Flatwounds too stiff?

Nikkorico_03 · #1 10-23-2011, 07:27 PM

I didn't really know what to title this, but whatever.

I just bought a nice Peerless Jazz City Archtop, and it's got D'addario Flatwound 12s on it. I'm used to playing roundwound 10s, and my fingers get tired much faster, I can't play them as effortlessly as I can with my roundwounds.

Any suggestions? Any exercises to get my fingers in better shape for the strings? I know I just need to practice with it to get used to it. I'm probably going to get some flatwound 11s.

Thanks
Nikkos

Steve Z · #2 10-23-2011, 07:33 PM

Try flat wound 11s. A little closer to the strings you are used to and still have a nice warm tone.

Nikkorico_03 · #3 10-23-2011, 07:35 PM

Any brand you suggest? I'm thinking of buying Thomastik 11's because Thomastik's (from what I heard) are a bit easier and less stiff than other brands of the same gauge.

Gramps · #4 10-23-2011, 08:36 PM

You might want to look at your string hight to see if it can come down a bit too. I find action bothers my hands more than string guage.

Nikkorico_03 · #5 10-23-2011, 08:53 PM

My action is low, and it's what I have it at for the rest of my guitars. I'm not sure if it would go any lower without fret buzz, but thanks for the suggestion!

kawa · #6 10-23-2011, 09:54 PM

Please use the 11's, nowdays meny players using for own expressions.

Also Kenny Burrell using the 11's for his currently sence.

The music seen needs secitive sounds often.

The 11's are allround gages.

oldane · #7 10-24-2011, 03:30 AM

11 flatwounds should sound nice. Getting used to thicker strings is a matter of - well, getting used to it. The same goes for a higher action. When I started playing acoustic rhythm guitar, to get sufficient volume without buzzes, I had to raise the action to about 4-5mm at the 12th fret and and use medium bronze strings 13-57. It took a couple of weeks before I had developed callouses thick enough to avoid finger tip pain, but it's no problem now, though I have to practice daily to keep up the callouses and finger strength.

If you want to see how high an action it's possible to get used to, check this clip out:

????????? - Travlin Light-Diane Schuur&Freddie Green - Muziek ??

The guitarist in the clip - Freddie Green - was often asked by other guitarists about that monstrous action and he used to answer that "it took a while getting used to it". I see no reason to doubt that.

jorgemg1984 · #8 10-24-2011, 03:37 AM

You can also try a 11 set of rounds maybe its not only a heavier gauge but you might also prefer rounds feeling on the fingers.

mangotango · #9 10-24-2011, 03:40 AM

Thomastiks are the answer. The string tension seems less and they play a lot easier. I went straight to TI Swing 12's and never noticed any hardship, after playing D'Addario 10's on my solidbody guitars for ages.

Easy to play and a beautiful, full, warm sound. What's not to like??

benjazzman82 · #10 10-24-2011, 05:08 AM

HI there. I also use a Jazz City and use 12' on it. Just keep on it for the moment is my advice. Try to wait as long as possible before switching to 11's. It will make your playing alot more accurate and stronger. Saying that i have just purchased an Ibanez AK105sm with 14's on. I am going to wait till i NEED to restring and then use 13's maybe. I will find that alot easier.
I think a heavier string makes for a much better tone on an archtop but make sure your are comfortable. Best of luck.

jorgemg1984 · #11 10-24-2011, 05:10 AM

Yes, I am using 013-56 and loving it - and will change for 015 and 019 and the first two strings. If you don't need to bend and your fingers can get used to it heavier strings are the best!

Funster · #12 10-24-2011, 07:43 AM

I use Thomastick BB113 medium light jazz BeBop guitar strings on my Ibanez Artcore. It starts with a .013 and the third is a .021 plain. It's the heaviest I've used but they feel right for Jazz. They are roundwound but quite smooth to the touch. I can bend any string a half step and that's good enough for me. Flatwounds sound too dead for me but to each his own.

jmstritt · #13 10-24-2011, 08:35 AM

I was also going to suggest trying the BeBop strings from TI. They are roundwound but very smooth. Definitely a "Jazz" string.

cjm · #14 10-24-2011, 08:59 AM

There is only one string in a "heavy" gauge set (really .014~.058 is only "medium, but...) that is any heavier than the strings in a light gauge set.

