Archtop Set Up: Do you go ALL the way?

[bluewaterpig]

Here's my situation: I had my main guitar set up yesterday, an Eastman El Rey 1. Now I know a lot of people claim that their guitar tech is "one of the best", and I'm going to follow suit. My guitar tech is a guy named Audric and he works at the music store that I teach at. People literally drive from hours away and bring him a dozen guitars at a time to have him work on.

Here's my question: Audric is a perfectionist when it comes to setting up an archtop and he strives to get it playing "perfectly". He told me yesterday that he couldn't do a "full" setup because I have some fret problems (loose, unlevel, etc.). He said that to get this guitar playing absolutely perfectly, he'd have to do some pretty major overhaul and fret work and it would end up costing about $220. There's no question whatsoever that Audric would just be trying to make more money off of me, I'm not worried about that at all.

He did set up the guitar as best he could given the situation and I think it feels pretty damn good to play.

I'm not looking for "well if you think it's good, then that's all that matters" because I obviously know that, but do you guys have overhauls done to your guitars? Do you think it's worth it to really strive for a "perfect" setup?

[fep]

I bought my Eastman from J Hale Music and it was set up by them.

It feels great and plays great so it has never occurred to me that there could be anything wrong with it's set-up. So since that's the way I feel I won't bother with changing a thing.

I'm not sure if I knew what you know if it would bother me enough to go for the $220 fix.

Perhaps ignorance is bliss...

or

There is no such thing as 'perfect'.

[bluewaterpig]

True.

I've never heard the term "overhaul" used for a guitar setup, but apparently it's something commonly done. Has anybody ever had one done to their guitar?

[JazzyJim]

Originally Posted by fep

Perhaps ignorance is bliss...

or

There is no such thing as 'perfect'.

I think both of these can be true with guitars. Also, setups are a personal thing - what I may prefer could be another player's idea of unplayable.

Generally, I try to get the action where I prefer it, with no dead spots or buzzing and get the intonation as spot on as possible. Once i've set the pickup height, I am pretty much satisfied. The only thing that really annoys me about guitars is poor intonation. Maybe I don't have the eye for detail a pro tech has?

bluewaterpig - did Audric ask you what you specifically what you wanted, or is it his idea of "perfect"?

[SamBooka]

The bridge on my guitars have thumbscrews for a reason..

Somedays I like it high.. some days low..

[cjm]

Originally Posted by bluewaterpig

He did set up the guitar as best he could given the situation and I think it feels pretty damn good to play.

I'm not looking for "well if you think it's good, then that's all that matters" because I obviously know that, but do you guys have overhauls done to your guitars? Do you think it's worth it to really strive for a "perfect" setup?

The problem with answering that is that if you actually do think it's good, then that really is all that matters.

I don't know what your experience level might be, so I can only answer from my perspective. I've played enough different "high end" guitars set up by skilled luthiers that I know what is possible and what feels good and sounds right to me.

Last year I spent several hundred dollars in setup, replacement parts, and structural mods to turn a $300 guitar into a gigging ax. I did this because the guitar's dimensional specs were what I wanted, but could not find outside of the "vintage" or custom built market for thousands of dollars. A good chunk of that money was spent on fret work.

If, as delivered, the guitar had felt good to my hands, and had sounded good through an amp to my ears, then I wouldn't have spent anything additional.

Perhaps your real question is, "Are budget priced guitars worth the investment of additional money to get them playing and sounding the way we want a guitar to play and sound?"

And there, I believe the answer is, "Yes." But there is no point in spending more than is required to make it play and sound satisfactory to you. It might make your guitar tech happy because he/she is a bit obsessive, but you're the one who has to play the guitar.

[keith]

" There is no such thing as 'perfect' "

I think this reflects my view or more importantly, is there a problem that you have with the fretwork? If it ain't broke don't fix it!!

