Starting Jazz Guitar, looking for tips on buying an Archtop / Amp

[MrCharles315]

Hello everyone,

I'm a newbie guitarist. I have only been playing guitar for about a year but I'm sure that jazz is my passion and, as such, I'm planing on buying my first hollowbody guitar together with an amplifier. I'm posting this so as to get some advice from you experts, who have been at this for much longer than I have .

Although jazz (particularly smooth jazz) is really what I'm into, I'm still really interested in all other musical genres, and as such I would like (if possible) to get a guitar with a tone flexible enough, to go from jazz to blues to funk or even some rock and country.

I've been looking at entry-level archtops, and at the top of my list, so far, sits the combo Ibañez Artcore AF-75 and the Roland Cube 40XL. However, I've not been able to get much information on the pickups installed on the AF-75 and that leaves me a bit unsure. Another combo which I have in mind is the beautiful Epiphone Broadway and the Cube 20XL. I've also looked at the Epiphone ES-175, but what I think I really want is a full-sized archtop in order to get that full, warm sound.

As you might tell, I'm not certain as to which of the two (guitar or amp) I should invest more. Should they be balanced, should I get a nicer guitar and later on purchase a nice amp or the other way around? I have a budget of about 750 ~ 800€ for both items + a case which I'm sure I want to buy as to have my future archtop well kept. Please send out some ideas on what you think would be best for a real beginner at this wonderful art.

Thanks in advance and best Regards

[mr. beaumont]

The 175 isa full sized archtop.

If you want to play other kinds of music on the same guitar, you might consider a semi hollow.

You can't go wrong with the cubes. Get the bigger one in case you end up jamming with folks.

No other advice on the guitar end, other than play as many as you can, or order online from someone with a good return policy. Sometimes it takes a while to find the right guitar.

[Patrick2]

I agree with mr. beaumont. Based upon what you say you want to play, a full size arch top would be a big mistake, if it is your only guitar. A semi-hollow . . . Gibson ES335 or Heritage 535 type guitar will give you everything you are looking for. Probably the most versatile guitar you can buy. Larry Carlton, Lee Ritenour, John Scofield, Eric Clapton, Grant Green . . . . hell, even SRV was photographed with a beautiful dot neck ES335 for the cover of one of his albums. Warren Haynes has a beauty too. B.B. King, Otis rush, John Lee Hooker, Chuck Berry, Alvin Lee. It will scream and howel when you want it to . . . flip on to the neck pup, turn down the volume a bit and get some great jazzy mellow tones out of it as well.

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, taking nothing away from a full archtop--they're a breed all their own and one I love--but there's really not many guitars that excel at jazz and are versatile like a semi hollow.

Unless of course, you wanna talk telecasters

[Greco]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Unless of course, you wanna talk telecasters

Good one!

Doing a little pot stirring, Mr B. ? ........LOL

Cheers

Dave

[jorgemg1984]

To my taste and feel a 335 is a compromise for both rock and jazz - its the price of versatility. If its your only guitar it might be a good choice (with rounds) but I have one and an archtop and the archtop beats all the ways for jaz... I see a lot of people playing with the 335 these days (due to versatility and Rosenwinkel I think) and I miss listening more people with archtops.

[cjm]

My two cents:

You will ultimately need two guitars.

A guitar setup as a compromise for playing jazz and rock will fall short with one, or the other, or both. The two guitars could be the same model; for example, a pair of ES-335 clones -- or they could be more specialized, for example an ES-175 for jazz and a Stratocaster for rock. That choice is less important than that each guitar be setup for its intended purpose as part of your tool kit.

Within reasonable limits, the amp is probably more important to your jazz sound than the guitar. Top quality jazz amps tend to cost more than entry level jazz boxes -- generally more than $1k US for new. But entry level jazz boxes can be upgraded relatively easily with better pickups, new bridges, some judicious fretwork, etc...and these upgrades don't have be performed (and paid for) all at once.

The market is nearly saturated with new and used plywood Asian built ES-175 clones and L5 look-a-likes (that are actually ES-350 clones) for between $300 and $1000. With decent strings, some minor upgrades, and proper setup, most of these can be made suitable for professional use...and that's what I would suggest as a first jazz box.

[Doctor Jeff]

I usually offer the Epi Joe Pass as a good entry-level archtop (and it is), but if you want to play other styles of music, I would go with either a 335-type guitar or a Telecaster. Both can be had for a decent price - one of the pitfalls of young guitarists is spending a lot of money for a dream guitar before you know exactly what kind of music you will be playing in 10-15 years.

A Tele with higher gauge strings and an SD Alnico 2 pickup at the neck is an awesome jazz machine - would have been my first guitar had I known then (30 years ago) what I know now.

I would also consider the Fender Super Champ XD as a good hybrid amp with Fender tone and decent effects and emulations at a great price.

