Jazz Amps Prices

[jorgemg1984]

Well I have been thinking about starting this thread for some time now. First, this is not another thread about the best jazz amp!

I have recently bought two cheap 80s amps: a Peavey Bandit 65 and a Fender M80, both solid state. I have put new speakers on them (Tornado on the 65 and EV on the M80), upgraded the op amps to OPA2134PA and did some other minor mods (tweeter with on/off switch on the B65, new reverb tank on the M80 and a switch to use both amps as combo / head / cabinet). Both amps costed me less than 500€ with all the mods / tech work included.

They already sounded good stock but now they are both phenomenal! Both clean and loud as hell with good reverb (they sound excellent with my pedalboard and nova system as well). And not to mention reliability, you still see both amps around a lot! They are not light but they are liftable.

Now lets see jazz amp combo prices: Henriksen 112 R (900US / 900€), AI Contra (1000€ / 1170US), Polytone MB II (1045US, usually around 1300€ in erope). Evans are very rare in europe so I don't compare them. Jazzkat or AER are usually on the same price range. And IMO you need new speakers in both henriksen and polytone to get them to sound good so you must add that to the price.

I have an Henriksen and a Jazzmaster Ultralight (discontinued), the JMUL is phenomenal, a little better than both the 65 and the M80 and much lighter. One of the best things Fender did in the last 10 years too bad they killed it with bad marketing. But the Henriksen is not on the same league as the other two. I also did an A / B with a Mega Brute and there's no comparison! The 65 and the M80 sound much better and much louder than both Henriksen and Polytone with my archtop. And they are also much more versatile to pop / rock gigs.

So why do people pay so much money for "jazz amps"? Is it just good marketing?

[marcwhy]

The answer is within your post: it's just personal opinion what anyone likes or not, and people pay for what they like.

Simple.

[Stackabones]

Agree w/marcwhy, but I think that a heaping helping of hype helps.

[jorgemg1984]

Hmm I am not sure its just personal opinion, I think a lot of people buy "jazz amps" for the same reason they use flatwounds: because they are supposed to and "jazz amps" brands sell overpriced amps due to this fact. Lets see if we can get other opinions.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

So why do people pay so much money for "jazz amps"? Is it just good marketing?

Niche market.

[BobD]

I'm glad to hear that these older SS amps can produce a decent jazz tone. I've been thinking about getting one of the many Peavey's I see for under 100 bucks. Many Bandit's , Envoy's and Studio Pro's. A lot of amp for cheap money.

[jorgemg1984]

Yes, its a niche market the point is you can get the same or better from an amp that's half or 1/3 the price but its not known as a "jazz amp".

The thing I have noticed after all these mods is that they have upgraded from decent tone (stock) to excellent tone (modded). And still cheap...

[hans halmackenreuter]

well i agree that psychological aspect play a certain role in the ampmarket and if ithink of our heros, we probably all have our links to specific amps of our legends. but i think that jorgemg1984 got a point, when he thinks that the amps are to expansive, because if we think of polytone, they supposed to be cheap amps in the beginning same with gibson es 175 for instance. and now? they are far fetched from being cheap

[mr. beaumont]

If the sound of the M80 or Bandit works for you, enjoy it.

My henriksen is the finest amplifier I've ever owned...the eq alone is worth it...I can dial my guitar in in any room. Plus, with my small speaker cab, my whole rig is tiny and very light, with more volume than I might ever need.

It's not all marketing...some products work.

[jorgemg1984]

I am not saying people that buy those amps are stupid - I just think "jazz amps" are good but overpriced. Very overpriced sometimes. I would like to know the margins on most of them.

Your rig is light because you have an henriksen head and a rs-8 right? The combos are not that light. And if I recall you bought the first one very cheap and the second one on a discount. New they would both cost over 1000USD. And even more in Europe.

Volume is also subjective. I had a hard time in the past using my henriksen with drums, double bass, sax and trumpet. In the same project the Bandit 65 (pre modded) cut through much more. Everyone talks about quiet drummers but I never met them If you only play quiet gigs your rig is very good (but expensive).

About the EQ actually I never had any problem with regular tone controls. With the Henriksen I am never able to control the treble the way I want. But again the Henriksen is a very good amp, just too expensive because its a "jazz amp", I am able to get a better sound (subjective of course) from cheaper amps.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Yes, its a niche market the point is you can get the same or better from an amp that's half or 1/3 the price but its not known as a "jazz amp".

The thing I have noticed after all these mods is that they have upgraded from decent tone (stock) to excellent tone (modded). And still cheap...

