Upgrading a 335 clone?

Tom Karol · #1 10-31-2011, 10:22 AM

I've got a (Korean) Crafter SEG480TMVS. It's a 335 clone but with a 25.5" scale. (See pic below.) I 'paid' (traded stuff worth) about $800 for it new. I then paid $40 for a fret/nut dressing and setup. It plays and looks really great (it's a bit heavy but well-balanced). So, I've been thinking of selling another guitar I don't use/need to fund major electronics/hardware upgrades - maybe $400 worth - and make it into a $1200 guitar that plays and sounds like an $1800 guitar. It will still be used primarily for jazz, but should also be able to cut it for rock. (I have a 'Tele' that I use for rock, but it can do jazz quite well; I want them to be able to act as back-ups for each other. They're both strung with roundwound 11's.) That's my rationalization anyway!

I want to (have my tech) replace the pickups, pots, caps, bridge, and tailpiece as necessary. (It came with Grovers, and the switch and jack seem solid as is.) Here's my list:

Pickups: Either Harmonic Design Vintage Plus or Lollar Regular Wind Imperials.
Pot's Etc.: CTS 500k pots with .022uf Sprague Orange Drop capacitors. I'll probably put gold Tele-style knobs on it for a different look - I'm used to using the set-screw location as an indicator.
TOM Bridge & saddles: What's the best - Gotoh, TonePros? How do I make sure it will fit properly (Asian/metric vs USA specs)?
Stop Tailpiece: Any reason to replace this too? If yes, see immediately above.

Any and all thoughts/suggestions gratefully accepted - thanks!

Steve Z · #2 10-31-2011, 10:30 AM

Nice looking guitar! I did the same thing with a Hohner SH-35 (great 335 clone), though I only replaced the electronics. I have never been convinced that spending the money on an upgraded bridge and tailpiece really makes a difference and there is not really resale value in upgraded parts on a clone so that money is just gone.

Here is a thread with some of the info on what I used... see post 4 and 5.
NGD!!! Hohner SE-35 (335 copy) - The Gear Page

If I were to do it over again I would just replace the wiring harness and the neck pickup as I never used the bridge. Again, just more money spent that didn't fit my need.

Good luck on your project and have fun!

Cheers,
Steve

Greco · #3 10-31-2011, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Karol

......and the switch and jack seem solid as is......

Great looking guitar Tom...I'm a big 335 fan.

I would certainly change the jack to a "Switchcraft" and I would change the switch to an "open" style if it is one of the cheaper types where the switch mechanism is inside a metal box/enclosure.

These parts might seem OK now, but they will likely wear/degrade quickly and become a nuisance. They are not expensive changes and will save you a lot of grief down the road.

Cheers

Dave

bluewaterpig · #4 10-31-2011, 11:40 AM

I upgraded my Gibson ES-333 with better pickups, a pickguard, new knobs, etc.

If you're looking for that great, classic 335 jazz tone, I think you have to go with the '57 Classic in the neck.

I also wanted some nice twang so I put a Gibson Burstbucker 2 in the bridge and I absolutely love that pickup.

The '57 Classic + Burstbucker 2 combination is a really unique combo. It makes your guitar a total jazz box when only the neck PU is engaged, and a fabulous Tele/B.B. twang machine with both or just the bridge engaged.

I highly, highly recommend the Gibson '57 Classic for the neck and the Burstbucker 2 for the bridge.

Tom Karol · #5 10-31-2011, 11:50 AM

All great answers - just what I'm looking for! Thanks! Keep them coming - I'm still in the conjecture phase!

gcb · #6 10-31-2011, 12:12 PM

Agree with your choice of pots and caps. Can´t commenton the pickups as never tried them.

Concerning the TOM bridge, my first comment is that it seems tobe placed upside down. Normally thesaddle screws should face the pickup. Maybe I am wrong, but suggest you checkthis.

Also be careful to measure what you have in there andsee whether you can find an exact replacement because being asian everythingdiffers, even with Gotoh bridges. If you go for the US measure replacement youmight have to extract the present bushings, obliterate the holes and drill new ones to accommodate thenew stud bushings. On one guitar afterextracting the bushings and filling the holes I put an archtop floating ebonybridge, and left the tailpiece. Should you do this you will probably need goldwheels. You could also attempt to make a new bridge fit onto the existing studs, butthat might require some filing or drilling and then there’s the possibility ofmarring the gold finish etc.

The same applies to the tailpiece, plus the fact thatgold finishes might differ between the TOM and the bridge.

What I did on one Chinese guitar was to change onlythe saddles. You will then have to deal with the thread difference, but for meit was the lest invasive operation, and I did that because it was definitely neededin that specific case because the saddles it came with were terrible. I alsowrapped the studs with Teflon tape to make them adjust snuglyinto the bushings.That way was able to eliminate unwanted metallic resonance due to the lowquality poor adjustment between components.

I have seen some Graph Tech saddles at the Stewmacwebsite. Never tried them. They are about the same price that a replacementGotoh bridge in gold. Maybe worth investigating.

