Starting Jazz Guitar, looking for tips on buying an Archtop / Amp

[jorgemg1984]

Originally Posted by MrCharles315

Now, all I'm missing is the second half of the equation, the amp. I've seen the Fender Super Champ XD in action in quite a few videos (some even with the Sheraton II) and it sounds great. It does stand a little out of my budget, and being it a tube amp, does it not require regular maintenance? I'm really not going for gigs anytime soon so this amp would be just a practice amp. Any ideas?

Look for a second hand 80s solid state amp - Peavey Bandit 65, Roland old Cubes, Yamaha G series, Fender M80... they are usually very cheap, loud, clean and have decent reverb. Where exactly do you live? A guy on the forum just scored a 1x15 80s Cube for less than 50 pounds I think - you cant beat that!

[pauln]

Some thoughts...

The Ibanez jazz guitars are fine. I play the AG-175 on stage and it sounds perfect. Got it new for under $300 a few years back. It has a nice low "thump" in the tone that suits jazz and blues real well. Only things I changed were to lower the pickups all the way down, swap out the metal bridge for a one-peice wood bridge, and I put big fat flat wound strings on it (high E is "13").
Lowering the pickups gives a very natural tone and response. Even with the bridge cable sized strings, the guitar is a breeze to play.
For performance I use either a Princeton or a Deluxe Reverb, both are small tube amps, and with the pickups lowered all the way down I play these amps clean at full volume and get perfect tone at stage level - not too loud at all.

As far as what to do starting out, it is really not so important what you have in the beginning. I started out playing a $29 solid body electric WITHOUT AN AMP for the first SIX YEARS!

So what I mean is that what you can learn on is different than what you need to perform with... If you can manage to get nice stuff at the beginning, that is great. But, as you develop you will likely discover many things and your "requirements" will change; so it is not a bad strategy to adjust your gear as you go rather than trying to hit the final configuration too early to know the difference.

The suggestion to put a pickup on your acoustic is interesting. One of my favorite jazz albums is "Extrapolation" 1968 or 1969, John McLaughlin in his early 20's playing with bass, sax, and drums... he used an acoustic guitar with a sound hole pickup.

The suggestion to get a Telecaster is interesting, too. I learned all my earliest jazz on a '72 Tele Custom and Gibson G-20 solid state amp. What you learn, and learn to play and hear, is much more important than what you play it on... when the time comes that you "need" to have certain gear, you will know what you need.

[MrCharles315]

I knew I hadn't heard the last from you cjm!

Well, I'll just cut to the chase, I'm a foolish and reckless young guitar lover, holding a passion for jazz and carrying 800€ currently burning a hole in my pocket. And in this particular instance, I also have complete disregard for the wise advice of wiser men.
I thank you for your concern, and I appreciate the care, but, being as foolish as I'm being now, I will not follow your wise advice.

Now, *trying to* move on I really could go for the Super Champ XD, my budget is not that tight, but surely not all amplifiers bellow the price of the Champ are "lousy", no? And by the way, you did not answer my question on tube amplifiers such as the Champ requiring additional maintenance.
What say you?

[cjm]

Originally Posted by MrCharles315

being as foolish as I'm being now, I will not follow your wise advice.

Well, you cannot move in with me when you piss away your last penny, so go right ahead! There's no room anyway, what with my own kids not following my excellent advice either!

Now, *trying to* move on I really could go for the Super Champ XD, my budget is not that tight, but surely not all amplifiers bellow the price of the Champ are "lousy", no? And by the way, you did not answer my question on tube amplifiers such as the Champ requiring additional maintenance.
What say you?

Okay, fine. I hate tubes. I spent decades working with tubes in a different field. In guitar amps, they sound great...when they work. But they don't necessarily sound any better than solid state.

I think jorgemg1984 nailed it with his advice above...look for an older, all solid state amp. Don't know about the European market, but here in the States you could buy a used Polytone MB II for what a new Super Champ XD will cost you. For less money, the amps jorgemg1984 mentioned would fill the bill.

Impetuous youth!

[Skjold]

If you definitely want a full hollowbody I would suggest a Godin Kingpin CW II. The two P90 pickups will give you a wide range of tones, and the guitar is a great value for the price. I have one and I love it. Google the cognac burst, it's a very handsome guitar.

If you are open to a solidbody guitar, I would also recommend a telecaster. The tele would be a bit easier to play than a hollowbody (easier access to higher frets, easier to form chords, etc) and can cover a broad spectrum of sounds. With that said though, I do love my Godin.

For amps, I have owned a bunch and think the Roland Cube would be a good place to start. You can always move up to a more expensive tube amp later if you decide you want one, and for now the Cube would give you a lot of sound options (I really like the jazz chorus, blackface, and tweed sounds) and it also has the advantage of a headphone jack for quiet practice. I used to own the Cube 30 and it was a nice amp. I also own the microcube bass amp (RX) and I love it so much I have been tempted by the guitar version. I really love the battery powered aspect (no cables) and the built in drum machine is great for developing timing.

[Silentwiz]

I have way too much stuff... and the cubes are my go to amps. Yes, you can buy much nicer sounding stuff (AI, Henriksen, etc), but the price tag goes up remarkably. Further, most casual listeners will really struggle to acknowledge the difference.

On the guitar front, I've sure tried to bond with hollow/semi and I just plain can't do it. Hurts my back, hurts my shoulder, forget it.

I'm with the guy who said a Seymour Duncan Alnico Pro II pickup in anything works.