Of course. I'm not disputing that, and i think there is always a better or worse example of every product that exists. Amplifiers "for jazz" are a niche market so therefore are going to be more expensive.

There is also an image issue: it is often said around here that you can play jazz on anything, but i have yet to see anyone play any standards on a Dimebag Razorback (though i want to).

Whether or not they are higher quality is irrelevant to what people will pay in that niche; they are products that have a very specific feature set for a small group and the price reflects it. If you can get the features and sound from a Peavy or Fender, you will be a richer person and will finally be able to afford that Dimebag Razorback!

[jorgemg1984]

Originally Posted by spiral

Whether or not they are higher quality is irrelevant to what people will pay in that niche; they are products that have a very specific feature set for a small group and the price reflects it. If you can get the features and sound from a Peavy or Fender, you will be a richer person and will finally be able to afford that Dimebag Razorback!

So I am right, those amps are overpriced and sell at that price due to marketing! And also image as you said

Theres a huge market for jazz stuff, just the amount of books that promise you will be Jim Hall in 2 weeks says it all

[cosmic gumbo]

I thought if you didn't have a Polytone, that other guitarist would spit on you. This isn't true?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

So I am right, those amps are overpriced and sell at that price due to marketing! And also image as you said

Are you looking to be right or for insight? You wondered why they are more expensive / people buy them and i think it is because they fill a very specific need in a small market. So sure: some of it is marketing, some of it is image, some of it is feature set. Why does it have to be either / or? You could same the same thing about archtop guitars, or cars, or floor wax. It's a column A, B, and C situation.

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I thought if you didn't have a Polytone, that other guitarist would spit on you. This isn't true?

Absolutely true, but that is why the Peavey logo looks that way: you just yank it off and gut them.

[NSJ]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I thought if you didn't have a Polytone, that other guitarist would spit on you. This isn't true?

Apparently only on "the fringes of the jazz wasteland".

[GreyJazz90]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

If the sound of the M80 or Bandit works for you, enjoy it.

My henriksen is the finest amplifier I've ever owned...the eq alone is worth it...I can dial my guitar in in any room. Plus, with my small speaker cab, my whole rig is tiny and very light, with more volume than I might ever need.

It's not all marketing...some products work.

Im inclined to agree with Mr. Beaumont. I tried tons of amps out(tube and SS) and found the Henriksen to be the best bang for my buck. I love the EQ on it so much. I personally don't think the 1,000 dollar price tag is too much for what I've gotten out of it.

[Tom Karol]

I have a stock Henriksen JazzAmp 112. I use a thin-line semi-hollow with it (never tried a full-size jazz box with it) and get the best jazz tone I've ever had in my 50 years of playing. I also have a ZT Club. With a Telecaster and a few effects, I get killer (and very loud if necessary) rock tones with it, and it only weighs 22 pounds. Different tools for different jobs (and different tastes).

[robertm2000]

Best jazz tone I've ever gotten: Tele style guitar with a Pet Biltoft Vitage Vibe CC-Rider, DI input on an FMR Audio Really Nice Preamp, plain power amp, 70 watts, and an 8" speaker. Full, round tone that held its own with a drummer, amplified violin player and electric bassist. Nobody played REALLY loud, and it wasn't a musically outstanding event, so no recordings. But it sounded good. I was satisfied soundwise.

[mongrel]

I've been looking for another small home-use amp since I got rid of my old Champ that needed new caps and I'd been down that road before. Last weekend I bought a nearly new Kustom 12A for $60 and have been playing with it for the last couple of days. It has a 12AX7 in the preamp stage and a solid state power amp that puts out 12 watts plus an 8 ohm line out. I replaced the factory Chinese tube with a Sovtek and plugged it into an old
2 x 10" Ampeg combo minus that amp and it sounds real good. Also connected it to one of the 15" keyboard amp speakers and the sound got a good bit bigger. Suprising to me is the best jazz tones come from the Celestion 8" speaker in the amp when I play my only full hollow, a Joe Pass with Duncan Phat Cats.

[jorgemg1984]

Ok so some people hear something I don't on the Henriksen. I don't hear something that justifies costing 3x more compared to the other two. Its a good amp but its very far from being the best I have ever heard for jazz.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I thought if you didn't have a Polytone, that other guitarist would spit on you. This isn't true?

I swear by Polytone, had one die many years ago, went through many other amps, when I tried Polytone again, I Ab'd with many other amps. I haven't bought another amp since. Seems most players around here (CLT) hate them. I think that amp and TI strings are more vital to my sound than the actual guitar as long as it's an archtop.