[MrCharles315]

First of all, thank you for all your replies. You really managed to "stir the pot" inside my head.

I'm not sure a full sized archtop would be a big mistake as I really do love Jazz the most out of all music genres, and I think one can play funk and blues and say, rockabilly on archtops, right?

The jazz tone I sometimes hear on YouTube coming from archtops is just so beautiful and inspiring (such as this), but I suppose those are very expensive setups, and maybe I can't get such a tone on my budget, what do you think?

I've also been listening to some Telecasters, and some are in fact amazing when it comes to a jazz tone, and overall versatility, but from what I see there is a huge variety of Telecasters, could you suggest some particular models for me to look up?

I do agree with cjm, one guitar can't do it all, but since I'm getting really into jazz I'm really leaning towards either a semi-hollow or a full hollow at this time. What are your thoughs on the Sheraton II and the 335?

Best Regards

[Doctor Jeff]

A MIM Tele is a good start. The Classic Vibes are pretty good also in my opinion. Some people like a humbucker at the neck, but i have an SD Alnico 2 that is nice and mellow. Just try a few.

The Sheraton 2 is a nice guitar, full hollow. Epiphone just came out with a 339, which I think is a cool guitar as well. With a good setup and perhaps some new pickups the Epiphones generally play pretty well at a fraction of the cost of their Gibson counterparts.

[mr. beaumont]

Sheraton's a semi hollow, I believe...the casino is a fully hollow thinline body.

[rpguitar]

With all due respect to my fellow responders, the "need" to own more than one electric guitar is really more the burden of the far more experienced player. Our OP has been playing for only one year. Don't complicate his world.

An ES-175 strung with nickel roundwound 11's and equipped with a metal tune-o-matic style bridge is extremely versatile. It will rock, twang, and bop just fine - especially for a new player who has quite a while before he'll "grow into" what the guitar is capable of. There is no rule that says you must put flatwound 13's and a wooden bridge on them. That is what makes such a guitar less versatile, not the box itself.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by rpguitar

With all due respect to my fellow responders, the "need" to own more than one electric guitar is really more the burden of the far more experienced player. Our OP has been playing for only one year. Don't complicate his world.

An ES-175 strung with nickel roundwound 11's and equipped with a metal tune-o-matic style bridge is extremely versatile. It will rock, twang, and bop just fine - especially for a new player who has quite a while before he'll "grow into" what the guitar is capable of. There is no rule that says you must put flatwound 13's and a wooden bridge on them. That is what makes such a guitar less versatile, not the box itself.

Which is why I said the OP would ultimately need two guitars.

[Doctor Jeff]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Sheraton's a semi hollow, I believe...the casino is a fully hollow thinline body.

You are correct sir. However the Sheraton is a really badass-looking guitar with the John Lee Hooker mojo. Much nicer than your average Dot.

[coolvinny]

Nobody's chimed in to mention you don't need an archtop to play jazz? If cost is a concern, just grab any old tele (preferably with a humbucker, but definitely not a necessity), throw on some TI flatwound 10's or 11's, and you're set. You also needn't break the bank on an amp - a ZT Lunchbox is probably all you need and they cost $300.

[cjm]

I suppose we could have asked the OP, but since he described his experience as having played for the past year, and that he now primarily wants to play jazz, and wanted advice on a hollowbody/semi hollowbody, but also wants to play blues, funk, rock and country...I made the assumption (always dangerous) that he probably already has a solidbody guitar that would serve the multi-purpose role about as well as anything...and so I confined my comments mostly to the entry level hollowbody guitar.

So how about it, MrCharles315? (If 315 is indeed your name. ) What kind of ax have you already got, and that might serve as your rock guitar alongside something dedicated to jazz?

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

You are correct sir. However the Sheraton is a really badass-looking guitar with the John Lee Hooker mojo. Much nicer than your average Dot.

I would agree.

Actually, the Sheraton's a nice choice, and one of the few times I like the "blingier" model... The ones I've played have always been set up well with a nice fit and finish...a well done guitar.

[rpguitar]

If the OP considers a hybrid of the 335 and 175, that being a fully hollow but thinline guitar of pseudo-Gibson lineage, I have one I'd sell for a decent price:

A 50th Anniversary Epiphone Casino in ice tea burst, with only a couple hundred measures on it. Was $800 new (great deal!) and could be yours for, like, $650 plus shipping.

PM me if interested. And even if not, the Casino is a nice choice for a versatile guitar.

[MrCharles315]

Nope, 315 is not part of my real name. ehehe
I apologize for the confusion, I should have made my post a little more informative.

