Flatwounds on 335 style guitars..your opinions

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

There's no such thing as a jazz worthy guitar but there is definitely an established tone in the jazz idiom (for better or for worse). Way more players on the scene play semi or fully hollow guitars than play solid body guitars.

I'm not saying that is good or bad or right or wrong but it is what it is. I always see the same few names come up when stating that jazz can be played on a solid body guitar but they seem to be the minority, at least amongst professional jazz players.

To the OP of this question, find out what types of guitar your favorite players are using and go from there!

I strongly believe that the setup of the guitar (string gauge, action) means more than the kind of guitar (solid body, hollow). My solid body partscaster with 13-56 flatwounds sound more "jazzy" than my 175 with 09 slinky roundwounds (believe me, I did try it many years ago). And what means most is the way you play it.

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by oldane

I strongly believe that the setup of the guitar (string gauge, action) means more than the kind of guitar (solid body, hollow). My solid body partscaster with 13-56 flatwounds sound more "jazzy" than my 175 with 09 slinky roundwounds (believe me, I did try it many years ago). And what means most is the way you play it.

That's like saying "My tricycle with beefed up tires is better for mountain biking than my mountain bike that has tires made out of cotton candy" lol.

For the record, I did not say that jazz cannot be played on a tele or any other solid body guitar, I simply stated that the same handful of players are held up as the icons of solidbody jazz guitar while meanwhile the majority of top players seem to be using semi or hollowbody guitars and archtops.

Simply an observation of fact. Nothing more, nothing less.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

That's like saying "My tricycle with beefed up tires is better for mountain biking than my mountain bike that has tires made out of cotton candy" lol.

Trying to set up my old Selmer clarinet with bronze roundwounds would fit that analogy nicely, but I was not quite there.....

But to be serious, yes, I agree that jazz players traditionally tend to prefer jazzboxes more than anything else - especiallially old anacronistic farts like myself. However, I do think I see a gradual move towards solidbodies or semisolids with the younger players, especially those who are into a more recent style. One of the younger jazz guitarists here in Denmark, who plays a lot in USA too, found that he could soundwise bend a Tele to his will easily, so that's what he use now, mainly because it's easier to transport and withstands the rigeurs of his frequent air travelling much better than an archtop.

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by oldane

Trying to set up my old Selmer clarinet with bronze roundwounds would fit that analogy nicely, but I was not quite there.....

But to be serious, yes, I agree that jazz players traditionally tend to prefer jazzboxes more than anything else - especiallially old anacronistic farts like myself. However, I do think I see a gradual move towards solidbodies or semisolids with the younger players, especially those who are into a more recent style. One of the younger jazz guitarists here in Denmark, who plays a lot in USA too, found that he could soundwise bend a Tele to his will easily, so that's what he use now, mainly because it's easier to transport and withstands the rigeurs of his frequent air travelling much better than an archtop.

Do you have a link to his music? I always like to hear new players!

All this Tele talk is making me want one lol. They are great sounding guitars.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

Do you have a link to his music? I always like to hear new players!

All this Tele talk is making me want one lol. They are great sounding guitars.

It's Jakob Bro. Here's a link to his web site, where some music of his is playing:

JAKOB BRO

As you can see, he is in really good company on some of the records (Konitz, Fresell, Motian etc.).

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by oldane

It's Jakob Bro. Here's a link to his web site, where some music of his is playing:

JAKOB BRO

As you can see, he is in really good company on some of the records (Konitz, Fresell, Motian etc.).

Thanks, I'll check him out!

[bborzell]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

John Abercrombie Dave Holland Jack DeJohnette - Homecoming - YouTube

You can play great jazz on a solid body!

Yes, and the fact that Abercrombie is playing with thumb only most likely helps mellow the tone of the solid body.

Still, it is a very good sound.

