An amp simulator?

[Nearhigh]

Hi,

Can you recommend me an affordable hardware amp simulator for home recording use? I want something solidly built with a passable palette of clean tones.

The one I've been using is an old Behringer ripoff of the Sansamp GT-2. It's cheap and noisy and 95% of its usable palette is that of a distortion pedal. The "tweed" (clean) model is unpleasantly lifeless, and getting a clean tone out of the other two models requires clean mode, zero drive and rolling the guitar volume knob way down. It's clear that I don't have the right tool for the job, and it's the weakest link in my recording chain anyway.

[papaj77]

I use BOSS ME 25 and i like it, you just connect USB cable to computer.

[fep]

This is what I use, I think it's the bomb:

DigiTech GNX3000 Guitar Workstation | eBay

Here's a sample of a recording I did of how she sounds straight into recording software:

Eastman test.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

Of course she does much more than that, there's a huge choice of sounds that you customize yourself to get them just like you like.

[spiral]

Define "affordable" with a dollar amount.

Most modellers do crunch and distortion OK but fail when it comes to emulating the air of a cabinet with a clean tone. The best "affordable" (to me) modeller i've heard is the Line6 Pod HD.

Check out Jim Soloway's excellent examples here (there are from various Gear Page threads):
http://www.jimsoloway.com/MiscDemoCl...BubingaUSB.mp3
http://www.jimsoloway.com/CompletedG...2/LoonK2-1.mp3
http://www.jimsoloway.com/CompletedG...lue/K328-1.mp3
http://www.jimsoloway.com/CompletedG...n15/K327-1.mp3
http://www.jimsoloway.com/MiscDemoClips/K324Brazil.mp3


The last clip sounds sounds right on to me.

[harm.on.x]

I recently got a Zoom G3. Financed by the producer of one of the projects I work
So far, I've been very impressed. The best straight ahead, ultra portable unit around at this point in my opinion.
Enough routing flexibility, and VERY nice delays and amp sims.
Some people prefer it from the Line6 HD. I have no personal experience with the latter.
I found that mixing and matching amp models with other cabinets than the stock combinations gave me the best results for the sound I'm after. YMMV.
XLR out, Left and Right 1/4" outs, USB, runs on batteries (just in case you have to do it this way). If you have experience with recording software or other interfaces it should be quite straight forward to program some good sounds.

[Nearhigh]

Thanks for the replies!

"Affordable" would be sub-$400. Those HD samples do sound good. Is there anything that's only an amp simulator and not one with 1024 effects, 128 user programs, 48kHz USB audio interface and an LCD?

[edspyhill01]

I find it interesting that there are almost never any jazz guitar examples on YouTube for any guitar effects boxes. Whatever is on YouTube is rock/blues shredding.

[Nearhigh]

That's just why I came here. It's an exercise in futility finding this type of thing on Youtube and I figure a jazz guitar forum will know the appropriate gizmos.

[Gramps]

Harm.on.x,

I'm planning on ordering the G3 this week but like someone else mentioned, it is hard to find a clean sample of the sound on youtube. Have you found any noise issues with your unit? Can you get a nice warm, clean tone? All the clean tones on youtube are pretty thin and steril. Are any of the drum tracks usable for you? (Drum tracks is least important to me but one can hope for something usable)

My budget only permits me to buy a used Pod or new G3 and if the G3 can give me a couple nice clean tones I'll be happy. Besides the 40 second looper would be nice for practicing.

FEP gets a great tone from the Digitech but I'd like to purchase a product that is new and under warrenty.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by harm.on.x

Some people prefer it from the Line6 HD. I have no personal experience with the latter.

Do you know who said they preferred it? I owned the Zoom G3 and have heard demos of the Pod HD and the Pod sounds worlds better. The Zoom G3 is indeed a powerful tool but clean amp simulation is not its strength. To me it just sounded like a guitar direct with effects laid over the top. I wouldn't recommend it just for a modeller.