Can you handle the "B" string in a light gauge set? Then you can handle the high "E" string in a heavier set because it is the same gauge.

Can you handle the low "E" on a light gauge set? Well then, you should have no trouble with the "A" string on a heavier set, because it is the same gauge.

And the tension is lower, because it's tuned down to the 5th of the tone it would have been tuned in a light gauge set.

Because of rock/blues and having become accustomed to the feel of light gauge string sets, aspiring jazz guitarists often defeat themselves in their own minds when confronted with strings better suited to a jazz sound...before every really giving the heavier string sets a proper trial.

If you get absolutely no exercise, walking a couple of miles can seem like hell. But human beings are "designed" to walk long distances...the answer is to get some exercise -- not to just call a cab.

It's no different when making a move from rock and rock guitar setups to jazz.

cjm · #15 10-24-2011, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjm

And the tension is lower, because it's tuned down to the 5th of the tone it would have been tuned in a light gauge set.

Obviously I didn't have enough coffee before writing that, because it is opposite of the truth, but the rest of the post was spot on, if I say so myself.

Nikkorico_03 · #16 10-24-2011, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjazzman82

HI there. I also use a Jazz City and use 12' on it. Just keep on it for the moment is my advice. Try to wait as long as possible before switching to 11's. It will make your playing alot more accurate and stronger. Saying that i have just purchased an Ibanez AK105sm with 14's on. I am going to wait till i NEED to restring and then use 13's maybe. I will find that alot easier.
I think a heavier string makes for a much better tone on an archtop but make sure your are comfortable. Best of luck.

Yeah that's exactly what I'm going to do. Like the guy above said, I need to exercise, not take a cab! Haha, lazy humans these days...

But yeah, the 12's are pretty new, so I'll wait for a while, probably 6 months or so, until the roundwounds are done.

What's the typical lifespan of rounds anyways? I've read that the set usually lasts a good amount of time, but sometimes one has to replace the high E or B strings? True?

Thanks for the input.

oldane · #17 10-24-2011, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjm

And the tension is lower, because it's tuned down to the 5th of the tone it would have been tuned in a light gauge set.

CJM, I may have misunderstood you. But the B string of the light set becomes the high E string of the heavier set - and the string is tuned UP to a HIGHER tension in the heavier set (a quart higher, E instead of B).

Don't believe it? Check the figures on the package / the manufacturers web site for string tension at pitch for light gauge vs. medium gauge strings.

[EDIT: I see that you corrected it yourself while I wrote my post.]

That said, with heavier strings the action can often be set lower without buzzing than with lighter strings, and this lower action makes them easier to fret - but likely not easier than the lighter set with a little higher action.

The amount of relief also plays a roll in the percieved stiffness of action. A perfectly straight fretboard with a not so low action wil give a feeling of increasing fretting stiffness up the neck, whereas a moderate relief will equalize the feel of the fretting resistance. On a fretboard with too much relief, the fretting resistance wil seem the greatest at the lower frets. Generally, a higher action for vigorious playing calls for more relief than a lower action and more delicate picking, though personal preferencies vary greatly here (as everywhere else).

stevedenver · #18 10-25-2011, 03:05 PM

thomastiks will feel softer

like anything where you increase physical effort,
you will adjust and your fingers will strengthen-

give it a month and youll feel like the tens are too slinky

elnasty1 · #19 10-25-2011, 03:24 PM

Hi Have been a keyboard for 70 yrs (yes 70) but have jhust t. aken up the guitar this year and tried blues guitar but I find the jazz is more akin to my liking as I just prefer the old standards up to about the 60's. I am looking forward to this new experience. (that is if the doctors can keep me going
Ha Ha Ha

Ranglin01 · #20 10-27-2011, 08:22 AM

Little question on the strings tension for the specialists. I plan to change the current string set "round wound d'addario EXL110 (10-46)" into flat wound strings. It could apparently change my tone in an interesting way !!

The guitar is currently perfectly setup and I would like to avoid touching truss rod if possible. The current total tension with EXL 110 is 103 LBS (source :Strings, Instrument Strings, Music Strings for Guitar, Bass, Mandolin, Fiddle and More. It would be 117 with d'addario Chromes ECG23 (10-48) and 123 with Thomastik JS111 (12-50).