As a matter a fact, I really do not own any guitar other than my steel stringed acoustic, and this purchase would pretty much be my first take at owning an electric guitar. I've been considering the full hollow / semi-hollow because jazz solos really are what make my heart speed up, but I'm still very "fresh" at guitar playing, and maybe it does make sense to have a solid body first, such as a telecaster, and later on move onto a hollow body, but what do you think? Could a beautiful epiphone casino or sheraton II be as versatile as a telecaster, and still provide that warm mellow tone for jazz which I 'm looking for?

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by MrCharles315

Nope, 315 is not part of my real name. ehehe
I apologize for the confusion, I should have made my post a little more informative.

As a matter a fact, I really do not own any guitar other than my steel stringed acoustic, and this purchase would pretty much be my first take at owning an electric guitar. I've been considering the full hollow / semi-hollow because jazz solos really are what make my heart speed up, but I'm still very "fresh" at guitar playing, and maybe it does make sense to have a solid body first, such as a telecaster, and later on move onto a hollow body, but what do you think? Could a beautiful epiphone casino or sheraton II be as versatile as a telecaster, and still provide that warm mellow tone for jazz which I 'm looking for?

I'll just jump in here and offer up my opinion. If as you say you are relatively new to guitar playing, and as yet haven't totally experienced learning and playing different types of music . . . . I would think that you are going to be much better served with a Casino type guitar than a solid body . . . or a fully hollow bodied guitar. The semi will allow you to comfortably learn and play . . .. anything. Then, if your taste remains strongest for jazz guitar, you could move on afterwards to what ever floats your boat.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by MrCharles315

As a matter a fact, I really do not own any guitar other than my steel stringed acoustic, and this purchase would pretty much be my first take at owning an electric guitar.

Well, hell. I thought I was really onto something...

Actually though, one thing you might consider is buying a sound hole pickup for the guitar you've got and buying an amp. Something like this:
GuitarCenter

Then (depending on the model pickup you get) you might string it up with nickle strings instead of bronze and get to work.

No, it's probably not going to be a great sounding jazz guitar. But you're also probably not looking at playing gigs within a year or so anyway, and the money you save can go toward a decent amp, and some acoustics with such a pickup actually do sound fairly good through an amp suited to jazz.

Something to think about. Defer expense, continue to learn theory and technique, and add to your stable once you have more experience under your belt.

[rpguitar]

Either way, the choice between a Casino or a Tele (or a Strat, or Les Paul type for that matter) is just not that critical. I mean, it really isn't. These are common, versatile electric guitars that can be and have been used for nearly any kind of music, and (most importantly) they can all be setup to be very playable. The decision at this point comes down to your sense of aesthetics and the "vibe" you want.

The Casino is like the Gibson ES-330 used by Grant Green and Emily Remler. The Tele is like Ed Bickert, Mike Stern, and Ted Greene. Nearly every iconic electric guitar has had someone famous appear with it at some point throughout history. Go with your vanity here.

CJM's suggestion is perfectly valuable too; it's just not as much fun as buying a new guitar! I will say, though, as a person who has played for about 35 years in total but primarily on acoustic for the past 5... that really working on your acoustic guitar chops will make you fly on an electric. There's nothing like it for developing strength and dexterity.

[MrCharles315]

Thanks for your advice cjm, I really do appreciate it, but I'm really set on going electric, as I've played in quite a few and they're just so much fun for trying stuff out, and I really think I'd learn faster than on my stiff acoustic.
As such, would you agree with Patrick2, in regard to an epiphone casino being a nice choice?

EDIT: Thx rpguitar, I really do agree that it's more fun to buy a new guitar, ehehe. And, as far as my vanity goes, I really would have no doubts in going for a casino as they're just so *beautiful* I won't leave my acoustic behind though, it's still a very nice guitar and useful to practice.

[Al_F]

Look at this Casino -

Seafoam green, bigsby, peerless factory ...!

Epiphone Casino (Turquoise Green w/ Bigsby)

[cjm]

Originally Posted by MrCharles315

Thanks for your advice cjm, I really do appreciate it, but I'm really set on going electric, as I've played in quite a few and they're just so much fun for trying stuff out, and I really think I'd learn faster than on my stiff acoustic.
As such, would you agree with Patrick2, in regard to an epiphone casino being a nice choice?

Well, I have played/owned some semi-hollows, and I've played, but not owned, a Casino.

My own preference is for a deeper bodied archtop electric. And that is the only perspective from which I can answer. It isn't about tone, per se...more about the level of aural and tactile feedback provided by the guitar even when playing through an amp. Plus, the Casino has a shorter scale than I like.

But those considerations don't necessarily apply to anyone else. And absolutely...a Casino is capable of making all the jazz noises you want to make with the right setup.

So yes, it is potentially a "nice choice."

I don't necessarily agree that you would learn more quickly than you would with your "stiff acoustic." "Stiff acoustic" can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. You see, I don't have any way of knowing whether your "stiff acoustic" is a $75.00 pawn shop wreck with loose frets and a permanently bowed neck, or a nice clean Ovation with a fairly light action as acoustic flat top actions go.