Originally Posted by Gramps

My budget only permits me to buy a used Pod or new G3 and if the G3 can give me a couple nice clean tones I'll be happy. Besides the 40 second looper would be nice for practicing.

The G3 excels more at multi-effects than it does amp simulation. The drums sound fine but are very limited for jazz. There are 2 or 3 "jazz" type rhythms but you can't run them through the effects on the G3. Also how the looper works in tandem with the drum tracks is very disconnected. I sold it because the amp sounds were not good and the workflow between the looper and drum tracks was cumbersome.

edit: here is a sample of the G3 w/ a Fender Amp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx-fLgtKYdI&t=36s
Doesn't sound like an amp to me, it has the thin squawk of a direct guitar.

[Gramps]

The clean amp samples on youtube all sound thin to me but they also all sound like they're played on a bridge PU and picking back near the bridge. If this is just the rock version of clean one might get something different by tweeking the eq and using the neck PU like most jazzers do.

The jury is still out for me. As of now I'll still order one on Friday and if it doesn't work for me I'll return it and eat the cost of shipping it back.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Gramps

If this is just the rock version of clean one might get something different by tweeking the eq and using the neck PU like most jazzers do.

I spent lots of time tweaking EQ and the tube compression / distortion settings but it was either thin or muddy. When i had mine I was using the neck Magnatron pickup on my guitar which sound gutsy through my amp.

[Al_F]

How a Fender Mustang I ? It will plug into your computer for recording, has great clean tones, $99, and the I doesn't have the fizz probelm

[Jim Soloway]

Originally Posted by edspyhill01

I find it interesting that there are almost never any jazz guitar examples on YouTube for any guitar effects boxes. Whatever is on YouTube is rock/blues shredding.

I've posted several videos on YouTube using a variety of Pod HD's (300, 500 and bean).

This was done with a desktop unit (the HD Bean) which is within the original poster's budget

YouTube Video

[Gramps]

Jim,
Yours and FEPs tone through modelers is what got me thinking of going in this direction. I just stalked you around different forums and in one you mentioned that someone loaned you a G3 and you decided that you're happy with your tone through a pod hd.

Could you get any nice clean tones with warmth (subjective, I know) from the G3?

[Jim Soloway]

Originally Posted by Gramps

Jim,
Yours and FEPs tone through modelers is what got me thinking of going in this direction. I just stalked you around different forums and in one you mentioned that someone loaned you a G3 and you decided that you're happy with your tone through a pod hd.

Could you get any nice clean tones with warmth (subjective, I know) from the G3?

Hi Gramps. I'm always happy to talk guitars and you'd be welcome to call or write any time. (That has to be easier than stalking

I didn't care for the G3. I found it confusing and the clean tones were definitely a big drop down from what I get from by Pod HD.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

I've posted several videos on YouTube using a variety of Pod HD's (300, 500 and bean).

Hey Jim. I posted your MP3's done with the HD earlier in the thread too.

[Jim Soloway]

Originally Posted by spiral

Hey Jim. I posted your MP3's done with the HD earlier in the thread too.

Cool. Thanks. I feel a little bit like an evangelist for this technology but I have to tell you that after decades of hunting for just the right amp and never quite getting there, I've never been as happy as I am with the Pod HD and my MBT 8ma powered cab. This rig just works for me, both for recording and live sound. The tone is right, the weight is right and I can get what I think of as "my sound" without compromise at an absurdly low volume level.

[papaj77]

Hi, Jim
Do you think that keyboard amp would work instead of powered cabinet?

[Jim Soloway]

Originally Posted by papaj77

Hi, Jim
Do you think that keyboard amp would work instead of powered cabinet?

It will work, but not as well. Ideally you want something full range with a flat response but I even plugged my Pod into a ZT Lunch and it sounded pretty good. Certainly a lot better than the Lunchbox on its own.

[papaj77]

thanks

[ESCC]

+1 on Line 6 POD.

