Twelve-string not in Jazz?

[SmoothOperator]

It seems to me that the twelve string is not used much in jazz, I wonder why. Admittedly it seems like it is for people who want to carry a symphony in their back pocket. However for dynamics especially in early Jazz it seems like it would have found a place. The other anomaly is that it was used in early Blues especially Ledbetter. Is it that the octave doubles interfere with the sevenths and such?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

[Dad3353]

Do these count..?
12_Stri_Bass_2.jpg
12_Stri_Bass_1.jpg

[texasjazz]

Ralph Towner used one, Metheny too. Heck he's got a 42 string guitar!

[whatswisdom]

Mick Goodrick plays a Unitar

[cjm]

There is really no way of answering that doesn't have the potential to offend, but the question was asked:

The majority of jazz players feel twelve string guitars suck and blow.

The twelve string has no place in jazz/swing rhythm and comping...its ringing sound is the antithesis of the percussive inside chord work that melds with a rhythm section and supports a soloist.

The courses of strings and octave tunings do not lend themselves to trumpet like single note soloing.

The octaves mess up intervals and make the guitar's intonation sound "off" in chord solos.

There are no doubt other opinions that run contrary to what I just expressed. However, twelve string guitars have been available for a long time and as far as I know, no one stands accused of ever holding any "A-List" jazz guitarists at gun point to secure an agreement not to play jazz on a twelve string.

The fact that, aside from the occasional blunder forced by some dopey record producer, they didn't take to the twelve string, even though not under any duress, serves as my evidence that jazz guitarists do, as a class, regard the twelve string guitar as an instrument that simultaneously sucks and blows.

[woyvel]

Think about a C9 chord, C E Bb D (R-3-7-9), starting on the A string, 3rd fret. The 8 tones you'll have on a 12-string will be, in order of pitch, C E Bb C D D E Bb. That would sound rather messy.

Your usual 12 string is playing minor and major chords, with the occasional 7th that would usually be on the B or E string. I don't even want to think about an inverted -7b5 on a 12-string.

[stevedenver]

Originally Posted by cjm

There is really no way of answering that doesn't have the potential to offend, but the question was asked:

The majority of jazz players feel twelve string guitars suck and blow.

The twelve string has no place in jazz/swing rhythm and comping...its ringing sound is the antithesis of the percussive inside chord work that melds with a rhythm section and supports a soloist.

The courses of strings and octave tunings do not lend themselves to trumpet like single note soloing.

The octaves mess up intervals and make the guitar's intonation sound "off" in chord solos.

There are no doubt other opinions that run contrary to what I just expressed. However, twelve string guitars have been available for a long time and as far as I know, no one stands accused of ever holding any "A-List" jazz guitarists at gun point to secure an agreement not to play jazz on a twelve string.

The fact that, aside from the occasional blunder forced by some dopey record producer, they didn't take to the twelve string, even though not under any duress, serves as my evidence that jazz guitarists do, as a class, regard the twelve string guitar as an instrument that simultaneously sucks and blows.

i think this is accurate and direct indeed

[Silence]

Pat Martino plays a 12 string on his album "Desperado". Check it out.

[rictroll]

Totally unsuitable.

Unless you want to do something creative...

[cjm]

Originally Posted by rictroll

Totally unsuitable.

Unless you want to do something creative...

Bad and creative have different meanings.

[Flyin' Brian]

Metheny used it pretty well starting back with his first turn with Gary Burton. Lots of weird tunings, but they worked. He never used one in his own groups as an improvising tool, but for colors it worked well.

Then again there are those who don't think Metheny is a jazz player.

[bigdaddyguitar]

Gotta agree with CJM . He hit the nail right on the head .

[rictroll]

Since when does the instrument trump the player?

I agree that some of the factors mentioned explain why 12 strings aren't more common, but that doesn't mean they don't have their place.

Reference Ralph Towner.

[JakeAcci]

For straight ahead swing stuff obviously it's inappropriate - or to put it another way, it gets pretty far away from the general use of guitar in a jazz combo, as does a flat top acoustic. There have been plenty of creative uses of 12 string. Hell on Bright Size Life Pat used a 12 string, that's certainly a "big deal" jazz guitar record.

[bako]

Freddie Bryant plays one occasionally and so does Egberto Gismonti. In some ways it is a different instrument, but there are also a big range of differences between arch top, solid body, flat top, classical, flamenco, etc.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by texasjazz

Ralph Towner used one, Metheny too. Heck he's got a 42 string guitar!

Not my cup of tea. If you're into it, Towner is the one to check out. I used to have his "Ana" album. There's a long suite of pieces for 12-string on it. I'm sure his other recordings have 12-string. And I think he contributed some 12-string to one of the Weather Report albums.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by bako

Freddie Bryant plays one occasionally and so does Egberto Gismonti. In some ways it is a different instrument, but there are also a big range of differences between arch top, solid body, flat top, classical, flamenco, etc.