This reminds me of an incident I had with my road bicycle. I took it to the shop to get something fixed and they mentioned that the bike was recently recalled because the barrel adjusters had initially been improperly fixed to the frame. Now I had put thousands of miles on this bike which was 6 years old at the time and had never had a problem with these adjusters and the turnaround time on the fix was 3-4 weeks and this was at the time when the weather was improving from winter. Well I told them let's wait on it but perhaps you could guess that within 2 weeks the damn thing had sprung off the frame and needed to be sent back. At least I knew I had a problem!

I can't see any harm in waiting on it now until it presents itself as an issue for you. Look at that initial quote above for some perspective. Good luck.

[Gramps]

There is no perfect setup. Setup is established by a players preference and technique.

[rpguitar]

He's probably so sought after because he's a perfectionist. That's not something "wacky" that should cause people to discreetly look at each other and shake their heads when he's not looking. He is being asked to assess your guitar, and because he's critical and capable, he is probably seeing inconsistent fret height, lack of proper crowns, and stuff like that. Can't blame the guy for being good.

It does cost decent money to do fret work. That said, I can't speak for $220. I brought my vintage L-12 in for an actual re-fret (which we didn't end up doing; long story) and was quoted $250. But maybe that's due to demand for your particular repairperson.

I did come away from my two long meetings with the guy in my area realizing that work on a vintage guitar is nearly always full of compromises. I'm not so sure I would feel like spending a lot of money on a recent Eastman that, as you say, basically plays well already. It was different with my 76 year old girl, which has a bit of an odd setup that I was trying to optimize.

[jazzbow]

How do BWP.
Loose frets and uneven frets are common on mass produced guitars but must be unusual for an Eastman that is handmade. Anyhoo, individual high frets can be reseated back into place using a fret press and sometimes glue is necessary. High frets can be individually filed and reprofiled. $200, seems to me he would be a top class perfectionist for that amount.
I recently had a Peavey JD guitar which had fallen over in such a way that some how unseated 17 out of 22 frets at their edges by as much as .008 of an inch
The time it would have taken to glue the fret ends down etc the projected cost was the same as a refret! Which is what we did in the end.
So, 15 mins per loose fret then a fret dress and set up would be the order of the day, so figure on $35/$40 per hour = 5 hours, yep, good price.
The thing is that now that you've been told about the loose frets that'll play on your mind. My old jap strat had loose frets for years, it played well even though with enough finger pressure the fret would move in its slot. I eventually took the frets out and re seated them without replacing them, Still plays as well so don't worry.

If someone can explain how to paste pictures on posts I'll supply some pics

[kenbennett]

Yes, you need to do it.

Someone said there's no such thing as "perfect", but certainly there is "not good enough", and your Eastman seems to be in that category. Loose frets are no good. Uneven fret heights are no good.

Your tech may intend to refret the whole thing or repair, level and dress the existing frets. Either way is good. He knows what to do.

The money seems about right either way.

[morroben]

I would agree that ignorance is bliss, but I'm very picky about fretwork. I've done about 3,000 level & crowns (much of that in a factory setting) and bad fretwork drives me nuts. Good fretwork and a good setup (which requires good fretwork) is 75% of what makes a good guitar in my view. I'm obviously biased, but that's how I feel. I can't imagine owning a $1500 guitar and not bothering to deal with the fretwork.

[morroben]

Originally Posted by Gramps

There is no perfect setup. Setup is established by a players preference, technique, and the limitations of the guitar.

corrected

[cjm]

Originally Posted by morroben

I can't imagine owning a $1500 guitar and not bothering to deal with the fretwork.

In general, I agree with that, but I've also encountered some situations where is wasn't worth the bother.

If everything else is okay, but if, for example, during a thorough checkout the tech finds that the 19th fret is a little loose, I'm not going to sweat it if it isn't causing a buzz...sometimes the problems pointed out by luthiers are less an issue with playability than they are a matter of the luthier's obsession with perfection.

I want the problem pointed out to me, but then I'll decide whether it's worth the expense to repair or not.