If it's a decent guitar, then switching to a good electric like the Casino might make it seem as if you're suddenly progressing at a higher rate for a couple of weeks...but over a period of a year you might have progressed further with the acoustic.

If it's a broken down wreck, then sure...you'll learn a lot faster with a better guitar.

If you are taking lessons, I suggest you also discuss this idea with your instructor. Unless he or she is also selling guitars (and feeling a bit hungry) the advice offered might be better than you can get here, because your guitar and your skill level is better known to your instructor than any of us can guess at.

[Peter C]

If you like hollow body guitars, I think your original idea to buy an Artcore AF75 and a Roland 40XL is sound. Good enough to gig with.

My own AF75 can do hollow body Funk, Rock and Country (I imagine) just fine. It's a blast to play, too. Recommended string gauge would be at least 11s. Mine seems to prefer pure nickel strings to the nickel plated type (so do I). Flatwounds are great but will limit versatility (Rock).

I remember seeing someone on YouTube playing Heavy Metal on an AF75. It didn't sound any worse than a solid body.

The pickups will be fine to start off with. You may want to get a tech to replace the string nut for one with wider spacing because the stock one (on mine) makes things a bit cramped.

[gcb]

The Casino has single coil dog eared P90 pickups.
A 335 will normally have humbuckers.
There is a difference there you should also consider. If you are decided to go electric try guitars with both kind of pickups.

[goshawk]

Just to muddy the waters a bit, you might want to look at the Eastman El Rey 2 or 3.

They position the ER 2 as a "deluxe jazz model" -- it's fully hollow but small and without f-holes. It has a spruce top on maple back and sides and a jazz tailpiece.

The ER 3 is "semi-hollow," in that it has a block under the bridge. It's maple on mahogany and has a stop tailpiece.

Here's a nice video of someone playing blues on an ER - not sure what model.

And here's a nice example of the ER 3 sounding jazzy.

[MrCharles315]

Again, I'd like to thank all of you for your contributions, they have been most helpful, I'd also like to apologize for taking so long to reply.

@cjm:
Well, my "stiff" acoustic must be somewhere in between of $75 and the Ovation. I bought it right when I started guitar following the advice of my instructor and so far it hasn't let me down. It's from what I gather to be a Chinese brand called "Academy", but I really don't have any more info on it. I'm really just looking for a change of tone and the possibility to experiment new things with more "ease".

My instructor does sell guitars unfortunately, and he might be a bit hungry with all the economical problems we've been having around here. ehehe

I've been watching quite a few YouTube videos of different guitars, and I'm pretty sure I'm going for the Epiphone Sheraton II, as it seems to be the most versatile of the thinlines. It sounds amazing for blues, as stated by Doctor Jeff, it was John Lee Hooker's main guitar, it can also be a very well sounding jazz machine, and I've seen some other examples of it rockin' and funkin' very nicely also. I think I'll buy it as being an all rounder, and for now, considering I still have plenty to learn about everything I think it'll do just fine.

Now, all I'm missing is the second half of the equation, the amp. I've seen the Fender Super Champ XD in action in quite a few videos (some even with the Sheraton II) and it sounds great. It does stand a little out of my budget, and being it a tube amp, does it not require regular maintenance? I'm really not going for gigs anytime soon so this amp would be just a practice amp. Any ideas?

[cjm]

Originally Posted by MrCharles315

I'm really not going for gigs anytime soon so this amp would be just a practice amp. Any ideas?

Yes. But you're not going to like my idea.

Here it is anyway.

The Fender Super Champ XD is an inexpensive amplifier. If, as you say, that is a bit out of your budget, do not even think about buying a different guitar at this time.

Buy a sound hole magnetic pickup for your acoustic guitar.

Then revisit your budget. If the Fender Super Champ XD is still beyond budget, continue playing the acoustic without an amp until something in the price range of the Super Champ XD is in your price range.

That said, the Super Champ XD may or may not be the right amp for you. That doesn't matter at this moment, because it is at least, in a reasonable price range. There are other amps -- new and used -- that might be better suited to your needs...but since they're outside of budget...you cannot afford to buy one at this time. That is the bottom line.

A new electric guitar and a lousy amp, or a new electric guitar and no amp at all, represents no advantage over what you have now, and actually, probably a bit of a disadvantage.

Buy the sound hole pickup, and if that allows you to afford an amp in the price range of a Fender Super Champ XD, then it is worth considering what amp represents the best choice/value.

If not, buy the pickup and begin saving for an amp so that it doesn't represent a financial sacrifice or burden when it is time to buy an amp.

Now, I understand that you aren't going to take that advice, but I feel a responsibility as someone who is clearly a damned sight older than you are to offer it anyway.

Show this thread to some old guy and see what he has to say.