High end Archtops.....

benjazzman82 · #1 09-22-2011, 03:04 PM

Hello Everyone.

Just throwing this question out there really.

I am 29, have been playing jazz for 10 years now and have clicked with Peerless guitars and i have shown interest on another guitar just now. The Ibanez AK105SM thats just appeared on here...
This said, there is somewhere in me that wants and yearns for a high end archtop like a Bennedetto or an L5 or possibly a Sadowski etc...
My main question is, do you gig with these instruments or do they mainly stay at home in a humidity maintained room only to get out when a fellow jazz guitar geek comes round?

My guitars, i class as working guitars. A Peerless Jazz City and a Manhatten. Gig 3 nights a week at restaurants, functions etc... Great tone, not too expensive. The latter took a tumble recently and it broke my heart. Its at a luthier at the mo getting "re-mapled" on the lower bout.
If this was to happen to my beloved future L5, it would ruin me...

Just wanted some input from some guys who know their stuff.

Thanks for reeading.

Ben

coolvinny · #2 09-22-2011, 03:17 PM

For acoustic tone, it's probably worth it to get a fancy archtop. Perhaps an Andersen Streamline or something like that (some of the others are too over-the-top expensive) which is still expensive but not astronomical.

But for an electric voice, I think a Sadowsky is as high as one should go (or a comparable guitar from a small-scale builder with reasonable prices). I sold my high-end archtop because my nice tele-style guitar sounded just as good through an amp. And when my dog knocked the tele-style off its stand and it landed on the 'lower bout' smack against the edge of a very sturdy coffee table, it only had a little tiny knick in the wood. 'Character' rather than 'disaster'.

In this day and age, I don't see the point in an L5 or $5K+ archtop unless one has money to burn. If you're gigging you probably want at most a laminate archtop and in that context I think an L5 would be more of a liability than an asset.

Of course, opinions will vary. I have probably awoken the fury in some.

JohnW400 · #3 09-22-2011, 03:26 PM

Most guys I know that gig out regularly have high end stuff for record dates and an Epiphone (or a 175 that they've had forever) or some other moderately priced box.

You've got the right idea. Laminate and inexpensive for a regular gig.

mr. beaumont · #4 09-22-2011, 03:28 PM

I guess for the kinds of gigs I do, it's just not practical. I mean, I've had to wipe spaghetti sauce off my guitar on more than one occaision.

Which is ironic for me to say, because my three favorite guitars are not easily replaceable...My Hofner Verythin model is no longer made, my early 60's Kay doesn't have many twins growing on trees (let alone with DeArmond pickups) and my tele was pieced together from several guitars to make one "frankentele" that met all my specs.

But guitars are meant to be played. Something tells me that if I could afford an L5 I'd sure as hell be playing it every chance I got--bolognese be damned!

AlohaJoe · #5 09-22-2011, 03:51 PM

It depends on the gig. I have a few valuable vintage archtops that I hesitate to gig with but love to play, so there are gigs that I'll take them to but not many. If I have doubts that the guitar will be entirely safe I'll take something nice but replaceable. I have a (customized) Guild X150 single-pup that's a dream to play and sounds fantastic (Biltoft CC pup) through an old Polytone. I could replace it (as equipped) if needed for between $1k-1300. That's my default play-out rig.

However, I did have a small-combo gig last week playing background instrumentals at a private party and played a '48 Epi Broadway w/DeArmond through a '65 PR because I love playing that combo. But an upscale gig is no guarantee of safety. If that was all lost I couldn't replace it. In this case (I know the folks) I was confident it would be safe and took the risk.

On the other hand, I have a friend with a beautiful mid-30s L5 that he gigs with all the time. It's worth a small fortune, beautiful and sounds absolutely perfect for what he's doing, but he loves to play it and to him it's an essential part of "his sound" so he's obsessively careful, and willing to take some risk.

I'm not that brave. Money is part of the reason, but the difficulty of replacing nice vintage gear is also part of the equation for me.
- Joe

NSJ · #6 09-22-2011, 04:00 PM

Laminate plywood archtops don't have to worry about humidity and such like a carved solid tone wood does--they are meant to be the "giggable guitar".

Sadowsky apparently does not envision his models as "high end" boutiques, they are laminates meant for the gigging musician.

kamlapati · #7 09-22-2011, 04:37 PM

I gig with my '46 L-5.

But I don't play bars or shouting-loud rooms. I'm an amateur and I don't play anywhere just for the money. If I was a pro, taking all kinds of jobs in different places, I would take the appropriate guitar.

cjm · #8 09-22-2011, 04:43 PM

Quote:

If this was to happen to my beloved future L5, it would ruin me...

