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OK, I've broached this elsewhere but still have no resolution so here's a new thread.
Obviously the 335 is a guitar well enough suited for jazz without being a full hollowbody, the HRD-410 tube amp is way too loud for home use. But, I can find tones which are just barely acceptable (read, for me at least, really unacceptable). The tubes are standard Fender, though I do have a set of matched JJ power and pre-amp tubes which I could install. I'd like to have a nice, dark, woody tone and would very much appreciate any suggestions anyone might have. Typically at the moment, I set the amp like so:
vol 2
tbl 4-5
bass 3-4
mid 9
rvb as low as possible to have just a little
pres 0
I'm not sure that it changes anything, but I have tried setting the master to max. I use normally the neck pup and roll vol and tone off to about 7 each. I play close to this pup.
Of course, it could be my technique :-) which in jazz improv is still very beginner level, but I have no problem with chord comping. I usually play with fingers and or just thumb.
Or am I just trying to get an impossible sound out of this amp? I'd like to have a better idea before giving up and selling the amp. I will be adding an archtop soon and am a bit worried that I won't even like that tone through this amp!
Thanks for any advice you can offer,
Cheers,
Tony
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09-02-2011 01:13 PM
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IMO most Fender amps need to be modded to sound good for jazz, they are voiced for country / blues. But a lot of people have a different opinion.
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I plug my 335 into a Fender Bandmaster VM driving a Weber California Ceramic 15. My friends think it's the best sound I've ever had. Click on the link for a picture:
It has a more versatile tone than the Deville (I tried one of them in the past, and didn't like it). This rig has a sweet top end with a deep bottom and a prominent midrange -- more vocal sounding than other Fenders.
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The Hot Rod series in particular are voiced more for rock/blues and maybe country players. And the smaller 10" speakers won't give the fullest sound. The Twin and Deluxe, both with 12" speakers, and are maybe more "jazz-friendly" (or at least used more often for a traditional jazz guitar sound).
I tried a Fender clone with a 15" speaker one time. Great, warm sound.
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IMO most Fender amps need to be modded to sound good for jazz
I agree. But a simple modification to the 'tone' stack' - changing 2 components - makes fender amps sound much fuller and 'jazzy'. I won't bore with the details, but anyone interested can pm me.
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Exactly, just changing the tone stack (very easy and cheap mod) will improve any fender amp greatly. People are always selling amps that are too dark or too bright and its so easy to change that.
About your amp I am not too crazy about 10 speakers. I would rather have a 2x12 than a 4x10.
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Try this: put all tone controls, including presence on maximum (wide open). Give it some volume too, around 3-4. (if it gets too noisy/hissy roll off the treble a little bit). Then adjust tone and volume from your guitar.
It works for my Blues Deluxe and my ES 333. A nice open, no more bass-heavy tone, with nice woodyness if you roll back the highs a bit. I know the Hot Rod series is voiced a little different, but it's worth a try I think
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Thanks guys.
Little Jay, I tried your suggestion and it certainly isn't worse than where I was at - even a bit better much to my surprise :-) But I had to roll the guitar tone off to around 4-5. Not bad on neck pup or with both. I guess I'll leave it there for a while.
The 4x10 comments are interesting and logical (before this amp I usually used 2x12 or 4x12 cabs, though again, more for rock and blues). It's interesting then that some of the really nice sounding jazz amps (Henriksen for example) use 10" speakers, I think.
I'll look into the mods idea and then go to plan B which would be to sell off everything I own (except my D55 acoustic) and get a couple of nice archtops and a jazz amp :-)
Cheers,
tony
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i played a 335 for that amp for the better part of the year, got a great sound and the only reason why I ditched it was because it was not practical enough for a jazz setting due to it's size. I used it in a studio session and I couldn't have been happier with the sound.
The Pres at 0 I think might be the problem, you might want to experiment with it at around 11:00. Put the master vol below the regular vol just a little bit, that seems to warm her up. you don't need any bass on these amps, all modern fender amps are bass end heavy imo
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The Henriksen has 10 and 12 versions. According to almost all reviews I have read the 12 is much fuller but I never tried the 10. One of the most common mods on Princeton Reverb is upgrading from 10 to 12.
If you go to a good tech that knows about modding amps (not just a guy that knows about repairing) he will be able to help you for sure. If you read about it online a lot of jazz guys tweak their amps. Give Franz a pm, he will help you with the tone stack. Fenders are very good amps for jazz when you mod them, much cheaper then selling it and buying a "jazz amp".
I have played several amps with presence on zero with no problem at all. I actually feel Fenders are treble heavy not bass heavy, sometimes I even feel the bass is a little loose (maybe due to open cabinet, output transformer or in this case 10 speakers). Its funny how people hear so differently
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Jake - excellent advice too. I've just been playing around with a higher pres and little by little I'm getting closer to an acceptable sound. Did you ever play full bodied archtops through your amp?
Jorge - we all play differently and hear differently - that's what makes so many of the threads here so much funm especially when a few get so bent out of shape :-) For most of us, though, it's a life-long learning and seeking experience, trying to play better, get better tone, listening to great advice, putting aside advice which doesn't work (for each person of course). I'll see what Franz has to say and go one step at a time.