You have a nice guitar there. Good luck!

kris · #7 10-31-2011, 12:42 PM

KTS tytanium saddles - great staff!!!

jorgemg1984 · #8 10-31-2011, 01:55 PM

I wouldnt care about tuners, tailpiece or bridge as long as they are working fine and they look good on the guitar. If I were you I would just care about electronics!

I don't recommend the Classic 57, its expensive for an ok pickup - for that price or a little more you can do best. Your options seem good but I will recommend again Bare Knuckles Stormy Monday (And their electronics are top notch too!) And if you will be messing with that part I would put a decent wire in there like vintage gibson braided wire and do a copper shielding.

Greco · #9 10-31-2011, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

....... do a copper shielding.

How would you do this?

Cheers

Dave

jorgemg1984 · #10 10-31-2011, 03:54 PM

Oh I don't know my tech did it on my archtop and 335 clone and no noise at all so far... But I think its actually an easy task and since he is working on the electronics its a good idea to do all the work in a row!

Tom Karol · #11 10-31-2011, 04:19 PM

This is great! This isn't actually a picture of my guitar, but mine looks just like it. About the bridge, that seems to be the way they ship it; I've seen at least 10 pictures of this model on the Web, and the bridge always has the screw heads facing the tailpiece. Why? I don't know! In any case, neither the bridge nor the tailpiece rattles or buzzes, the action/intonation is excellent, and there's plenty of sustain. So, the bridge and tailpiece may not need replacement. I really love the neck, and it's got frets that are narrow but a bit taller than vintage. As far as the tuners are concerned, they're real Grovers. Acoustically, it's not very loud but has good tonal balance. So, I feel that the pickups - which are just barely OK - are possibly keeping a great guitar from coming out. The plot thickens!

gcb · #12 10-31-2011, 04:43 PM

Have a look at these: Vintage Vibe Guitars: Humbucker Pickups

They come with two sets of magnets, one installed.

I have them with Alnico II magnets in a LP clone with CTS pots and plain ceramic disk caps (.047). Very good sound, good price and excellent service.

I have now received a StewMac Parsons Street HB. Some say they do the job.

Tom Karol · #13 11-02-2011, 07:15 AM

The plan develops (and morphs):

1) I don't want to sell a guitar to fund this upgrade.
2) I'll keep the bridge, tailpiece, and existing knobs for now and concentrate on the electronics (including pots, caps, switch, and jack).
3) I'm sure both the Lollar and Harmonic Design pickups are great, but they're both around $350 for the pair. I'm going with Wilde (Bill Lawrence) L90's. They're only $120 for the pair. I have lots of experience with Bill's pickups, and they've been consistently excellent. I know they'll be a good match for my sonic tastes and my Henriksen JazzAmp112.

So, here's the same picture with the pickups inset. What color do I get? I think all black will probably look the most elegant, but I'm still on the fence. What do you guys think? Thanks!

Greco · #14 11-02-2011, 08:20 AM

Black would be my choice also. It is the only choice of the 3 that would seem suitable, IMHO.

Cheers

Dave

ESCC · #15 11-02-2011, 09:24 AM

Black.

Very interested in your review of the BL L90s once all is done. Have his 202N and L48 in my Tele, great pick-ups.

Tom Karol · #16 11-02-2011, 09:51 AM

Yup/OK - black it is! I'll resurrect this thread when it's all done. Thanks.

Greco · #17 11-02-2011, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Karol

The plan develops (and morphs):

1) I don't want to sell a guitar to fund this upgrade.
2) I'll keep the bridge, tailpiece, and existing knobs for now and concentrate on the electronics (including pots, caps, switch, and jack).
3) I'm going with Wilde (Bill Lawrence) L90's. They're only $120 for the pair. I have lots of experience with Bill's pickups, and they've been consistently excellent. I know they'll be a good match for my sonic tastes and my Henriksen JazzAmp112.

FWIW...I would have decided to do just about the same as you state above.

We have a local pickup winder who does a great job and I would go with his products as I am familiar with them. Same concept as you going with Wilde (Bill Lawrence).

Cheers

Dave

gary mitchell · #18 11-04-2011, 03:51 PM

I just upgraded a Prestige Heritage Les Paul copy, anyway it was an up grade for me. Most of the time when you up grade a clone like guitar, it becomes worth something mostly to you. I wanted something completely different and it cost me $400.00 after it was done. I put TV Jone Classic Humbuckers and a new CTS pots Switchcraft jack and switch. For me using the tone controls I can get some amazing sounds, tru my Fender Blues Deluxe. But thats my opinion I love and don't think I will ever let it go, maybe know one wants it but me. So I say when you up grade to it for you, and don't try to please others. I have played to gigs with this guitar since I got it back, and had some real good feed back from other guitarist.

gary mitchell · #19 11-04-2011, 03:52 PM

Oh by the way black go with the black. Just kidding go with what you like.

Tom Karol · #20 11-05-2011, 12:53 PM

Yup - resale value be damned! (That reminds me of a story - a lot of stories actually ...) Oh, and since I decided not to sell my 3rd electric to fund the upgrade, I might not get to do it for a few months, but I will and I'll let you guys know when I do. Thanks!

