ES-335 and Hotrod Deville 410 - match made in hell?

tonyknight · #1 09-02-2011, 12:13 PM

OK, I've broached this elsewhere but still have no resolution so here's a new thread.

Obviously the 335 is a guitar well enough suited for jazz without being a full hollowbody, the HRD-410 tube amp is way too loud for home use. But, I can find tones which are just barely acceptable (read, for me at least, really unacceptable). The tubes are standard Fender, though I do have a set of matched JJ power and pre-amp tubes which I could install. I'd like to have a nice, dark, woody tone and would very much appreciate any suggestions anyone might have. Typically at the moment, I set the amp like so:

vol 2
tbl 4-5
bass 3-4
mid 9
rvb as low as possible to have just a little
pres 0

I'm not sure that it changes anything, but I have tried setting the master to max. I use normally the neck pup and roll vol and tone off to about 7 each. I play close to this pup.

Of course, it could be my technique :-) which in jazz improv is still very beginner level, but I have no problem with chord comping. I usually play with fingers and or just thumb.

Or am I just trying to get an impossible sound out of this amp? I'd like to have a better idea before giving up and selling the amp. I will be adding an archtop soon and am a bit worried that I won't even like that tone through this amp!

Thanks for any advice you can offer,
Cheers,
Tony

jorgemg1984 · #2 09-02-2011, 12:33 PM

IMO most Fender amps need to be modded to sound good for jazz, they are voiced for country / blues. But a lot of people have a different opinion.

lpdeluxe · #3 09-02-2011, 01:32 PM

I plug my 335 into a Fender Bandmaster VM driving a Weber California Ceramic 15. My friends think it's the best sound I've ever had. Click on the link for a picture:
http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p...g?t=1299537528
It has a more versatile tone than the Deville (I tried one of them in the past, and didn't like it). This rig has a sweet top end with a deep bottom and a prominent midrange -- more vocal sounding than other Fenders.

cmajor9 · #4 09-02-2011, 01:56 PM

The Hot Rod series in particular are voiced more for rock/blues and maybe country players. And the smaller 10" speakers won't give the fullest sound. The Twin and Deluxe, both with 12" speakers, and are maybe more "jazz-friendly" (or at least used more often for a traditional jazz guitar sound).

I tried a Fender clone with a 15" speaker one time. Great, warm sound.

Franz 1997 · #5 09-02-2011, 01:57 PM

IMO most Fender amps need to be modded to sound good for jazz

I agree. But a simple modification to the 'tone' stack' - changing 2 components - makes fender amps sound much fuller and 'jazzy'. I won't bore with the details, but anyone interested can pm me.

jorgemg1984 · #6 09-02-2011, 02:25 PM

Exactly, just changing the tone stack (very easy and cheap mod) will improve any fender amp greatly. People are always selling amps that are too dark or too bright and its so easy to change that.

About your amp I am not too crazy about 10 speakers. I would rather have a 2x12 than a 4x10.

Little Jay · #7 09-02-2011, 04:40 PM

Try this: put all tone controls, including presence on maximum (wide open). Give it some volume too, around 3-4. (if it gets too noisy/hissy roll off the treble a little bit). Then adjust tone and volume from your guitar.

It works for my Blues Deluxe and my ES 333. A nice open, no more bass-heavy tone, with nice woodyness if you roll back the highs a bit. I know the Hot Rod series is voiced a little different, but it's worth a try I think

tonyknight · #8 09-03-2011, 04:43 AM

Thanks guys.

Little Jay, I tried your suggestion and it certainly isn't worse than where I was at - even a bit better much to my surprise :-) But I had to roll the guitar tone off to around 4-5. Not bad on neck pup or with both. I guess I'll leave it there for a while.

The 4x10 comments are interesting and logical (before this amp I usually used 2x12 or 4x12 cabs, though again, more for rock and blues). It's interesting then that some of the really nice sounding jazz amps (Henriksen for example) use 10" speakers, I think.