[morroben]

Originally Posted by cjm

In general, I agree with that, but I've also encountered some situations where is wasn't worth the bother.

If everything else is okay, but if, for example, during a thorough checkout the tech finds that the 19th fret is a little loose, I'm not going to sweat it if it isn't causing a buzz...sometimes the problems pointed out by luthiers are less an issue with playability than they are a matter of the luthier's obsession with perfection.

I want the problem pointed out to me, but then I'll decide whether it's worth the expense to repair or not.

I can understand that. I'm certainly a perfectionist in this area and it's unrealistic to expect everyone to feel the same way about it. And I have no doubt that I would feel differently if I couldn't do my fret repairs myself and had to pay someone else to do it. I don't like to spend money any more than the next guy. But if I'm $1500 (guessing here) deep into a guitar that's pretty good, I would put the extra $200 into making it great.

[Patrick2]

I honestly do not see the concern or the issue here. If you trust this guy and he says this is what the guitar needs, in order for it to be perfect ... then you have 2 options; option A . . . "OK do it and I'll pick it up when it's done." Option B . . . "wow man. . that's more than I expected. Forget perfection, how much will it cost to make it acceptably playable??"

But, I will say this . . . . if you need to take people's temperatures here on this forum about what's appropriate . . . then you are probably questioning your guitar tech's credibility. That ain't cool!! If you trust this guy and he's as good as you say he is, then man up, spend the money and have the guitar brought up to perfection. If not . . . seek out a new tech. Otherwise, why would you want to own or play a guitar that is set up to be, passable in a rush, if I may use that term.

[NSJ]

In light of the subject matter description noted in the thread title, I immediately thought of this 1991 Al DeMeola album (and no, that's not really an arch top, but the question still remains if he still "goes all the way" )

[bluewaterpig]

All very good pieces of advice.

The thing is that I know how I react to guitar set ups. I could have a tech do a "pretty good" job and I'll get it in my hands and think oh this plays great. The same guitar could be set up "really well" and I'll think ok I thought that it played great, but now it really plays great. This could continue on and on until the guitar really is perfectly set up.

For all of those saying there is no such thing as a "perfect" set up, most guitar techs would disagree. I know what you're saying, but to a guitar tech, a perfect setup is possible when you're able to adjust the bridge pieces and match them against the fretboard and the nut, and this is only possible when every single fret is perfectly level across all strings. When a tech can access a guitar like this, he can raise and lower the action pretty freely to match a players preference. So in that respect, there is a such thing as being able to do a perfect setup.


I'm going to go ahead and get the work done for a few reasons. First, I know that I'm going to have that moment of "ok I thought it played nicely before, but now it plays amazing" after it's done. Second, the El Rey's are relatively inexpensive archtop guitars and I think the extra few hundred dollars is money well spent.

[morroben]

I think you'll be glad you did. If the tech is as good as you say he is, then you'll have a really great instrument when he's done.
I still moonlight doing fretwork and certain repairs and setups for one of the local shops. The "no such thing as a perfect setup" comes up every once in a while. I always find it annoying. It's kind of a safe argument, I suppose. A human made the guitar, I'm a human doing a setup, and a human is going to play it. Humans aren't perfect, and we have humans at every step of the process. So yeah, nothing's perfect. And it's also true that the "perfect" setup is different for everyone.
BUT, the limitations of the instrument should never dictate the setup. If the action is higher on one of my setups, it's because the player wants it that way, not because the guitar buzzes or rattles when the action is lower. If a player doesn't bend too often, that is by choice, not because the guitar frets out when they bend. If a player doesn't use open strings too often, that's by choice, not because the nut is cut poorly.
There may be no such thing as a perfect setup, but there is such a thing as doing it right.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by morroben