Little Jay · #21 11-05-2011, 01:10 PM

I've exchanged quite a few pots and caps (and wiring too) in my guitar-career, and I have never experienced a noticable change (improvement) in sound, so imho opinion the whole craze about electronics is a myth, soundwise that is! I do like good quality pots like CTS because of the feel, reliability and workable range of those, but if your pots feel and work OK, then I would leave them alone...

Just my two cts!

seanlowe · #22 11-05-2011, 01:48 PM

Might be a bit late - but its worth looking into ibanez super 58's. i bought a pair for £40 years ago and they sound fantastic in a semi hollow, something about them really resonates nicely.

Tom Karol · #23 11-05-2011, 03:04 PM

Well, this is a bit embarrassing. After my last post, I decided to do some change-of-seasons tweaking to the truss rod and bridge. Good results! So it all of a sudden hit me: I haven't adjusted the pickups since right after I got the guitar about a year and a half ago! I've always felt the neck pickup's bottom end was too muddy and the bridge pickup was just plain wimpy. So I lowered the neck pickup and raised the bridge pickup and adjusted for overall balance between bass and treble and between pickups and then micro adjusted for string-to-string balance. I believe I've just gleaned a 20% improvement in tone! (We'll see if I feel the same way tomorrow.) So, I still intend to go forward with the upgrades previously discussed, but I no longer feel the same sense of urgency! However, I may get a set of gold Tele-style knobs now that I'm actually using them - I can't see the darn numbers on these things anyway! [Disclaimer: check this thread tomorrow for possible further updates; I may have changed my mind again by then!]

va3ux · #24 11-11-2011, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Jay

I've exchanged quite a few pots and caps (and wiring too) in my guitar-career, and I have never experienced a noticable change (improvement) in sound, so imho opinion the whole craze about electronics is a myth, soundwise that is! I do like good quality pots like CTS because of the feel, reliability and workable range of those, but if your pots feel and work OK, then I would leave them alone...

Just my two cts!

Agree 100%. Many (most ?) guitarists don't realize that the signal going to the amp does not pass through the tone pots or caps. It's the portion of the signal that gets dumped to ground and never leaves the guitar that passes through the tone pots and caps. Therefore those parts aren't going to affect the quality of the signal going to the amp. Changing the values will certainly change frequency response. But swapping a 20 cent ceramic disc cap for an equal valued but over-priced 40 yr old paper/foil cap is useless.

Now, install different parts because the existing ones are scratchy or unreliable or have a profile (audio taper vs linear) that you don't like : certainly. That's a valid reason.

I always feel slightly sorry for the suckers who buy the hugely overpriced vintage parts on eBay - stuff pulled out of 30 or 40 or 50 year old guitars - thinking that there's some magic tone improvement in those parts.

Wanna hear an instant change in the tone of a guitar ? Buy a different chord and plug it in.

cjm · #25 11-11-2011, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by va3ux

Agree 100%. Many (most ?) guitarists don't realize that the signal going to the amp does not pass through the tone pots or caps. It's the portion of the signal that gets dumped to ground and never leaves the guitar that passes through the tone pots and caps. Therefore those parts aren't going to affect the quality of the signal going to the amp...

I have to agree less than 100%.

What you described is sort of a water flow abstraction of an electronic circuit...useful for visualizing physical layout...but not for understanding function.

Capacitance to ground is very much part of an AC signal path.

For example, later in your post you mentioned the guitar cord. An abstraction of coaxial cable is as an LC circuit wherein for every inch of length and for every unit of inductance added by that length, an opposite and counteracting capacitance is added...the outer surface of the center conductor and the inner surface of the shield form a capacitor, and since the shield is grounded, it is capacitance to ground.

But I do agree that tone pots and caps generally contribute little -- good or bad -- unless they are defective, and I often remove the tone pot and cap completely so that it isn't accidentally "rolled off."

Tom Karol · #26 11-12-2011, 04:16 PM

After further fine tuning, some additional experimental knob twiddling, and lots of playing ... I'm leaving it as is for now! GAS attack over (until the next one)!

Jabberwocky · #27 11-13-2011, 12:47 PM

Nothing works better than a good old-fashioned set-up, eh, Tom?

I second Bare Knuckles Stormy Monday. KTS titanium saddles sound like a good tweak and when I find the cash, I will try them.

brad4d8 · #28 11-13-2011, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Karol

I may get a set of gold Tele-style knobs now that I'm actually using them - I can't see the darn numbers on these things anyway! [

Barney Kessel used to replace his knobs with "chicken head" knobs. He said then you didn't need to see the numbers because the point showed where it was. They come in differetn colors, too
http://guitarpartsresource.com/guitarknobs_chickenhead.htm
Brad

Drumbler · #29 11-13-2011, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brad4d8

Barney Kessel used to replace his knobs with "chicken head" knobs. He said then you didn't need to see the numbers because the point showed where it was. They come in differetn colors, too
http://guitarpartsresource.com/guitarknobs_chickenhead.htm
Brad

I did this with my archtop. They work great. You can tell where you the knobs are set with a glance.

Got them on eBay for a few dollars.