It's done with a camera close up from 2:20 to 3:00.

Yep it is straight out of steel guitar. Herb Remmington is the one that showed me.

[Doctor Jeff]

The typical jazz guitar sound is full, bass heavy and with little sustain. That's a consequence of early amplifier technology and the influence of bebop players who generally played in short staccato bursts of notes.

If you want to pretend you're Robert Fripp, and who doesn't, turn the gain of your amp way high and roll the treble off and those notes will stay out there forever. It's a lot of fun but doesn't really fit in a jazz context.

[pauln]

There is a technique used both in studio and on stage that allows you to get infinite sustain on any note, anytime, either clean or overdriven; and at any volume level you want (including very low volume level).

What you do is split your signal to two amps; one little one used to generate the feedback loop, the other one to present the results of that to the audience or studio engineer.

Here is how it works...

1] Split your guitar signal into two paths
2] Send one path to your primary amp - the one being recorded in the studio, or used on stage
3] Send the other path through a high gain pedal to a very small amp sitting on a chair directly in front of you (in the studio) or strapped waist high to a mic stand or similar arrangement (on stage)
4] Whenever you want infinite sustain, just step up close to the little amp

The big primary amp that is heard by the recording mic or the audience can be at any level (even very low level), and can be tweaked to get any tone (clean or otherwise) you want independent of the feedback (no special settings to get feedback).

The small amp right in front of the guitar will create a strong feedback loop, and the guitar signal to the big primary amp will be that constant signal, which the big amp will play however it is set up - clean, dirty, loud, or soft.

The small amp is not meant to be heard by any other than the guitar itself, and its tone quality does not matter. Its only role is to make the guitar feedback on all notes so that the split off output is presented to the big primary amp.

This means you can use a 2W Roland MicroCube with a 4" speaker to make a Marshall stack give up infinite sustain at bedroom practice levels.

The nice thing about this technique is that you don't have to do anything special to move into and out of infinite sustain except to just step forward to get close to the little amp, which only feeds back when you are within a few feet of it - simple and easy, and totally predictable and controlled...

You have heard this done in countless records and concerts.

[NSJ]

Originally Posted by cjm

Hell, I'm up for another in a series of morning rants.

I disagree with the basic premise. It's like saying the drums' weakness is a lack of sustain. Or that this is the weakness of the double bass.

It is a characteristic that makes the guitar what it is. There are lots of other instruments capable of sustaining a note for a long time, and some might say this has been badly abused.

George Van Eps sometimes referred to the guitar as a "lap piano." He didn't call it a "lap Hammond B3."

And it seems to me that the modern obsession with sustain, whether a matter of guitar design, player technique, or add on electronic effect, diminishes the qualities of the electric guitar as a jazz instrument that originally attracted players and listeners alike.
[/b]

I appreciate your persecutive, I'm not talking abut having an obsession with sustain, I'm talking about holding a whole note at ballad tempo. Stuff like that.

Actually, my interest with this area sprang from developing a combined left and right hand technique that generates a smooth legato line.

My teacher is the one who said that it (the lack of sustain) is the great weakness of the guitar. I've been giving this some thought-- I don't see anything wrong or controversial with that. He is a MASTER musician of the highest caliber for over 55 years as a professional musician-in jazz and in classical music, the people who are known at the very top of these fields know who he is. And he hates rock and roll and its related toys, effects, devices, etc. , even quit jazz for a while in the early 60s when rock and roll blew up and drowned out jazz; that's when he seriously began studying classical guitar).

So, I don't see anything wrong with stating that sustain is a weakness of the guitar.

[NSJ]

Originally Posted by pauln

There is a technique used both in studio and on stage that allows you to get infinite sustain on any note, anytime, either clean or overdriven; and at any volume level you want (including very low volume level).

What you do is split your signal to two amps; one little one used to generate the feedback loop, the other one to present the results of that to the audience or studio engineer.

Here is how it works...

1] Split your guitar signal into two paths
2] Send one path to your primary amp - the one being recorded in the studio, or used on stage
3] Send the other path through a high gain pedal to a very small amp sitting on a chair directly in front of you (in the studio) or strapped waist high to a mic stand or similar arrangement (on stage)
4] Whenever you want infinite sustain, just step up close to the little amp

The big primary amp that is heard by the recording mic or the audience can be at any level (even very low level), and can be tweaked to get any tone (clean or otherwise) you want independent of the feedback (no special settings to get feedback).

