Rat

jorgemg1984 · #1 10-06-2011, 06:16 AM

Hi!

I am looking for a good distortion pedal to use in some jazz gigs. The RAT would be my first choice since I love the tone a lot of guys can get out of this pedal (Rosenwinkel, Scofield, Monder, Frisell). But then you start reading those threads about modded vs unmodded, USA vs China, new chip vs old chip and its very confusing.

Whats your experience with RATs? Buying a USA version and do something like Alumns mods? Get the real 80s thing for a huge price? Or there are other pedals that can get you there?

JK gets a great sound from his Sparkle Drive (7:50)

Jonathan Kreisberg Group - Kiitos |2008| - YouTube

Thanks!

Meggy · #2 10-06-2011, 06:45 AM

I have what I believe is a mark 2 RAT (bought in about '89/'90 if I remember). It's not bad, the Scofield type tone is there - not too much drive, and turn the tone control completely down to it's least trebly setting. Use any other setting on the tone, and I find the sound is just too "hairy" for my taste. Try one out before buying would be my advice - you can certainly finding smoother sounding distortion units.

marcwhy · #3 10-06-2011, 06:56 AM

Get the Freakish Blues "Alpha Drive:" Freekish Blues Alpha Drive

SamBooka · #4 10-06-2011, 08:45 AM

It got an early 90s rat2 last year for 100$ .

Did the alum mods to cut the gain a little.

I like it but dont use it for jazz.

jorgemg1984 · #5 10-06-2011, 08:49 AM

Besides the gain what changed with the alum mods? Was it worth it?

Thanks!

mr. beaumont · #6 10-06-2011, 09:08 AM

I have a "Big Box" RAT I bought about 15 years ago. Never thought about where it was made or what's inside it--it works just fine for a lightly distorted sound.

It's not something I use very often, but when I do, I'm reminded that I don't need to have any GAS for distortion boxes...

jorgemg1984 · #7 10-06-2011, 09:50 AM

Yeah the RAT is the thing really, love that sound. I might score a vintage one or a Rabbit clone, lets see...

SamBooka · #8 10-06-2011, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Besides the gain what changed with the alum mods? Was it worth it?

Thanks!

yeah... worth it for me.. made the pedal a little less heavy metal.
I dont remember all the details because I changed it after a couple of days so I dont remember how it sounded before.

Gramps · #9 10-06-2011, 11:12 AM

jorgemg1984,

I have a rackmount Rat (two rats in a single rackmount unit with foot switch) that is gathering dust. If you're in the US (due to shipping cost) I'll let it go cheap.

garryrenfro · #10 10-06-2011, 11:22 AM

Well, I take the opposite side of the fence from Mr. Beaumont. I absolutely lust after pedals! For my tastes, there are many overdrive pedals on the market that are great for jazz. I use several, depending on my mood, and specific tunes in a set. A few of my favorites are the Wampler Ecstasy, Wilson Effects Dual Lotus Drive II, and the Catlinbread Formula 5. They are capable of very subtle tone shaping, as well as providing the kind of gain found in Schofield, etc. You can find these in better stocked music stores.
My all time favorites are built by Joe Wolfe. His company is Retroman. He builds to order, so you would have to find someone who has one to try them out.
I have a "Dum-Box" (awkward name), which is his take on the Dumble sound. It is similar to an Ethos Overdrive, but less expensive.
I also have a "Sybil" which contains two Fuzzface type circuits, one germanium and one silicon based. Joe uses lower gain transistors in this pedal. Some guys snicker when I set them out for a jazz set, until they hear the beautiful sustain and smooth edge they can produce.

jorgemg1984 · #11 10-06-2011, 11:35 AM

VIRXILIO DA SILVA LIVE.. - YouTube

I never found this sound on other pedal than the RAT (friend of mine playing).. I keep hearing about black plague and brown rabbit - but I need to try one first.

Will check the pedals you mentioned though!

Richb · #12 10-06-2011, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

VIRXILIO DA SILVA LIVE.. - YouTube

I never found this sound on other pedal than the RAT (friend of mine playing).. I keep hearing about black plague and brown rabbit - but I need to try one first.