I think you'll be glad you did. If the tech is as good as you say he is, then you'll have a really great instrument when he's done.
I still moonlight doing fretwork and certain repairs and setups for one of the local shops. The "no such thing as a perfect setup" comes up every once in a while. I always find it annoying. It's kind of a safe argument, I suppose. A human made the guitar, I'm a human doing a setup, and a human is going to play it. Humans aren't perfect, and we have humans at every step of the process. So yeah, nothing's perfect. And it's also true that the "perfect" setup is different for everyone.
BUT, the limitations of the instrument should never dictate the setup. If the action is higher on one of my setups, it's because the player wants it that way, not because the guitar buzzes or rattles when the action is lower. If a player doesn't bend too often, that is by choice, not because the guitar frets out when they bend. If a player doesn't use open strings too often, that's by choice, not because the nut is cut poorly.
There may be no such thing as a perfect setup, but there is such a thing as doing it right.

Stricktly speaking, you are of course right.

The problem is that many guitar technicians have the idea of one and only "perfect setup" and applies that to every guitar passing through their hands. A couple of years ago, I brought an acoustic archtop which I use for rhythm playing and thus have set up with high action and a bit of relief, to a repair shop for a tuner replacement. The technician was a nice guy. He apparently found my preferred setup all wrong and - free of charge and without asking - lowered the action to about 1½ mm and straghtened the neck completely. He proudly handed the guitar over to me with the words "now it plays with no effort". I had to explain very politely to him (after all he did it with the best of intentions) about the needs for the kind of playing I was doing with that guitar, why his "perfect setup" didn't work for that, and that big sound and dynamic range was my first priority, not comfort. I must admit, though, that big band rhythm guitar style is very much an anacronism, and even good repair men may not get across a guitar set up job for that more than a few times in his professional life, so they should be excused. That leaves a responsability with us, the players, to tell the technician beforehand exacly what we like and want and why.

Well, bringing the guitar back to my preferred setup when I got it home was not a big job. But I think this case illustrates why people may say that there are no "perfect setup" - understood as the one and only perfect way of setting up all guitars for all purposes.

[fumblefingers]

i wouldn't tolerate loose or uneven frets...

unless the problem is a single location that rarely gets played - like the 6th string at the 18th fret or something.

new fret(s) from the tech, then go PLEK.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by oldane

Stricktly speaking, you are of course right.

The problem is that many guitar technicians have the idea of one and only "perfect setup" and applies that to every guitar passing through their hands.

Yes, therein lies the problem of trusting most guitar techs more than you trust yourself.

When I want something done, I could take the guitar several hundred miles to a luthier that I could just tell, "Make it right, and I'll be back in a couple of weeks."

But I know what I want done, and I know whether the the local guy is working within his limitations or not, so I can have the work done locally by telling him precisely what I want done...and to do no more or less than I specify.

A lot of guys who work on guitars -- in fact even a lot of guys who build archtops -- are not into playing guitar and don't even like jazz. A luthier who builds a decent clone of an L5 and then proceeds to demonstrate its tonal qualities by stringing it up with .009's and then banging out a few open string cowboy chords and a halting rendition of "Smoke on the Water," is not some one I am likely to give carte blanch to set up a guitar for me as he sees fit.

But if his workmanship is good, and if he/she does what is asked and no more, then I'll use their shop for some of the work I want done.

Frets that prevent the action from being set down to 2/64ths are not necessarily uneven if I'm not going to ever allow it to be set lower than 5/64ths. If the 4th and 12th frets are loose -- it has loose frets and needs repair. If the 19th fret is loose, but not causing any problems -- it does not have loose frets. Yes, natural bone makes a "better" nut than plastic, but since I am not going to "let it ring" on a three finger cowboy G chord, I couldn't give a rat's ass whether it has plastic, bone, or a zero fret, and if I brought it in to have the output jack replaced, I don't want him to install a new nut solely on the basis of his judgment, and never without conferring with me.

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by cjm

Yes, therein lies the problem of trusting most guitar techs more than you trust yourself.

When I want something done, I could take the guitar several hundred miles to a luthier that I could just tell, "Make it right, and I'll be back in a couple of weeks."