[jorgemg1984]

Yes, the thumb does help. But you can do it with a pick

Pat Metheny & Ulf Wakenius - Angel Eyes - Best of Guitar-Tube.com - YouTube

(personally not a big fan of Wakenius but I think he has a good jazz tone)

[oldane]

Originally Posted by bborzell

Yes, and the fact that Abercrombie is playing with thumb only most likely helps mellow the tone of the solid body.

Solid body gutars doesn't have an "inborn" brighter or more harsh tone than an archtop. We may just think so, because solid bodies are used for rock where bright and sharp tones are prevailing. But that is a deliberate tone setting, not a property of the guitar type. The main reason for using a solid body - in rock or in jazz - is to control feedback better and to have a more rugged and roadworthy instrument.

Thus the tone of a solid body doesn't have to be mellowed as compared to an archtop. What the archtop has and the solid body has not is the "acoustic reflection" of the hollow box in the sound. Depending on personal tone preferencies, the solid body can be said to sound either more "sterile" or more "clean".

Some of the brightest and harshest sounding amplified guitars I have heard have been carved top archtops with mini humbucker floating pickups - including my own older Bendetto Fratello, which I rarely use amplified. If anything, my Strat and my solid body partscaster has - provided the same setup - a much more mellow sound than the Benedetto.

[kris]

Arch-top jazz box and solid-body-completly different instruments.
Solid- body/ i.e. Tele/ ...you can set up tele in "pseudo" dark jazz sound/ Ed Bickert/...and I like that sound very much.
Arch-top guitar has fat electro-acoustic sound and with this kind of guitar you have more control on dynamics.A lot of guitarists like low action of strings on arch-tops but I think this kill acoustic sound of instrument.

[NSJ]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

You don't need rounds to play rock as you don't need flats to play jazz. You can have rounds or flats in any type of guitar so its really a matter of taste. From my experience flats sound too dead and the only good thing is no finger squeak.

+1. Play what you want, use what you want, with the caveats--alive with a dynamic pulse is better than dead as a doorknob sounding. . And 9-42s will never get it done.

Can't beat TI round wound Bebop strings.

[jorgemg1984]

Yeah, trial and error is the way to go with strings. I have settled on John Pearse Jazz Rounds 13-56 on my archtop and La Bella Jazz Rounds 13-56 on my 335 (after a lot of experiments)

I also have two acoustics where I am going to try John Pearse Nickel Acoustic and La Bella Golden Alloy soon.

I tried Thomastik flats and didn't bound with them. Never tried the rounds but I feel Thomastik strings are a little overpriced...

[bborzell]

Originally Posted by oldane

Solid body gutars doesn't have an "inborn" brighter or more harsh tone than an archtop. We may just think so, because solid bodies are used for rock where bright and sharp tones are prevailing. But that is a deliberate tone setting, not a property of the guitar type. The main reason for using a solid body - in rock or in jazz - is to control feedback better and to have a more rugged and roadworthy instrument.

Thus the tone of a solid body doesn't have to be mellowed as compared to an archtop. What the archtop has and the solid body has not is the "acoustic reflection" of the hollow box in the sound. Depending on personal tone preferencies, the solid body can be said to sound either more "sterile" or more "clean".

Some of the brightest and harshest sounding amplified guitars I have heard have been carved top archtops with mini humbucker floating pickups - including my own older Bendetto Fratello, which I rarely use amplified. If anything, my Strat and my solid body partscaster has - provided the same setup - a much more mellow sound than the Benedetto.

Ummm...

Changing terminology from "tone" to "acoustic reflection" is an interesting manner of attempting to support the proposition that we have been fooled into thinking that a slab of wood with strings stretched from one end to the other has no more harsh or bright inherent tone than a hollow body guitar.

None of my solid body guitars recreate the warm or dark tone of any of my hollow bodies. They can be set to sound warmer and darker, but that is a path along a continuum that the hollow bodies alway sound to be a step ahead.