The "gotta-have-a-better-guitar" syndrome flairs up in me every so often. And in fact, since you mentioned the L5, it hit me so bad once about 35 years ago that I bought one and played it as my main ax for years. But I eventually came to my senses and sold it.

Here's what I do: When the symptoms hit, I ask myself, "Am I a better guitar player than Joe Pass was?"

Well, the answer to that is an unequivocal, "No."

So then I ask, "Am I almost as good a player as Joe Pass was?"

Again, "No."

In desperation I whine, "Aren't I nearly as good, even if I'm not quite as good?"

And the answer is ugly, "Not even close, Dick Weed. Wake up. The dog just barfed on your shoe."

Thanks to the magic of youtube, I can watch Joe Pass play a number of cheap (although entirely adequate) guitars ranging from slabs to CNC machine built Asian archtops.

And if he did okay with guitars like that, then who am I foolin' (besides myself) as I attempt to rationalize the purchase of something like another L5, or a Benedetto, or...

mangotango · #9 09-22-2011, 04:57 PM

Nice venue? Vestax D'Angelico NYL-5.

Not so nice? Epi Joe Pass

Dump? Ibanez AS73. Or find a dep.

hot ford coupe · #10 09-22-2011, 05:07 PM

In my case, I have one really high end guitar and that's primarily because of music history and not because it sounds so much better than any other instrument. The guitar sounds great but it's probably not set up to function as it was intended. I sound the same as I do when I play my $2000 guitar. Like everyone else pretty much said, If you like the sound of the guitar you're using, you're happy with it and it's doing exactly what you want, you should stick with it. It's the music you play and not so much the guitar.

Patrick2 · #11 09-22-2011, 05:49 PM

Jack Wilkens, Jimmy Bruno, John Pisano, Jim Hall . . many others gigged regularly with Benedettos. Anthony Wilson occasionally gigs with a Monteleone. Hundreds of jazzers gig regularly with L5s. Many with Super 400s. Some with Artist Awards . . . . I could go on forever. I have a few really nice arch tops. I would not be at all concerned about gigging with any of them. If the venue comes into question, as possibly a really bad place to bring a really nice guitar . . . I would decline the contract and not gig there. Now, for me that's easy to say. I haven't gigged in 25 years and probably will never gig again in my life time. Some may need to take a gig regardless of the condition of the venue. If it's a real shit hole . .. and you must do the gig. Don't show up with a $10,000 arch top.

The guitar I play is part of the performance experience . . . for me anyway. I know that sounds really idealistic. But . . . that's just me.

jorgemg1984 · #12 09-22-2011, 07:21 PM

One thing is gigging big venues other is gigging small bars / restaurants. On the first case I can easily gig with my old Guild X-500. Actually I take it almost everywhere except for the second case mentioned above where I usually take a 335 copy I have, because I am always afraid someone takes it down or spells beer on it. But man do I miss my archtop on those gigs...

Guitars were made to be played not to be a piece of a museum

fumblefingers · #13 09-22-2011, 07:34 PM

it seems that most players keep their really fine and/or collectible archtops at home.

but as was said before

top name pros and others making good money gigging may decide to play a fine guitar - if it suits their on stage sound goals, and especially if they record their gigs.

if i were to gig, i would play out with a "replaceable" guitar.

kenbennett · #14 09-22-2011, 07:46 PM

You guys are freaking me out. What can happen on a gig that would make you have to "replace" your guitar?

davekain · #15 09-22-2011, 08:12 PM

[quote=Patrick2;172131]Jack Wilkens, Jimmy Bruno, John Pisano, Jim Hall . . many others gigged regularly with Benedettos. Anthony Wilson occasionally gigs with a Monteleone. Hundreds of jazzers gig regularly with L5s.

Yeah, but those guys "endorse" those guitars. Jack Wilkins DID NOT pay $13,000 for his Benedetto's. Although, he did sell it for around there when he got another and bored with the older one. Must be nice to have endorsements:-(

jmac · #16 09-22-2011, 09:12 PM

I've never had the money to buy a really top end instrument, but I can't see why you would own a fine instrument only to play it at home. Beside, most of the nicks and scratches I've put on my guitars have been when I'm at home. At home I playing, the phone rings, I reach for the phone and bang the guitar into the table. (or something like that, it happens all the time at home, never when I'm playing out). I don't think I've ever damaged an instrument at a gig; It's either in the case, on a stand, or I'm playing it.

rpguitar · #17 09-22-2011, 09:28 PM

I don't gig often, but when I do, the parameters for what instrument to use are drastically different from when I'm noodling at home. At home, you can put up with an instrument's idiosyncrasies or mildly un-ergonomic attributes. When performing, all of that is a huge distraction and you need a guitar that feels and plays right, with as little compromise as possible. Sometimes that's the high end, exquisite guitar. Other times (ironically), it's the cheaper, simpler one.