I use the UX1 with PODFarm amp simulation software w/usb into my computer. Has some nice jazz tones, archtop settings, etc.

[harm.on.x]

Originally Posted by Gramps

Harm.on.x,
Have you found any noise issues with your unit?

No more noise than what I got from Pods and software simulations. If anything, it's less noisy than them and it's definitely quieter than my amp.

Originally Posted by Gramps

Can you get a nice warm, clean tone? All the clean tones on youtube are pretty thin and steril.

I managed to come very close to my amp's sound (clean, fat, tubes, hand made, etc etc etc) using my Tele's single coil neck pickup with the added bonus of getting a SLIGHT breakup at low volume if I wanted to. For LOWER volume playing I actually prefer the G3 to my amp because it gives me a more "elastic" feel at those levels.

Originally Posted by Gramps

Are any of the drum tracks usable for you? (Drum tracks is least important to me but one can hope for something usable)

They are very usable for teaching. My students prefer to play on top of something that resembles a drum track than a metronome. Can be inspiring for practicing some times too.

Originally Posted by Gramps

My budget only permits me to buy a used Pod or new G3 and if the G3 can give me a couple nice clean tones I'll be happy.

My only extended experience with Pods was with the XT (the "bean" version, not the floor unit). I find the G3 better in more ways than I can count. Mind you that most of the time all I care for in a signal chain is an amp sim and a tape echo sim. If I want to add more effects simultaneously, the G3 is not enough on its own. I have to employ some extra stompboxes.

Originally Posted by spiral

Do you know who said they preferred it?

Not in person but there was some discussion on another forum where people change gear more often than underware. The consensus was that BOTH units are a bit on the gainy side with clean tones being a toss up between the two.
I don't frequent forums though, so maybe you are better informed than I am.

Originally Posted by spiral

The Zoom G3 is indeed a powerful tool but clean amp simulation is not its strength.

That's exactly what I read about the Pod too. The exact same comment on both units. I wonder what kind of pickups people use. I get the feeling some guys must play some very hot pickups. That, or companies are focusing on kids who play death metal as their target group and all modelers have way too much gain on tap.
As I wrote above, with my Telecaster's single coil pickup I get what I consider a nice tone. I can go as clean or as hairy as I wish. I do NOT use one of the stock amp/speaker cabinet combinations though. I came up with my own combination.
Unfortunately, I only tried it with humbuckers only for a few minutes so I can't make any solid comments on how it works with them for a clean sound.

Originally Posted by spiral

The drums sound fine but are very limited for jazz.

I agree 100% on this one. It doesn't bother me though because I see them as just icing on the cake and not an essential part of what I'm looking for in a preamp. Other things matter more to me. This brings us to the last paragraph of the longest post I've ever written.

If I want to summarize I would say that the G3 is one of the best gear purchases. It's compact, sounds good and has very cool routing capabilities for such a small unit. You can run a wet signal through the 1/4 inch outputs and choose whether you want wet or dry through the XLR. This is a great facility for recording. You can turn the cabinet simulations on or COMPLETELY off and choose between different kinds of global output modes to match PA or guitar amp setups. My impression is that the HD "Bean" and HD300 pale in comparison in that respect. I might be wrong...but I doubt it.
The G3 allows to considerably boost or cut the USB signal level while leaving unaffected the 1/4" and XLR output signals. It also allows you to mix the levels of USB and analog outputs levels in your monitors. For studio applications these functions are priceless.
It's smaller than the POD HD "Bean" while allowing the functionality/convenience, albeit limited, of a floor unit. It's also half the price while being superior at least in some ways.
The effects I care for (tape echo and tremolo) work and sound way better than the Pod XT I had on loan and used for some time.
The amp modeling.....we'll never gonna all agree on that. A lot of how it sounds has to do with what monitors one plays through. FWIW, I only tweak and play modelers through studio monitors and PA speakers. ONLY.
No headphones and definitely no guitar amps, tube or solid state. I also don't care about spending my time trying out every single unit out there so I will never get to the point where I can say I tried them all and this is the best. It would take so much time which I rather put into writing/playing music.
Also, one man's clean is another man's sterile and one man's smooth break up is another man's hi gain.
I personally prefer a small amount of break up in my tone. I feel it gives it a bit of a vocal quality. Especially if I set my voice as a standard.... :-)
All my opinions are based on using the unit daily for the last month. Using exclusively a U.S. Tele with single coils because this is what I play with my current gig. I'm looking forward to plug my humbucker equipped guitar in it soon.
I hope I was helpful to the original poster to make a decision.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by harm.on.x