I'll look into the mods idea and then go to plan B which would be to sell off everything I own (except my D55 acoustic) and get a couple of nice archtops and a jazz amp :-)

Cheers,
tony

Jake Hanlon · #9 09-03-2011, 05:18 AM

i played a 335 for that amp for the better part of the year, got a great sound and the only reason why I ditched it was because it was not practical enough for a jazz setting due to it's size. I used it in a studio session and I couldn't have been happier with the sound.

The Pres at 0 I think might be the problem, you might want to experiment with it at around 11:00. Put the master vol below the regular vol just a little bit, that seems to warm her up. you don't need any bass on these amps, all modern fender amps are bass end heavy imo

jorgemg1984 · #10 09-03-2011, 05:50 AM

The Henriksen has 10 and 12 versions. According to almost all reviews I have read the 12 is much fuller but I never tried the 10. One of the most common mods on Princeton Reverb is upgrading from 10 to 12.

If you go to a good tech that knows about modding amps (not just a guy that knows about repairing) he will be able to help you for sure. If you read about it online a lot of jazz guys tweak their amps. Give Franz a pm, he will help you with the tone stack. Fenders are very good amps for jazz when you mod them, much cheaper then selling it and buying a "jazz amp".

I have played several amps with presence on zero with no problem at all. I actually feel Fenders are treble heavy not bass heavy, sometimes I even feel the bass is a little loose (maybe due to open cabinet, output transformer or in this case 10 speakers). Its funny how people hear so differently

tonyknight · #11 09-03-2011, 05:57 AM

Jake - excellent advice too. I've just been playing around with a higher pres and little by little I'm getting closer to an acceptable sound. Did you ever play full bodied archtops through your amp?

Jorge - we all play differently and hear differently - that's what makes so many of the threads here so much funm especially when a few get so bent out of shape :-) For most of us, though, it's a life-long learning and seeking experience, trying to play better, get better tone, listening to great advice, putting aside advice which doesn't work (for each person of course). I'll see what Franz has to say and go one step at a time.

I'm totally with Jake that this amp is too big, too heavy, and too loud for my needs today, and will probably end up (eventually) going for something much smaller - but as you guys say, with a 12" or even 15" speaker. But first I'd like to just get that really sweet archtop to get a better idea of what I'd be looking for amp-wise, that's why I'd like to persevere with the HRD for a while longer at least.
Cheers,
Tony

jorgemg1984 · #12 09-03-2011, 06:03 AM

Yes find a good guitar first and then find a amp that suits her, that's the way!

BTW do you gig or its just for home practice?

tonyknight · #13 09-03-2011, 06:09 AM

Jorge - I used to gig. now I play just for my lonesome and teach rock, blues and folk. But a weird neurological disease which hit me a few years ago makes all of that too noisy for my head to handle. In short, that's why I'm looking for a nice, smooth, easy to handle jazz tone! Then the technique will hopefully still come!

That said, I'd give up one of my old guitars to gig again!
tony

Jake Hanlon · #14 09-03-2011, 06:12 AM

I use a ER112 Henriksen as my main amp and it's fantastic. I haven't owned a fullbody guitar in many years so I couldn't say.

Vihar · #15 09-03-2011, 08:00 AM

Tony, if I were you and wanted a rather dark tone but with enough note definition, I would rather turn the treble down to around 9 o'clock (darkness) and as Jake suggested, bring the presence back up to around noon (note definition).

Then you could tailor the body of the tone with the mid knob, and the low end "oomph" with the bass control.

But the "harshness/softness" control on a regular guitar amp is definitely the treble knob, because it covers the 2 - 5kHz frequency range.

jorgemg1984 · #16 09-03-2011, 08:51 AM

In some amps I notice the harshness is also in the mids button. Usually the mids control the body of the tone as you said but sometimes they can put harshness in sound more than treble in some amps. I guess it depends on how the amp is voices and what are the center frequencies on the controls. Sometimes I wish amps had low mids and high mids controls.

tonyknight · #17 09-03-2011, 09:00 AM

Thanks Vihar. I have improved the tone already by pushing the presence high and taking the bass way down (even off). I will continue to tweak with the mids and then play a little more with =/- treble and then perhaps roll a little more bass back in.