I'd never spit on anyone.

[CAGED1702]

IMHO: I think that tube amps are overpriced - it is a technique from pre-WW1 and there are no good reliable tubes around any more - they all come from Russia or China or Slovakia, despite what it says on the label. SS has come a long way and now I use a Tech 21 trademark 60 amp, which gives me ALL the sounds I want - from Benson to Carlton...the guys at Tech 21 NYC know what they're doing. And there is also a trademark 30 (with Accutronics reverb, headphone out etc) for way under $400 - check it out..! Cheers.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

So why do people pay so much money for "jazz amps"? Is it just good marketing?

Probably because they enjoy those amps, can afford them, couldn't find any better with reasonable effort and don't bother thinking if it's the best bang for the buck. And because handicraft work on old amps isn't their cup of tea anyway. Or simply because the missus likes the looks of something new and shiny better than that of an old tattered box. And because she suffers from SAS (Shoe Acquisition Syndrome) and wants her husband to have an equally expensive hobby to avoid endless discussions. Whatever. Each to his own.

Anyway, your solution sounds like a winner. Enjoy!

[Pierrot]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

I am not saying people that buy those amps are stupid.

Ufff! Thank you.

After reading your first post, and given I own one Polytone MegaBrute, one Polytone MiniBrute V, two Roland Cube60, one ZT Club, one Phil Jones CUB100, one Roland AC60 and one Crate PB150, all of them for jazz, none of them modded, and also given I'm happy with them, I was feeling concerned about my mental competence...

[jorgemg1984]

Hi Pierrot!

Just trying to understand if there's something magical about these amps that makes them so expensive. I know they sound good (in Polytone case not the new ones IMO) and that a lot of players use them, I just feel they are overpriced. Everyone is free to like different things! A lot of good players here buy these amps and obviously know what they are doing, I am by no means better than any of you.

As someone said earlier Polytones were cheap and light amps in the begging, that's why they were famous. After all these years they are no longer cheap or light compared to other amps and the sound quality has decreased in new models. So why they keep the "aura"? To me some people think they need one to play jazz!

[jorgemg1984]

Originally Posted by Drifter

Probably because they enjoy those amps, can afford them, couldn't find any better with reasonable effort and don't bother thinking if it's the best bang for the buck. And because handicraft work on old amps isn't their cup of tea anyway. Or simply because the missus likes the looks of something new and shiny better than that of an old tattered box. And because she suffers from SAS (Shoe Acquisition Syndrome) and wants her husband to have an equally expensive hobby to avoid endless discussions. Whatever. Each to his own.

Anyway, your solution sounds like a winner. Enjoy!

I think you just nailed it!

[Kuz]

Originally Posted by marcwhy

The answer is within your post: it's just personal opinion what anyone likes or not, and people pay for what they like.

Simple.

+3

There are some popular brand (less inexpensive) amps that some people love, which I have owned a couple of, that I couldn't get a good tone of it.... again this is my opiinion. Of course the same has held true for a couple of VERY expensive amps. In general, just my opinion, it is all in what tone you like and I had to pay to get the amps that gave me the tone that I wanted.

[morroben]

It's a matter of taste and I'm all for less expensive amps, that's why I build my own. But hype is hype, whether it's an ad for an expensive "jazz amp" in a magazine or a guy on an internet forum with a lightly modded Bandit 65. It's still hype. Your argument will be much more compelling if we can hear soundclips of these amps that you're so thrilled with. I truly don't mean this as an insult, but as it stands now, I'm not going to simply take your word for it that your M80 and Bandit 65 sound better than a Henriksen. The one thing that Henriksens have going for them is that I've heard them and played through them. So let's hear it.

[jorgemg1984]

Dont have the time to make the clips right now, but I already have my answer. People really like "jazz amps" and think they are worth the price. IMO and experience they are not, at least the ones I tried - Henriksen, Polytone and AI are too expensive new in Europe. On a good second hand price they are worth it. The only "jazz amp" I tried I think is excellent and that I would pay the retail value (when they were produced) its the Jazzmaster Ultralight. But again this is very subjective. Thanks for all your opinions!

PS - This is probably also true to a lot of Fender Reissues or even Marshall, they sell overpriced amps with good marketing. My tech just build a Marshall head clone (don't remember model) for 600€ (just parts, not labor). The retail price of that model is more than 2000€ and his amp has much better components.

[Pierrot]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

.....Thanks for all your opinions!.....

You're welcome.