The small amp right in front of the guitar will create a strong feedback loop, and the guitar signal to the big primary amp will be that constant signal, which the big amp will play however it is set up - clean, dirty, loud, or soft.

The small amp is not meant to be heard by any other than the guitar itself, and its tone quality does not matter. Its only role is to make the guitar feedback on all notes so that the split off output is presented to the big primary amp.

This means you can use a 2W Roland MicroCube with a 4" speaker to make a Marshall stack give up infinite sustain at bedroom practice levels.

The nice thing about this technique is that you don't have to do anything special to move into and out of infinite sustain except to just step forward to get close to the little amp, which only feeds back when you are within a few feet of it - simple and easy, and totally predictable and controlled...

You have heard this done in countless records and concerts.

Very cool. Thanks!

[mambosun]

Originally Posted by NSJ

I have watched and listening to Robert Fripp perform his Frippertronics and Soundscapes for many years, and I am AMAZED at his ability to sustain and hold notes--in the beginning, without cheating (pedals/effects/processing), just a volume pedal/a Les Paul/maybe some fuzz and wah.

I know it can't just be the guitar (I admit I have never played a Les Paul).

How do you guys and gals hold notes/sustain at the most optimal level without cheating? Anything in the left hand?

In the early King Crimson period albums (up to "Red") as well as in Fripp & Eno albums, Robert Fripp had a very unique sound based on a 50's Gibson LP Custom, EH Big Muff, Crybaby Wha, volume pedals and of course a very special guitar technique as indicated previously.

The wah was mostly acting like a parametric EQ, which is the icing on the cake to get this particular and unrivalled "Snake Guitar" (Brian Eno quote) tone.

For the fun, have a look to Tony Visconti interview describing how Fripp got this extra long sustain while recording David Bowie's "Heroes" song:

"...when Fripp came along about a week later he added a whole other dimension. He and Eno had already enjoyed a long partnership where Fripp would plug his guitar into the EMS Synthi and Brian would just play around with it, so Fripp did exactly that and he came up with that beautiful line which everyone thinks is an E-bow sound, but which is actually just Fripp standing in the right place with his volume up at the right level and getting feedback.
"Everyone who's played the song with Bowie since then has had to use an E-bow to duplicate it, but Fripp had a technique in those days where he measured the distance between the guitar and the speaker where each note would feed back. For instance, an 'A' would feed back maybe at about four feet from the speaker, whereas a 'G' would feed back maybe three and a half feet from it. He had a strip that they would place on the floor, and when he was playing the note 'F' sharp he would stand on the strip's 'F' sharp point and 'F' sharp would feed back better. He really worked this out to a fine science, and we were playing this at a terrific level in the studio, too. It was very, very loud, and all the while he was playing these notes — that beautiful overhead line — Eno was turning the dials and creating a new envelope and just playing with the filter bank. We did three takes of that, and although one take would sound very patchy, three takes had all of these filter changes and feedback blending into that very smooth, haunting, overlaying melody which you hear."

Here the full arcticle form Sound on Sound:

CLASSIC TRACKS: Heroes

When I started to play guitar, my main goal was to come as close as possible to Robert Fripp sound, my guitar hero at that time (I've always been a Crimson fan!)
It took me years to nearly touch his tone with my 50 $ LP clone, Aria distortion stompbox, Boss CS2 compression/sutainer and Jen Crybaby wah pedal...It worked well with a Colorsound wah pedal too.

[=DK=]

That's an interesting take on it. The main weakness of the guitar's sustain in my opinion is it's lack of dynamic sustain, that is to say, starting a note quietly and making it gradually louder, like a horn player can. Now, there are ways, like volume pedals, and guitar controls, slowgearing, and feedbacking, but none of those sound natural to my ear.

Listen to this classic recording.

YouTube Video

Listen to the horn section in particular.

[fep]

I think rapid decay is one of the strengths of a Jazz Guitar. It helps on hear the details and articulations of chordal and chord melody playing. I think that is one of the reasons many Jazz players like hollowbody guitars.

[Al_F]

Very cool to read about how the 'Heroes' track was built, Mambosun. Thanks for posting. Just a few days ago this tune came on the radio, and though I had arrived at my destination, I sat in my car listening till it ended. Fantastic tune that really draws you in.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by fep

I think rapid decay is one of the strengths of a Jazz Guitar. It helps on hear the details and articulations of chordal and chord melody playing. I think that is one of the reasons many Jazz players like hollowbody guitars.