I love playing my '47 L-5, but it's not what I'd choose when playing out, and not because of its value or rarity. It's just harder to play then, say, my Eastman 904CE, my Forshage Ergo electric or even my Epiphone 50th Anniversary Casino. But then again, vanity often rears its ugly head, and I'd rather be SEEN with a vintage L-5 than something more pedestrian! So it's a battle...

max chill · #18 09-22-2011, 10:00 PM

If I had a fine, very expensive instrument, I'd definitely want to keep it locked up where no one would hear it.

Larry M · #19 09-22-2011, 10:28 PM

Lots of wisdom in the last 2 posts by rpguitar and max chill. "Just play the darn thing", but you've got to actually be comfortable doing it on your gig. When you are playing for others, you want tone, but you NEED to be able to play with comfort and precision--these wind up trumping some other factors in a live situation. Could be the cheapo that you need to go to when you perform, but don't be afraid to use the valuable axe---they are meant and need to be played.

Patrick2 · #20 09-22-2011, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmac

I've never had the money to buy a really top end instrument, but I can't see why you would own a fine instrument only to play it at home. Beside, most of the nicks and scratches I've put on my guitars have been when I'm at home. At home I playing, the phone rings, I reach for the phone and bang the guitar into the table. (or something like that, it happens all the time at home, never when I'm playing out). I don't think I've ever damaged an instrument at a gig; It's either in the case, on a stand, or I'm playing it.

Great point!!

Drifter · #21 09-23-2011, 12:59 AM

Have none of you high-end archtop giggers ever been afraid that it could be stolen? That would be more my concern than any damage. I wouldn't mind a small character ding, at least if the gig were good.

@benjazzman

The Ibanez AK105 is a wonderful gigging guitar. It's small, comfortable, plays like butter and sounds really nice. But does it sound better than your Peerless? I doubt it. It would be more like a nice alternative on the cheap level. Nothing wrong with that at all. And at your age your time will come to buy a L5, £375 shouldn't throw you back for ever.

AlohaJoe · #22 09-23-2011, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drifter

Have none of you high-end archtop giggers ever been afraid that it could be stolen?

That is the primary fear... a lot of nice gear has disappeared between the stage and the van. That's why musicians need good ears and good eyesight.

Flat · #23 09-23-2011, 02:29 AM

And an insurance policy.

I've got a minimal policy for my gear with Heritage Insurance. It's about $240 per year to insure $20,000 to $25,000 worth of gear against a whole lot of trouble.

I still wouldn't cart a vintage D'Angelico to a gig though, even if I had one.

oldane · #24 09-23-2011, 03:00 AM

There are two kids of hazards:

1) The gig itself. The risk depends on the venue in question and may be lesser than many think. It has been discussed above.

2) Air travel. I think airport luggage handling damages more guitars seriously than gigging (I'm not talking about nicks, dents and pasta bolognaise sauce here). I would never bring an expensive and/or irreplaceable guitar on an air flight if I could at all avoid it. Not even with a Calton case or the like. And I wouldn't dream of flying with any guitar in anything less than a Calton quality case, unless I had a bought an extra seat for it. Promises made by the airline on the phone that the guitar can be taken on board as hand luggage should not be trusted. The check in people in the airport may not agree and then you have problems - especially if you have agreed to pack the guitar in a gig bag to save space instead of in a hard case.

Due to the rigeurs of travelling, Freddie Green stopped using his two Stromberg guitars after the death of Elmer Stromberg, which made the prices of Stromberg guitars rise drastically. Instead he made an endorsement deal with Gretsch and kept the Strombergs at home in his NY appartment and only brought them out on recording dates in NY City when he was in that mood.

benjazzman82 · #25 09-23-2011, 03:49 AM

Thanks for all the info guys. Some real pearls of wisdom there.
I dont realy play in venu's that attract a dodgy sort of client or that are renowned dives. Its 3 residencies at restaurants on the coast and a good measure of weddings chucked in aswell. Usually realy chilled gigs.

My peerless got injured at a friends funeral. A gust of wind took an unweighted marquee of the ground and knocked it off its stand.