Will check the pedals you mentioned though!

Hey,

your friend sounds very good on that vid. Heavy Rosenwinkel influence, but excellent. i also have a lust for a Rat. I havw a friend w an 80's one and it sounds incredibly good. Super smooth

jorgemg1984 · #13 10-06-2011, 12:50 PM

Yeah I had some classes that turned into duo jam sessions with him last year. He lives in Galiza now but he is a great player - but very influenced by Kurt, no doubt.

I am crazy to get an 80s RAT... hope to get one here in Lisbon!

Any more opinions are welcome.

SamBooka · #14 10-06-2011, 04:15 PM

If prices are prohibitive I might suggest BYOC pedals

jorgemg1984 · #15 10-06-2011, 07:27 PM

Thanks, that option is on the table!

drewdea · #16 10-07-2011, 09:57 PM

I have a rat moded by Robert Keeley ...... worth checking out .... I don't have his web info handy but you can google him

gilchristobin · #17 10-08-2011, 01:48 AM

If prices are prohibitive I might suggest BYOC pedals

jorgemg1984 · #18 10-08-2011, 06:07 AM

Keeley stopped modding RATs.. I think my tech will build me one or get me one already modded, waiting for his call! I will report when I have news... thanks!

drewdea · #19 10-08-2011, 05:32 PM

he still mods rats but you have to send him yours .... although it seems the price went up !!

harm.on.x · #20 10-09-2011, 07:33 AM

I would like to say something about moding pedals.
FWIW....I have an early 80's Rat. In GREAT condition, all original etc, etc, etc.
I'm not using it because it's not the sound I'm after. The only reason I haven't sold it yet is because every time I check out the used market prices this thing is getting more and more expensive.
I also used to own a GREAT sounding old-ish Big Muff. One of the best I've ever heard. Used it for years and eventually retired it. At some point I ended up trading it (together with a "boutique" compressor and a couple other small inexpensive gizmos) for a used Tele!

Back to the Rat... I find that it cuts too much bass for my taste. Mind you, I'm more of a fuzz than a distortion guy. If I was about to use it I would have to mod it to suit my needs. Which brings us to the fact that if you own a vintage/expensive/collectable pedal, it's not worth tinker with it as it looses after sale value.

I played through the new Rat at a friend's studio. Didn't do an A/B test with mine but to me, the fundamental guitar tone and the amp tone are more important/prominent elements. They are shaping the overall tone way more than vintage vs modern Rat or any other pedal. My signal chain is very short, so maybe if I was going through more effects things would be different.
If you don't wanna fork out a lot of cash for a dirtbox just buy a USED "new version" and go with it. You can mod it, rebox it, repaint it, put your picture on the housing etc without caring. Moding an old one is another thing altogether. People argue that those older versions sound so much better so moding it defeats the purpose of paying the extra cash at the first point.
A friend of mine, who's very much into old amps and guitars etc exchanged his old rat with a new one plus some cash. He said he didn't hear ALL that much of a difference in his overall tone. YMMV.

hallpass · #21 10-09-2011, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garryrenfro

Well, I take the opposite side of the fence from Mr. Beaumont. I absolutely lust after pedals! For my tastes, there are many overdrive pedals on the market that are great for jazz. I use several, depending on my mood, and specific tunes in a set. A few of my favorites are the Wampler Ecstasy, Wilson Effects Dual Lotus Drive II, and the Catlinbread Formula 5. They are capable of very subtle tone shaping, as well as providing the kind of gain found in Schofield, etc. You can find these in better stocked music stores.
My all time favorites are built by Joe Wolfe. His company is Retroman. He builds to order, so you would have to find someone who has one to try them out.
I have a "Dum-Box" (awkward name), which is his take on the Dumble sound. It is similar to an Ethos Overdrive, but less expensive.
I also have a "Sybil" which contains two Fuzzface type circuits, one germanium and one silicon based. Joe uses lower gain transistors in this pedal. Some guys snicker when I set them out for a jazz set, until they hear the beautiful sustain and smooth edge they can produce.

Can the Formula 5 do low gain well? I've been curious about that one.