And that's the crux of the issue.

1. I wanna' play guitar.

2. I wanna' play a guitar like it is a Hammond B3.

3. My guitar doesn't sound like a guitar anymore because I treat it like a fake Hammond B3.

4. My guitar doesn't sound like a Hammond B3 either, because it's a fake Hammond B3.

5. I should have become a keyboard player in the first place.

The electric guitar has unique esthetic qualities that set it apart from other instruments and that took jazz by storm beginning in the 1930s. Efforts to make it something more, or something different, than it already was from its debut have not improved it. They have managed to diminish the electric guitar, however.

The trumpet can't play block chords. A bow doesn't work on a piano and rosin makes the keys dirty.It's tough to attach a hi-hat to a double bass unless you're Bugs Bunny.

The lack of sustain, and the difficulty of producing swell, relative to other instruments, is part of what makes the guitar a guitar.

It's something to be embraced and exploited, or else it is better to move on to a different instrument.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by cjm

And that's the crux of the issue.

1. I wanna' play guitar.

2. I wanna' play a guitar like it is a Hammond B3.

3. My guitar doesn't sound like a guitar anymore because I treat it like a fake Hammond B3.

4. My guitar doesn't sound like a Hammond B3 either, because it's a fake Hammond B3.

5. I should have become a keyboard player in the first place.

The electric guitar has unique esthetic qualities that set it apart from other instruments and that took jazz by storm beginning in the 1930s. Efforts to make it something more, or something different, than it already was from its debut have not improved it. They have managed to diminish the electric guitar, however.

The trumpet can't play block chords. A bow doesn't work on a piano and rosin makes the keys dirty.It's tough to attach a hi-hat to a double bass unless you're Bugs Bunny.

The lack of sustain, and the difficulty of producing swell, relative to other instruments, is part of what makes the guitar a guitar.

It's something to be embraced and exploited, or else it is better to move on to a different instrument.

Well, I have been on the lookout for a guitar that heats up my frozen burrito. A microwave does this...why not a guitar?

[cjm]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Well, I have been on the lookout for a guitar that heats up my frozen burrito. A microwave does this...why not a guitar?

You're going about it all wrong.

You need a combo amp with tubes and an open back cabinet. A roll of duct tape to attach the burrito to the amplifier chassis.

Just be careful not to heat bean burritos this way, otherwise the tubes will become gassy.

[markf]

the guy didn't ask for your opinions on sustain,

he asked how to get it.

some people answered helpfully.

[JakeAcci]

Just having a little fun.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by markf

the guy didn't ask for your opinions on sustain,

he asked how to get it.

some people answered helpfully.

Golly.

Of course the sustain the OP asked about really wasn't the sort of sustain that some people answered helpfully about.

It was more like the sustain Johnny Smith wanted when deciding his signature guitar should be X braced rather than parallel braced to add a bit more sustain.

In other words (his words), a whole note held at a ballad tempo. Any electric guitar can do that, although the whole note will undergo considerable decay over the count of four.

That's a good part of what makes a guitar a guitar. The example of a Hammond B3 again: The whole note won't decay over a count of four, eight, twelve...unless the organist deliberately does something to cause it to decay.

But the Hammond B3 organ isn't a guitar.

But in a larger sense, sometimes a guy will ask for another drink. And sometimes, rather than pour another drink, what is more helpful is to make a grab for his car keys...

[SamBooka]

Originally Posted by cjm

Just be careful not to heat bean burritos this way, otherwise the tubes will become gassy.

nice one... (and under 3 lines)

[markf]

yeah ok.overreacted. sorry.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by markf

yeah ok.overreacted. sorry.

Considering your location (Winterpeg, right?), your time in a frozen Purgatory on earth where something simple, like flushing a toilet, becomes an exercise in polar survival, you should never feel obligated to apologize.

Not to anyone. Not for anything.

If anything, it is the rest of us who should apologize to you for failing to rescue you and to make it possible for you to thrive and enjoy life for a change in a balmier clime...some place like Minot, North Dakota, or Burwash Landing up in the Yukon.

[Bushwackbob]

pauln: What is the easiest way to split the signal between the primary and smaller secondary amps (please and thank you!)?