But I know what I want done, and I know whether the the local guy is working within his limitations or not, so I can have the work done locally by telling him precisely what I want done...and to do no more or less than I specify.

A lot of guys who work on guitars -- in fact even a lot of guys who build archtops -- are not into playing guitar and don't even like jazz. A luthier who builds a decent clone of an L5 and then proceeds to demonstrate its tonal qualities by stringing it up with .009's and then banging out a few open string cowboy chords and a halting rendition of "Smoke on the Water," is not some one I am likely to give carte blanch to set up a guitar for me as he sees fit.

But if his workmanship is good, and if he/she does what is asked and no more, then I'll use their shop for some of the work I want done.

Frets that prevent the action from being set down to 2/64ths are not necessarily uneven if I'm not going to ever allow it to be set lower than 5/64ths. If the 4th and 12th frets are loose -- it has loose frets and needs repair. If the 19th fret is loose, but not causing any problems -- it does not have loose frets. Yes, natural bone makes a "better" nut than plastic, but since I am not going to "let it ring" on a three finger cowboy G chord, I couldn't give a rat's ass whether it has plastic, bone, or a zero fret, and if I brought it in to have the output jack replaced, I don't want him to install a new nut solely on the basis of his judgment, and never without conferring with me.

Good morning Mr. cjm! Wrong side-o-the bed this morning? Ya sound pissed. I do totally agree with your "rant" . . . but, sorely miss your good natured wit and humor. If I didn't know better, I'd say the you must've physically hurt a guitar tech or two somewhere along the way??

I remember taking my long guard 1959 ES335 TDS, purchased out of Buck Sulcer's collection, to a local luthier. He had/has the reputation as being one of the best in the state. I wanted a total set up, including fret board treatment and recrowning. He looked at the neck and said . . . "there's absolutely no relief in the neck". I said "Yes. I know . . . that's the way I want it". He said "but, that's wrong. You must have relief, due to the sting oscillation and ... bla, bla, bla," I said . . "yes, I know. But, I want it totally devoid of any relief". He said . . "but, that's wrong". I said . . "put my God damned guitar back in the case and give it to me".

I agree with those who say that there is no such thing as a perfect set up . . . per se. Reason being, the term "perfect" is not a subjective term open to interpretation. There are ump-teen versions of what "perfect" is supposed to be, as it relates to setting up a guitar. Perfect for me, may not be perfect for others.

In my not so humble opinion, the best approach to setting up a guitar and then delivering the player's desired end results . . . is what I experienced from Phil Jacoby of Phil-Tones guitar repairs in Baltimore. I called him, set an appointment for him to set up my newly acquired Golden Eagle while I waited in his shop (and annoyingly looked over his shoulder through the whole process). When I arrived, he asked me to play the guitar for him. Said he wanted to see "how hard I hit". He looked the guitar over, told me what he felt it needed, including a little relief in the neck. I told him I wanted the neck as straight as the first 100 feet of a projectile coming out of the barrel of an M14. His response . . . "Ok, that's what we'll give you". He set the guitar up on the Plek . . . got a read out and showed it to me. Interpreted what he was seeing into language I could understand, made recommendations and asked what I wanted to do. I naturally said . . proceed full speed ahead. After the guitar came off of the Plek . . . Phil further refined the nut slots, the ebony bridge slots and took an irregularity out of the bridge base to make it conform even more perfectly to the sound board. Then, he polished the frets to perfection, restrung the guitar. Then he played it for a few minutes (that was a very humbling experience for me) handed it to me with a smile and said . . . "I think you'll like this". The guitar was "perfect" . . but to my own interpretation of "perfect to my expectations" . . . if that makes any sense at all.

That whole dance cost me $175.00, not including the cost of the drive down from The Jersey Shore to his shop in Baltimore.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Good morning Mr. cjm! Wrong side-o-the bed this morning? Ya sound pissed. I do totally agree with your "rant" . . . but, sorely miss your good natured wit and humor. If I didn't know better, I'd say the you must've physically hurt a guitar tech or two somewhere along the way??