Like some of you say, alot of silly injuries happen at home i suppose.

I do realise that i am most certainly not the next Jo Pass and also question my thought process when looking at very nice guitars. I often get complimented on the peerless guitars and i am a firm believer that its what you bring out of the instrument and not the other way round...

...am i deserving of a high end archtop?...i just dont know. Its my living. It is a tool of my trade....

I think at least till i am 40 or rich, i will stay on the budget/sub £1000 line and maybe ask the question at a later stage.

I realy do appreciate your input and thanks for taking the time to reply.
Its great to hear from people who play these lovley instrments.

Thanks

Ben

marcwhy · #26 09-23-2011, 07:07 AM

Fun question, great resposes.

I agree with some: It depends (whether you need one or not).

I'm not sure of your definition of "expensive;" some people think over $2000 (USD) is expensive, others think $8000. My last guitars have been in the $2000-3500 range, and these are my gigging guitars. There are a lot of wonderful guitars at the $4000-5000 range, and I'd love to have one, but I'm happy with what I have.

I tend to baby my guitars at gigs, and I have never had an accident, so I don't worry so much about something getting hurt or stolen.

Another point: most of the "high-end" archtops are true acoustic-archtops, made to be performed in fairly mellow spaces. With a loud quartet or a larger venue, there could be feedback problems, and you may as well have a semi-hollowbody, IMO. For a quiet restaurant gig, they'd be fine.

If you have the money, go for it! The only problem: there are too many options out there (besides Benedetto and Sadowsky)!

Good luck!

rpguitar · #27 09-23-2011, 04:12 PM

There ARE too many options out there. But for me, it's the Gibson L-5. I don't know why, but it's just the shizzle. The ultimate history-imbued, tonally perfect, classic, prestigious instrument. I couldn't care less if I'm good enough to own one. I am fascinated with many contemporary luthiers and their gorgeous, modern designs. But if I really had to go out with one axe, it's a vintage L-5.

The problem is that I love a blonde non-cutaway (which I have!) but also want a blonde cutaway L-5C. And those are even more expensive. I got my '47 blonde non-cut for $4900, which was a surprise "bargain" that I couldn't pass up. Still looking for the miracle L-5C deal.

teleman3726 · #28 09-23-2011, 06:20 PM

To the OP, if you want to buy a high-end archtop, I would (life is short) and just exercise caution, as you would with anything you don't want damaged.
I've played dives and my tele works just fine (and, as one poster said: dings constitute character, esp. on a blackguard tele). I've played more straight-ahead jazz gigs to larger audiences and my Campy Deluxe can't cut it because of the feedback potential. So I use a D'A laminate. Plays fine, sounds fine with the higher quality pup. For practicing at home or jamming with a friend or two, Campy comes out and I run it through a Princeton reverb at 3-4.
So go ahead and bust the bank and get that gorgeous archtop that''ll make your buds green with envy!!!

fumblefingers · #29 09-23-2011, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpguitar

There ARE too many options out there. But for me, it's the Gibson L-5. I don't know why, but it's just the shizzle. The ultimate history-imbued, tonally perfect, classic, prestigious instrument. I couldn't care less if I'm good enough to own one. I am fascinated with many contemporary luthiers and their gorgeous, modern designs. But if I really had to go out with one axe, it's a vintage L-5.

The problem is that I love a blonde non-cutaway (which I have!) but also want a blonde cutaway L-5C. And those are even more expensive. I got my '47 blonde non-cut for $4900, which was a surprise "bargain" that I couldn't pass up. Still looking for the miracle L-5C deal.

i am getting distracted by the 1934 L5 reissue. Gibson's website says its "out of production".

just curious, why are you selling yours?

Patrick2 · #30 09-23-2011, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpguitar

There ARE too many options out there. But for me, it's the Gibson L-5. I don't know why, but it's just the shizzle. The ultimate history-imbued, tonally perfect, classic, prestigious instrument. I couldn't care less if I'm good enough to own one. I am fascinated with many contemporary luthiers and their gorgeous, modern designs. But if I really had to go out with one axe, it's a vintage L-5.

The problem is that I love a blonde non-cutaway (which I have!) but also want a blonde cutaway L-5C. And those are even more expensive. I got my '47 blonde non-cut for $4900, which was a surprise "bargain" that I couldn't pass up. Still looking for the miracle L-5C deal.

So . . . there it is! An L5 . . . is an L5!! Nothing else is an L5! They were conceived and developed out of 225 Parsons Street, Kalamazoo Michigan. Let's never forget that!!!!