Do you think it could work without having to call my luthier ?? thanks in advance for your input

oldane · #21 10-27-2011, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranglin01

Little question on the strings tension for the specialists. I plan to change the current string set "round wound d'addario EXL110 (10-46)" into flat wound strings. It could apparently change my tone in an interesting way !!

The guitar is currently perfectly setup and I would like to avoid touching truss rod if possible. The current total tension with EXL 110 is 103 LBS (source :Strings, Instrument Strings, Music Strings for Guitar, Bass, Mandolin, Fiddle and More. It would be 117 with d'addario Chromes ECG23 (10-48) and 123 with Thomastik JS111 (12-50).

Do you think it could work without having to call my luthier ?? thanks in advance for your input

I don't think truss rod adjustments would be necessary. In fact the difference between 117 and 123 may well be within simple sample variation. The Thomastik strings you mention are thicker than the D'Addarios, but Thomastik strings are known to have a lower tension with the same thickness.

Apart from that, trus rod adjustments are not difficult, and IMHO the need for a truss rod adjustment shouldn't keep anyone from using the strings that work best for them. Just remember to go slow. Release the tension of the strings somewhat, release or tighten the truss rod nut as needed but not more than 1/8 turn a time. Then tune up to pitch again to check the result. If it is not enough, repeat the process. Usually a step up or down in string gauge calls for 1/8 to 1/4 turn. Also remember to leave at least a slight amount of relief, or the string between the fretted note and the nut will buzz sympathetically against the frets, which is annoying. How much neck relief is desirable is a matter of personal taste and also depends on the action (the higher the action, the more the relief - as a general rule of thumb, but as said, it's depending on personal taste).

woyvel · #22 10-29-2011, 04:55 PM

I just responded to another thread about flats on teles being stiffer than rounds. I played someone's tele with .010 rounds last weekend and described it as more "slinky" as compared my stiffer .010 round set.

Ranglin01 · #23 11-03-2011, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldane

I don't think truss rod adjustments would be necessary. In fact the difference between 117 and 123 may well be within simple sample variation. The Thomastik strings you mention are thicker than the D'Addarios, but Thomastik strings are known to have a lower tension with the same thickness.

Apart from that, trus rod adjustments are not difficult, and IMHO the need for a truss rod adjustment shouldn't keep anyone from using the strings that work best for them. Just remember to go slow. Release the tension of the strings somewhat, release or tighten the truss rod nut as needed but not more than 1/8 turn a time. Then tune up to pitch again to check the result. If it is not enough, repeat the process. Usually a step up or down in string gauge calls for 1/8 to 1/4 turn. Also remember to leave at least a slight amount of relief, or the string between the fretted note and the nut will buzz sympathetically against the frets, which is annoying. How much neck relief is desirable is a matter of personal taste and also depends on the action (the higher the action, the more the relief - as a general rule of thumb, but as said, it's depending on personal taste).

Hey Oldane, many thanks for your comments. I received both flatwound strings sets today. During lunchtime, I quickly tried the Thomastik JS111.

You were right, no truss rod adjustment needed. I could play only for a few minutes. First impressions :

1) a little less comfort to play but nothing too bad, will get used to it very quickly
2) soundwise, a difference that REALLY pleased my ears

I made a quick little recording to compare the sound objectively. I will try to put them online if anyone is interested. Look forward to playing this evening !!

UPDATE 07.11.2011 - I was wrong, the neck needed a little adjustment to cope with the higher tension. I did as described with a quarter turn on the truss rod (clockwise). Now the neck is perfect !!! Very comfortalble. I think I am sold to flatwound strings !!! Will try in a few months the d'addario chromes. Hope they sound as the thomastik.

mr. beaumont · #24 11-03-2011, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevedenver

thomastiks will feel softer

like anything where you increase physical effort,
you will adjust and your fingers will strengthen-

give it a month and youll feel like the tens are too slinky

This exactly.

Truthfully, I want a guitar that's got a firm setup...I don't want those strings going all over the place when I try to play chords with four fret stretches in 'em...