Not in person but there was some discussion on another forum where people change gear more often than underware. The consensus was that BOTH units are a bit on the gainy side with clean tones being a toss up between the two. I don't frequent forums though, so maybe you are better informed than I am.

I'm talking about the Pod HD which is significantly better than both the G3 and the original Pods. Between the original Pods and the G3 it is a tossup—grainy is a good way to say it. The Pod HD actually sounds like a mic'd amp through headphones. The G3 sounds like an EQ'd guitar with effects through headphones. I think Jim's demos show that pretty clearly. I'm only talking about the amp simulation quality. Unfortunately i don't own either anymore, otherwise i would post comparisons.

Is the forum you are talking about the Gear Page?

As a practice tool the G3 is fine but if someone is looking for an amp modeller primarily, the Pod HD is the best thing i've heard in $300 range (Amplitube, Eleven Rack, and Axe FX don't count of course).

[harm.on.x]

Yeah, I think it was the Gear Page and maybe also Harmony Central. These are the only ones I know of anyway.
The comparison was between HD and G3, not the older Pods. To be even more specific, it was between the HD floor units and the G3. I was looking for some info and I stumbled across those posts. A couple of guys compared the HD500 and the G3 and concluded that the clean tones were more closer than different between the two units. If memory serves right one of them was a guy called Will. Another guy exhibited G3's higher gain sounds and they were absolutely fantastic.

With all the respect, the only way to compare the two units is to give them to the same player and have him/her running them through the same rig, at their optimal settings, playing pretty much the same stuff with both.
It's not a fair comparison the one between you playing your guitar in your style to Jim playing his guitar in his style. Even if your styles are extremely similar. Let alone comparing playing the guitar in your style through headphones to an mp3 recording of Jim playing his guitar in his style through a very fine PA monitor. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you are a fine player but the two setups are so different that any comparison is not fair.
I really wish you owned the units and be able to post some comparisons because I'm quite curious to hear the difference. Honestly. I would be very interested in an A/B test with audio samples, providing the two units are dialed in and recorded correctly.

The only thing that the G3 doesn't sound like to me is like "an EQ'd guitar with effects". Again my application is through PA and studio monitors. No amp sim sounds satisfactory enough through headphones to me. FWIW, as a point of reference, I have used various versions of Guitar Rig, Pod XT, Logic Pro 6 up until 9, Amplitube (only earlier versions) and others.
As I said in my previous post I haven't tried the HD. I got the G3, dialed in the sounds I wanted and that was it.

Maybe Jim can chime in about his experience with both units.
I think Jim's playing and tone and instruments really speak for themselves. It's not the way I play but I really admire his work. I also agree 100% with his feelings about this technology. It's priceless to walk into any gig with such a light setup, and even be able to take your entire rig as a carry on luggage on a plane.

My personal experience with modelers goes about 5-6 years back. Back then I tried them and didn't like them much. Now, I see no reason to cary a tube amp to my gigs, let alone a solid state one. In my previous more rock oriented life maybe I had to move more air with a 2x12'. The way things are now and the gigs I do, I'm happy to just hand an XLR cable to the soundman.

[hallpass]

A couple very affordable, small ones for the home are the Vox Mini 3, ROland Micro Cube, Fender Mustang I or the new Mustang Mini. I have a Vox Mini 3 that I enjoy. I use it alot with headphones and line stuff into it to play along with. I tend to gravitate to Fender blackface models and all these have a decent one (granted, I much prefer the real thing compared to any modeler I've played so far).