Exactly. And it is 2011. The definition of "jazz" has been stretched pretty far, I think it's okay for some things to fall under the word's umbrella even if they don't sound like Blue Note from the 50s and 60s.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Exactly. And it is 2011. The definition of "jazz" has been stretched pretty far, I think it's okay for some things to fall under the word's umbrella even if they don't sound like Blue Note from the 50s and 60s.

Perhaps...although the definition can be stretched so far that it ceases to have meaning.

Be that as it may be, the OP's question about the twelve string also applies to the stuff that doesn't "sound like Blue Note from the 50s and 60s." Although a few examples of twelve string guitar have been given, overall it remains the case that the plastic ukulele is nearly as well represented in "jazz" as is the twelve string.

And even where the twelve string does occasionally pop up in "jazz," it is almost invariably in a sub-genre that required a bit of stretching to still "fall under the word's umbrella."

[JakeAcci]

I too can "use quotation marks to sound condescending"

Just kidding ole' pal, I think most of this sub-discussion does come down to defining jazz.

If we are talking about jazz in the classic sense, then yes, I agree with all your reasons the 12 string doesn't make sense. If we are talking about, I don't know, the 21st century, then I say hey if you can find a cool use for it...

(100% chop-busting)

[Flat]

Anybody here ever hear Joe Pass's 12-string movie theme LP?

(I haven't, but I'd be curious to hear it, or hear about it. I actually liked his Rolling Stones LP. Maybe just because it was so incongruous. Or so Hip Sixties. Or something.)

[cjm]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

I too can "use quotation marks to sound condescending"

Just kidding ole' pal, I think most of this sub-discussion does come down to defining jazz.

If we are talking about jazz in the classic sense, then yes, I agree with all your reasons the 12 string doesn't make sense. If we are talking about, I don't know, the 21st century, then I say hey if you can find a cool use for it...

(100% chop-busting)

"Sometimes a quotation mark is just a quotation mark." Sigmund Fraud, 1927.

"Unless they're 'air quotes' then yes, that is my opinion. They are an attribution." Dr. P. Niss Invee, 1982.

"I am the very definition of punctuation. I almost always show up before the last set is over." Almost Any Guitar Player, since the beginning of time.

[oldane]

Maybe for the same reason grand barrè chords are rarely used in jazz. They sound too opulent and can make a rhythm section muddy and the rhythm feel heavy and clumsy. A certain lightness is IMHO needed for that uplifting swing feel. Often only two or three note chords are used when playing in a band, especially with a pianist there too.

[brad4d8]

Originally Posted by Flat

Anybody here ever hear Joe Pass's 12-string movie theme LP?

Yes, it's okay but not one of my favorite Pass recordings. It's available on the Mosaic box set of his Pacific Jazz recordings, but I don't think it's available singly. He doesn't really have the feel of a 12, IMO, it is a different animal.
Brad

[bako]

Is the 12 string guitar an active part of jazz history?--------- (an easy one) No

Is it an engaging sounding instrument?-----------Individual opinion.

Can a player simply transfer the way they play 6 string to 12?------In some instances yes, others no.

As a person who also plays jazz on cello, another instrument with a modest history in jazz I prefer to encourage the ventures of musicians playing less commonly used instruments in jazz.
What is gained by doing and thinking otherwise?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

YouTube Video

According to the notes, both John Abercrombie and Ralph Towner play 12 strings on this. Not going to label the music, but I like it.

[Kuz]

Leo Kottke!!!!!

Yea, not jazz, but one of the GREATEST concerts I ever saw and as a soloist to boot. I put his musicianship near to anyone else.

[VitalSigns]

I'm a little late to this thread, but I just came across this:
John Abercrombie: "Foolish Dog" (Cascais Jazz, 1980) - YouTube
I didn't realise that John Abercrombie got his chorusy
sound in the early 80's from a twelve string (as well as delay).
It was certainly a more ethereal sound than the Yamaha SG
six string he used later. It's a shame this style of chamber Jazz
seems to've died out - you can't get CDs of Arcade or M any more.
Wow - JA with hair, big 'tache, pick..

Jamie

[Jim Soloway]

In addition to the names already mentioned, Lenny Breau also used one early in his career. At the risk of stating the obvious, one off the reasons why you don't see a lot of it in jazz is because there really aren't a lot of quality electric 12-strings and as far as I know, there are no 12 string full sized archtops available and to a lot of players, that remains the only acceptable option.

[kris]

Originally Posted by Silence

Pat Martino plays a 12 string on his album "Desperado". Check it out.

Great CD"Desperado".
Pat plays "Oleo" really fast tempo and has great sound on 12 strings guitar.
Sounds like guitar with chorus...;-)
Most jazzy and swinging Cd I've heard on 12 strings .