I'm totally with Jake that this amp is too big, too heavy, and too loud for my needs today, and will probably end up (eventually) going for something much smaller - but as you guys say, with a 12" or even 15" speaker. But first I'd like to just get that really sweet archtop to get a better idea of what I'd be looking for amp-wise, that's why I'd like to persevere with the HRD for a while longer at least.
Cheers,
Tony
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Yes find a good guitar first and then find a amp that suits her, that's the way!
BTW do you gig or its just for home practice?
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Jorge - I used to gig. now I play just for my lonesome and teach rock, blues and folk. But a weird neurological disease which hit me a few years ago makes all of that too noisy for my head to handle. In short, that's why I'm looking for a nice, smooth, easy to handle jazz tone! Then the technique will hopefully still come!
That said, I'd give up one of my old guitars to gig again!
tony
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I use a ER112 Henriksen as my main amp and it's fantastic. I haven't owned a fullbody guitar in many years so I couldn't say.
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Tony, if I were you and wanted a rather dark tone but with enough note definition, I would rather turn the treble down to around 9 o'clock (darkness) and as Jake suggested, bring the presence back up to around noon (note definition).
Then you could tailor the body of the tone with the mid knob, and the low end "oomph" with the bass control.
But the "harshness/softness" control on a regular guitar amp is definitely the treble knob, because it covers the 2 - 5kHz frequency range.
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In some amps I notice the harshness is also in the mids button. Usually the mids control the body of the tone as you said but sometimes they can put harshness in sound more than treble in some amps. I guess it depends on how the amp is voices and what are the center frequencies on the controls. Sometimes I wish amps had low mids and high mids controls.
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Thanks Vihar. I have improved the tone already by pushing the presence high and taking the bass way down (even off). I will continue to tweak with the mids and then play a little more with =/- treble and then perhaps roll a little more bass back in.
The mid control on my amp reacts a little as Jorge suggests - it is by far the most dynamic control and the hardest to master. Slight changes make huge differences - actually sometimes I wish it weren't even there:-)
This is all good, folks!
tony
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You're right, the range the mid knob controls is rather wide, and the controls are interactive so if you bring up the mids, some of the highs and lows increase a bit too; the highs actually a little bit more.
Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
It's worth to check out EQ pedals when someone's really anal about these things.
Even the standard, inexpensive BOSS GE-7 can do wonders, just try to operate with cuts rather than boosts, so you don't increase the amount of noise already present in your signal.
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Yes, I have recently bought an EQ pedal just to learn how to get a good EQ. Its on my pedalboard if I need to use it live but my main purpose is to understand better which frequencies I want to change to get my sound - basically I want clarity without ice pick / brightness / harshness.
I have a Maxon Graphic EQ that I got for less than half the price and a heavily modded GE-7 my tech lent me - will decide soon which one will I keep. Having one of this pedals is really an amazing tool for learning about sound even if you just use it at home.
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Hmm... that disease might just be called old age... Originally Posted by tonyknight
I have the same, I can't play in loud groups anymore... I need to hear some nuances nowadays...........
Changing the powertubes in those Hot Rod/Blues amps can make a huge difference btw. I like Silvana's and TADs a lot better then the Chinese or Sovteks.
Sovteks are reliable working horses in these amps, but I never managed to get a good sound out of my BDlx with Sovteks.
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Lol: thanks for making my day. Little Jay. I just don't feel old yet! :-) But there again, my partner thinks my guitars are probably worth more than me in part ex now!
I'll still hold off on the tubes until I figure out the most reasonable action as I agree with you that the Sovteks were great, but just a little hotter and bluer than the Fender standard tubes.
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I've played this very same combo and didn't find it hard to get a wonderful jazzy sound.
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First of all I'd like to say hello to everyone as this is my first post after hanging around a few weeks and learning from the masters here. This place is full of great information!( I don't want to high-jack the post,just want to be polite).
A very important thing that I discovered about these Fender Hot Rod series is that if you play the clean between 1-2 on the volume it's a lot harder to dial in a tone. What helped immensely was putting a lower gain preamp tube in the V1 slot (I used a 12AY7). I was able to turn the amp up to around 4 on the volume ,which was the same volume as 1-2 with the stock 12AX7 preamp tube.However,I found it opened the amp up completely and made the tone controls more usable,to my old tired ears.
I also agree with Little Jay that TAD tubes really sweeten that amp up a ton as well. Good luck in your tone quest ! It's a never ending,fun,and ultimately expensive journey !
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Very good advice, should have remember that one. Thats a very good first post!
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Welcome ceceres. It is a great community we have here and in my experience there are always good people willing to help! Thanks for that advice. I was aware of this solution when I bought my new tubes 18 months ago, but I was not really aware of the advantages of essentially turning the 60W amp into a 30W amp (as was described by the tube distributor). You are right though, it might be an immediate help short of breaking my eardrums with much higher initial volumes! I guess now I'll have to look into those TAD tubes as well.
Loobs - do you recall what settings you had when you had that great jazzy tone?
cheers,
tony
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