Way back I had a Pod 2.0 and then upgraded to the Pod XT. I wasn't wild about them. But I've never tried the new HD line.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by harm.on.x

Again my application is through PA and studio monitors. No amp sim sounds satisfactory enough through headphones to me.

LOL. Well there is the difference. It's not an amp sim anymore when you run it through a speaker. I am talking about through headphones—or a plugin on a DAW track, or running the modeler direct to your DAW through USB—that is exactly the original point of the topic. An amp modeler is simulating an amp cabinet and speaker in a room.

Let me say it this way: I know what my amp sounds like clean in a room and mic'd (Fender DR / PR clone) and i have used some modelers: G3, Line6 JM4, Boss BR-80, iPad GarageBand and various Logic sim plugins. The only things that have come close to sounding like an amp in a room is the Logic plugins (Amp Designer), the Pod HD, and Axe FX. Style / gear does affect sound but the emulation of a clean tube amp is very distinct and the G3 does not come close for me. I wish it had.

Another difference could be what we are each expecting from modeling. I like a clean Fender sound which is (apparently) really hard to emulate. Fender only recently were able to do it with their Mustang amps. Someone who uses a solid state amp might prefer the G3 as it doesn't have as much compression or saturation trickiness like a tube amp does.

[harm.on.x]

Originally Posted by spiral

LOL.

Well...., first of all, please keep your "LOL" comments to yourself!
Especially when you don't know what you are talking about.
Last time I checked this forum was about helping fellow guitarists and not bash each other or try to impose ill informed opinions.

Originally Posted by spiral

It's not an amp sim anymore when you run it through a speaker.

Really? And what is it then? A toaster?

Originally Posted by spiral

I am talking about through headphones—or a plugin on a DAW track, or running the modeler direct to your DAW through USB—that is exactly the original point of the topic. An amp modeler is simulating an amp cabinet and speaker in a room.

A modeler is simulating a miced amp in a room. NOT just an amp in a room. This is the idea behind modeling.
The application is and should be more than just playing through your headphones at home though. A good modeler should give you the best possible sound when recording direct and playing through a PA system. The headphone home noodling thing comes as an extra bonus.

Originally Posted by spiral

Let me say it this way: I know what my amp sounds like clean in a room and mic'd (Fender DR / PR clone) and i have used some modelers: G3, Line6 JM4, Boss BR-80, iPad GarageBand and various Logic sim plugins. The only things that have come close to sounding like an amp in a room is the Logic plugins (Amp Designer), the Pod HD, and Axe FX.

And let me say it this way: I've been a professional guitarist and composer for a good part of my life. I've use from Hard Disk Recorders to Macs and everything in between. Especially Logic, since you mentioned it, from the very early versions up until the latest one.
I've worked in a number of commercial studios, in a number of different posts, for a number of years. Doing work for projects ranging from film to classical music. I had the chance to try out a pretty good amount of gear. NOT always own it, but work with it on projects which had to be recorded/produced for commercial purposes.
I've also used live a number of tube and solid state amps, and amp modelers. To me, having a laptop loaded with one's favorite software and an audio interface on stage is something better be avoided. For a lot of reasons. This is why I prefer a portable, yet flexible enough, all-in-one hardware solution.

You are talking about Axe FX and HD with the conviction of an experienced user but you have admitted that you don't own or use any of the two units. So your judgement comes from watching other people using them on youtube or some other website.
On the other hand my comments on the G3 are based on my own experience over the period of a month using the unit in a real working situation.
NOT just through my headphones.
I'm currently working in a theater production. I have to be onstage with the actors. We tried a guitar amp and a computer loaded with all goodies, connected to a pro level audio interface. None of the two gave us the solution we wanted. Too loud without spreading the sound enough, or too many cables and gear onstage, etc.
The producer asked me to find a relatively cheap and stage friendly solution. I had to come up with something that would give me the two three sounds I wanted, being small, and work well with a couple of other pedal in front of it. Balanced XLR output to the desk was also a must. The G3 does all that and some more. To the extend that I'm seriously flirting with the idea of using it as part of my rig in some of my other projects.