I have a handful of guitars these days, but I sure love my Squier Classic Vibe 60s Strat with a single SD Alnico Pro II in the neck. I could (and do) play a lot more pricey instruments, but this one really sings to me.

[Helgo]

Hi Mr. Charles.

I played some guitars from the Ibanez AF range and none of them was a bad guitar. For my feeling they lack a little bit in "mojo", but they are really well built and great sounding guitars, especially considerung the price. (up to now I never owned one, though)

As for Telecasters I can recommend the Fender MIM´s. There are good ones and bad ones, and one person´s good one might just be the next person´s bad one, if you know what I mean. So either you could go to a store that has a lot of different tellys there or you order from someone with a return policy. As you seem to be located in Europe, I can recommend thomann.

Also, rockinger.de offers really good Teles at a decent price.

I would probably go for (at least ) two guitars, probably a hollowbody and a Tele...

The most important thing, imho, is that you have the guitar set up by a guitar tech. This really is essential. A good guitar tech will turn a factory product into an instrument at the cost of two crates of beer... I never regretted one Euro I spent on a guitar setup.

As for amps I don´t think you can go wrong with the Cube 40xl. It will suit you for a long while as your playing develops and even if you are jamming with others. Once your playing evolves you will automatically develop a taste of your own and you can buy something more sophisticated (and expensive) when you know what you want.

Hope this helps,
Cheers,

H.


Edit: I just read the rest of the thread and saw that you´re going for a Sheraton II. Definetely not a bad choice imo, if you don´t happen to get a bad one by bad luck. Have fun with it!

[mje]

A few thoughts:

1. You can play any style of music on any guitar, really. Gabor Szabo played jazz on an Ovation Acoustic with a magnetic pickup on it. Ed Bickert played a Tele. Charlie Byrd and Earl Klugh use(d) classical guitars. And so on. That having been said, I gotta say I largely agree with the 335 crowd. For a new guitarist, I'd recommend the Epiphone Dot.

2. Don't buy an old solid state amp- at least, not unless you really know what you're doing. While many are fine, repairing some is near impossible. They use parts that are unavailable, or that can only be replaced by someone who understands the circuit topology well enough to reconfigure it.

[richard vandyne]

mr charles let me put to you my recent experience because it is like your situation. i had been looking for a jazz guitar(inexpensive) for a long time and wanted something that looked great , had a mellow tone and would be good for other types of music aside from jazz. my quandry was acoustics and electric. i really liked the epi shearton 2 and heard it was good acoustically as well as electric. since i was on a budget and didn,t want to buy an amp i thought also about an epi es175 archtop. the shearton looked better and was more impressive so i bought it (600) WHEN IT GOT TO MY HOME I SOON FOUND OUT THAT IT WAS TERRIBLE ACOUSTICALLY. now i had to buy an amp. and it was the wrong one. what a mess. if i would have bought the es175 instead i could have had an axe that would play both ways and could have saved a lot of problems. semi-hollow guitars need amps. if i were you i would consider buting a guitar that is a hollowbody that you like and can be played electrically. just another thought !!!!

[oldskoolchop]

i have not been able to read all of the post that have been posted so sorry if i repeat things that have already been said, i have the ibanez artcore as73 semi, the ibanez 335 copy, it is a great semi and has some good jazz tones, great great blues tones, and some descent rock, although i recomend solid body for rock, but if you want a jazz tone first and a rock tone is secondary than a semi will do you just fine, as for the pups, in my opinion with any entry level ibanez (and most the time any other) be ready to change them, all of the artcore that i have played, my semi and others and even the full hollow, the pickups are exactly what you call entry level, and speaking for myself, I chose my guitar with the understanding the pups would be changed

[jazzsinger99]

A few tips on buying a quality archtop for a great price (at a budget of 800 Euro or about $1100$) you can actually do quite well:
1. Don't buy brand new. Just like a car, the minute you walk out of the store, the value (think ebay, Craig's list) goes down perhaps 30-40%.
2. As such, go to Guitar Center, Sam Ash or any shop that lets you try out a bunch of archtops. Find what you like best and learn how to do auto searches on ebay (daily emails) and craig's list (get their pro version phone app) and you'll eventually score your favorite at well below retail.
3. For a great price/value all solid wood archtop, check out Loar. Outstanding archtops, beautiful "remakes". I scored a used LH-550 for under $600. They now have entry models in that price range brand new.
4. For great price/value laminates, check out Peerless. I payed $700 for a used Jazz City and that model has a solid top.
5. Another way to go but this will take some education on your part is to try out some vintage archtops that normally sell at the $1,000 price point (think gibson ES 125, Epiphone Zephyr or Century...) and find one with non original parts. Now your $700 can score you something like a 1955 ES 125 but with perhaps no pickguard and "improved" tuners. I recently scored a 1940 ES 300 with new tuners and pickup swapped out for a Johnny Smith for $850 (this is a $4000 guitar if all original)!
6. OK, so you've spent say $700 or so on your Craig's List discovery archtop. Now how 'bout an amp for $400. While some folks do not like "acoustic" amps for archtops, my Fender Acoustasonic (spelling?) sounds awesome with my Loar and the Acoustasonic Jr. version can be found on Craig's for under $200. Used Fender Hot Rod Deluxe can be had for under $400, as can Cavin Nomad or BelAire. All great tube amps for jazz clean. Roland Cubes also in your price range..
Hope this helped a little.
Gerry
PS: This is my first post.