Naaah. It's a long story, and one I don't need to go into other than to say it involves a general practitioner, a two axle Freightliner and a bellydump trailer, a logging road, and Jason Lollar.

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by cjm

Naaah. It's a long story, and one I don't need to go into other than to say it involves a general practitioner, a two axle Freightliner and a bellydump trailer, a logging road, and Jason Lollar.

Issues man . . . I know what you mean. We all got'em. Just remind youself that it's Saturday, you're still alive . .. and you've still got your guitars and your guitar skills. If that doesn't do it for ya . . . then, come to the realization that it's always 5:00 PM somewhere.

[bborzell]

This thread started out questioning the notion (and cost of) a perfect setup. Where it got a bit off track, in my view, was the acceptance of the premise that repairs of components should reasonably be included in the commonly understood concept of "setup".

Any guitar that needs parts refinished or replaced is being repaired. If the cost to address the fret problems is added to a typical setup charge, then +/- $200 is not at all unreasonable. That same charge for work that involves adjusting and tweaking existing components would be excessive, in my view.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

... and you've still got...your guitar skills.

Oh, way to rub it in. Here I am, enjoyin' the hell out of things and you bring up something ugly like that.

Now, I'm depressed.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by bborzell

This thread started out questioning the notion (and cost of) a perfect setup. Where it got a bit off track, in my view, was the acceptance of the premise that repairs of components should reasonably be included in the commonly understood concept of "setup".

Any guitar that needs parts refinished or replaced is being repaired. If the cost to address the fret problems is added to a typical setup charge, then +/- $200 is not at all unreasonable. That same charge for work that involves adjusting and tweaking existing components would be excessive, in my view.

Well, no...actually it started because the tech said a "perfect" setup could not be done without repair...the OP thought the guitar was pretty good after an "imperfect" setup...and questioned whether other people have "overhauls" done to permit a "perfect" setup..."perfect" being in the opinion of the luthier performing the setup and offering to perform an "overhaul."

[bborzell]

Originally Posted by cjm

Well, no...actually it started because the tech said a "perfect" setup could not be done without repair...the OP thought the guitar was pretty good after an "imperfect" setup...and questioned whether other people have "overhauls" done to permit a "perfect" setup..."perfect" being in the opinion of the luthier performing the setup and offering to perform an "overhaul."

That kinda makes my point. A setup is a setup. Repair is repair. Adding repair to a setup is not creating a new class of work to be called "perfect setup". It's simply pointing that the guitar needs to be repaired in order to be setup.

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by bborzell

This thread started out questioning the notion (and cost of) a perfect setup. Where it got a bit off track, in my view, was the acceptance of the premise that repairs of components should reasonably be included in the commonly understood concept of "setup".

Any guitar that needs parts refinished or replaced is being repaired. If the cost to address the fret problems is added to a typical setup charge, then +/- $200 is not at all unreasonable. That same charge for work that involves adjusting and tweaking existing components would be excessive, in my view.

I guess I didn't see anywhere in the thread where anyone expected repairs to be included in the typical cost of a set up as performend by a competent and respected luthier. Typical set ups usually run somewhere between $50 and $100, depending upon where you are and the tech you use. None of can accurately know what this tech Audric saw as needing his attention, so none of us can say for certain that the tech is running the tab up on the OP just to make more money. If fact, I was surprised to see the OP post that concern/statement.

I believe that it is the responsibility of any tech worth his salt to point out any issues or areas of concern that he might find on the guitar, prior to doing any work at all. I'm a little concerned that this highly regarded tech would even do the set up with loose and/or uneven frets.

I guess I'm of the opinion that there is correct . . . and there is incorrect. Loose and/or un level irregular frets is incorrect and needs to be corrected. Now, with that being said . . there is also acceptable and unacceptable . . and those conditions will vary from player to player. To some, the current condition of the guitar in question would be acceptable. To me. . . . not.