Originally Posted by spiral

Someone who uses a solid state amp might prefer the G3 as it doesn't have as much compression or saturation trickiness like a tube amp does.

I think I covered this already....

[Gramps]

I really appreciate all of the opinions that have been expressed in this thread and think the only way to know if the G3 works for my needs is to buy one and return it if I'm dis-satisfied.

When comparing the Pod HD and Zoom G3 I realize that we are comparing units that aren't in the same price range. The HD is twice as expensive.

I'll order one on Friday (pay day) and try to post some samples if it works for me.

[harm.on.x]

Originally Posted by Gramps

I really appreciate all of the opinions that have been expressed in this thread and think the only way to know if the G3 works for my needs is to buy one and return it if I'm dis-satisfied.

I think this is the best way to go. This is what I did too. Even better if you can try both units at a music store. The only problem with music stores though is that you always have a bunch of metalheads banging away and it's usually way to loud to try anything. Also having something in your possession for more than half an hour gives you the opportunity to try it with the rest of your gear and in different situations. Tweak it to the point you get something useful out of it.

Originally Posted by Gramps

When comparing the Pod HD and Zoom G3 I realize that we are comparing units that aren't in the same price range. The HD is twice as expensive.

Not only that. They also have different amp models. For example there is no Fender Deluxe model on the G3. There is a Twin and a Vibroverb as far as Fender amp models go. I don't think it matters so much though because those model names are just indications on what is the approximately simulated tone. None of that stuff is 100% spot on. Even between the real models you often get differences between two identical amps.
The Deluxe model alone, was the only reason I tried to gather some info on the HD. I absolutely love this amp!

To be honest, I doubt you can go wrong with either unit. Depending on what you want of course. The G3 has really nice routing capabilities. It's extremely well designed in this respect. No Deluxe model though.... :-(
On the positive side, there is a really nice Matchless kind of sound, which is pretty much a NON treble boost Vox sound. The Vox treble boost circuit most modelers try to simulate is something I never cared for. I do like their normal channels for certain things though.
For stomp happy guys, there are not enough slots to pile up too many effects on the G3. The HD has the edge there. Each unit has some plus and minuses. It all depends on which one will do the overall trick better for you.

May I suggest something?
Try to go easy on the "tube" knob settings. If you stay around the "30" setting neighborhood you'll get enough compression without squashing things too much. Too much below that it gets a bit too lifeless for my taste. Too much above and it gets too mushy. Of course this is just according to my taste.
Also, feel free to mix and match amps and cabs in non conventional ways.
This freedom gave me the best results for the tone I was after.
PLease excuse me if I sound elementary, but I would like to add this too. CAREFUL use of post compression can bring recordings to life. In a live scenario when playing through a half decent PA speaker you might not need that. Live volume introduces a lot of things missing in studio recordings (especially home studio ones).

Originally Posted by Gramps

I'll order one on Friday (pay day) and try to post some samples if it works for me.

I hope it works for you. Good luck getting your tone soon with any unit you end up with. Let us know how things worked out.

EDIT: It's a really exciting time to play the guitar! There are so many ways to get good tone at affordable prices that even if you feel one unit doesn't do it for you there is another one waiting around the corner. There is a slight danger there for all of us though. We can easily become people who test tools instead of working with them. In my experience, the more I stick to something the more I can make it work for me.
One needs to make a reasonable choice to start with. Then give some time and put some effort to learn how to use properly the chosen device and make it work for his/her needs. This is why between the 100+ effects of the G3 I've only tried about 10 (including amp models) and end up dialing in only 3 patches. All using the same amp model with the same gain and EQ settings.