Or maybe it's all in our heads and we have been wasting money on expensive and hard to build hollow bodies when cheaper slabs of wood are all that is necessary to produce a decent jazz tone.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by bborzell

Changing terminology from "tone" to "acoustic reflection" is an interesting manner of attempting to support the proposition that we have been fooled into thinking that a slab of wood with strings stretched from one end to the other has no more harsh or bright inherent tone than a hollow body guitar.

My home spun term "acoustic reflection" didn't refer to darkness or brightness, but to the fact that the sound of a hollowbody is more "acoustic" or "woody". I said that the solid body lacks that "woody" part of the tone which the archtop has. That may or my not be desirable depending on personal taste and the circumstances.

Or maybe it's all in our heads and we have been wasting money on expensive and hard to build hollow bodies when cheaper slabs of wood are all that is necessary to produce a decent jazz tone.

I didn't rank the quality of tone of the archtop vs. the solid body. I just said, that a solid body doesn't - everything else equal, strings and PUs included - as a rule sound brighter than an archtop.

But yes, I firmly believe that "cheaper slabs of wood" can provide a more than decent "jazz tone". I say that with tongue in cheek, because there doesn't exist any clear definition of "jazz tone". A jazz tone can be everything from Jim Halls very dark tone to Tiny Grimes' bright and piercing tone to Scofields effect ladden tone. Some very competent jazz players actually prefer the sound of a solid body to that of a hollow body. You mentioned Ed Bickert yourself. With some players you wouldn't be able to tell whether they were playing a solidbody or an archtop.

To my ears, I get a much better amplified "jazz tone" from my $800 partscaster than from my Benedetto Fratello (which cost me $9000 in 1996). But of course as an acoustic guitar, the partscaster is very poor while the Bendetto is great.

Some months ago somebody posted a blindfold test here. Many of us were fooled and mistook the solidbody (a Strat as far as I remember) for the archtop and vice versa.

[whiskey02]

You need to be aware that flats will put higher tension on the neck compared to a round set of the same gauge. That is, D'Adarrio .13 flats will put more lbs of of tension that D'Adarrio .13 rounds. Not a huge deal, but it might require a tweak of the truss rod.

[zigzag]

I use D'Addario 11s with a wound 3rd on my 335, and have never put flatwounds on it. I did try D'Addario flatwound 10s on my new Carvin SH550 and did not notice a whole lot of difference over Elixer 10s. I actually switched to nickel coated D'Addario 10s (EXPs) on the 550, which I like a lot more than Elixers, but they are not a "jazz string" either, and they are brighter.

[Greco]

Just to let everyone know that I am still following this....including all of the derails/diversions......LOL

Cheers

Dave

[Hjalmiz]

Flats on a 335 absolutly works.
I used it on my 335 , the thing for me was that i want a high string tension so i used 13 chromes. The other thing was that i needed to have a kind of high action on it that made it kind of like wrestling with a bear to play at first before u got used to it. But it sounded greate.
Miss that guitar , check the clip below for a -69 335 with 13 chromes through a vox ac 15.
H Y M M J - YouTube

[kris]

Originally Posted by Hjalmiz

Flats on a 335 absolutly works.
I used it on my 335 , the thing for me was that i want a high string tension so i used 13 chromes. The other thing was that i needed to have a kind of high action on it that made it kind of like wrestling with a bear to play at first before u got used to it. But i sounded greate.
Miss that guitar , check the clip below for a -69 335 with 13 chromes through a vox ac 15.
H Y M M J - YouTube

Nice sounding guitar.Chromes 13 and high action make great jazz sound.

[Peter C]

Originally Posted by Hjalmiz

Flats on a 335 absolutly works.
I used it on my 335 , the thing for me was that i want a high string tension so i used 13 chromes. The other thing was that i needed to have a kind of high action on it that made it kind of like wrestling with a bear to play at first before u got used to it. But it sounded greate.
Miss that guitar , check the clip below for a -69 335 with 13 chromes through a vox ac 15.
H Y M M J - YouTube

Nice tone!