My overdrives are a Catalinbread DLS and ZVex Box of Rock and Distortron. Though I only use them for rock stuff. They can cover low to medium gain well.

jzucker · #22 10-09-2011, 09:48 AM

sco never used a modified one. I like the way the rat sounds but it's too '80s IMO...Like the chorus on a JC120. The zendrive style OD is much more modern (maybe 90s instead of 80s)

It also allows chords to be played...

jorgemg1984 · #23 10-09-2011, 09:56 AM

I have read about people going to Sco concerts and sayinghe had a blue Led on his RAT so it has to be modified... I think he has several RATs and at least one has Keeley mods, I think there are some pictures of his pedalboard where you can see a RAT with a toogle switch. Ben Monder also uses a Keeley RAT and I love his distorted sound on Chris Cheek "A Girl Named Joe" record.

Heard great thing about the Zendrive, people say its a Dumble in a box right? But I am really after the RAT vibe, I am sure there are many other great pedals out there.

Yeah the RAT is famous for cutting the bass, that's one of the main reasons for the mods... I think I will get something modded with a lot of switches, lets see what my tech can get me!

jorgemg1984 · #24 10-15-2011, 07:33 AM

So I made my decision. Talked with my tech and several local guys that build pedals and amps. They all agreed new RATs are poorly contructed and sound fine but not as good as old ones. An exact replica of an old rat can be built for something like 30€ for the parts and they all told me it will sound much better than these days RATs.

This is the original circuit:

http://www.tonepad.com/getFile.asp?id=89

But I actually settled for this thing:

ImageShack Album - 21 images

6 clipping options (one being the original circuit), LM308 chip, ruetz mod, feedback mod, led, true bypass, regular 9v jack and a really nice looking pedal (mine will be white, pink is not for me). Final cost 100€, buying a RAT and modding it would probably cost me the same or even more... Will report the sound when I have the pedal (2 months waiting time)

jzucker · #25 10-15-2011, 08:09 AM

sounds cool. I've thought about buying a custom rat. You probably know that a bunch of makers already make a replica of the original with improvements and they are relatively cheap.

jorgemg1984 · #26 10-15-2011, 09:05 AM

Yeah I have heard about Freakshow Rabbit (raved by Vic Juris), Cmat Mods Black Plague, VFE Alpha Dog.. the thing is those pedals usually cost around 200€ in Europe and they don't seem to be exactly RAT clones, they are more RAT inspired pedals right? I think Monte Allums also has one.

I wanted something that gave me the original RAT sound plus the mods. I think this guy nailed it, he tried all the mods on earth, compared old and new lm308 chips... took him a lot of time until he got this final design! And also he is from Portugal and we need to support our (struggling) economy! (A used RAT would cost me around 50€ plus the parts and tech work for the mods...)

I hope it sounds as good as he says!

Newport · #27 10-15-2011, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcwhy

Get the Freakish Blues "Alpha Drive:" Freekish Blues Alpha Drive

I would certainly not buy this pedal if it were me, do a little research on line about these guys....

Newport · #28 10-15-2011, 09:13 AM

From my personal experience the brown rabbit is a sweet pedal, but maybe a bit more gain than your standard rat.

jorgemg1984 · #29 10-15-2011, 09:27 AM

I am sure the rabbit is a great pedal - as the Cmat and VFE are. But then its a matter of taste and since I cant try the pedals its tough to buy them without trying.. the one I am buying will at least give me the RAT sound in the original clipping mode. I hope it will give me much more with all the options.

I don't know the alpha driver, Thadeus has an interesting gear blog that I read sometimes. But its a dumble overdrive, not a RAT (and for what I have read from the Dumble maniacs a zendrive is unbeatable in that department)

Newport · #30 10-15-2011, 12:40 PM

One od that I can certainly recommend for any jazz guitarist would be the barefoot honey bee. Very very touch responsive in that you will not even notice it's presence with a light thumb/pick but as you dig in it dirtys up into a nice mellow tweedy sound. Such a light od that my twin won't even recognize it under a 4 or 5 on the volume knob. Picked mine up used for $150. At that I feel it is a steal.