The mid control on my amp reacts a little as Jorge suggests - it is by far the most dynamic control and the hardest to master. Slight changes make huge differences - actually sometimes I wish it weren't even there:-)

This is all good, folks!

tony

Vihar · #18 09-03-2011, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

In some amps I notice the harshness is also in the mids button. Usually the mids control the body of the tone as you said but sometimes they can put harshness in sound more than treble in some amps. I guess it depends on how the amp is voices and what are the center frequencies on the controls. Sometimes I wish amps had low mids and high mids controls.

You're right, the range the mid knob controls is rather wide, and the controls are interactive so if you bring up the mids, some of the highs and lows increase a bit too; the highs actually a little bit more.

It's worth to check out EQ pedals when someone's really anal about these things.
Even the standard, inexpensive BOSS GE-7 can do wonders, just try to operate with cuts rather than boosts, so you don't increase the amount of noise already present in your signal.

jorgemg1984 · #19 09-03-2011, 09:37 AM

Yes, I have recently bought an EQ pedal just to learn how to get a good EQ. Its on my pedalboard if I need to use it live but my main purpose is to understand better which frequencies I want to change to get my sound - basically I want clarity without ice pick / brightness / harshness.

I have a Maxon Graphic EQ that I got for less than half the price and a heavily modded GE-7 my tech lent me - will decide soon which one will I keep. Having one of this pedals is really an amazing tool for learning about sound even if you just use it at home.

Little Jay · #20 09-03-2011, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyknight

But a weird neurological disease which hit me a few years ago makes all of that too noisy for my head to handle.

Hmm... that disease might just be called old age...

I have the same, I can't play in loud groups anymore... I need to hear some nuances nowadays...........

Changing the powertubes in those Hot Rod/Blues amps can make a huge difference btw. I like Silvana's and TADs a lot better then the Chinese or Sovteks.

Sovteks are reliable working horses in these amps, but I never managed to get a good sound out of my BDlx with Sovteks.

tonyknight · #21 09-03-2011, 12:46 PM

Lol: thanks for making my day. Little Jay. I just don't feel old yet! :-) But there again, my partner thinks my guitars are probably worth more than me in part ex now!

I'll still hold off on the tubes until I figure out the most reasonable action as I agree with you that the Sovteks were great, but just a little hotter and bluer than the Fender standard tubes.

Loobs · #22 09-03-2011, 02:05 PM

I've played this very same combo and didn't find it hard to get a wonderful jazzy sound.

ceceres4 · #23 09-03-2011, 07:07 PM

First of all I'd like to say hello to everyone as this is my first post after hanging around a few weeks and learning from the masters here. This place is full of great information!( I don't want to high-jack the post,just want to be polite).
A very important thing that I discovered about these Fender Hot Rod series is that if you play the clean between 1-2 on the volume it's a lot harder to dial in a tone. What helped immensely was putting a lower gain preamp tube in the V1 slot (I used a 12AY7). I was able to turn the amp up to around 4 on the volume ,which was the same volume as 1-2 with the stock 12AX7 preamp tube.However,I found it opened the amp up completely and made the tone controls more usable,to my old tired ears.
I also agree with Little Jay that TAD tubes really sweeten that amp up a ton as well. Good luck in your tone quest ! It's a never ending,fun,and ultimately expensive journey !

jorgemg1984 · #24 09-03-2011, 07:11 PM

Very good advice, should have remember that one. Thats a very good first post!

tonyknight · #25 09-04-2011, 02:50 AM

Welcome ceceres. It is a great community we have here and in my experience there are always good people willing to help! Thanks for that advice. I was aware of this solution when I bought my new tubes 18 months ago, but I was not really aware of the advantages of essentially turning the 60W amp into a 30W amp (as was described by the tube distributor). You are right though, it might be an immediate help short of breaking my eardrums with much higher initial volumes! I guess now I'll have to look into those TAD tubes as well.

Loobs - do you recall what settings you had when you had that great jazzy tone?
cheers,
tony

jorgemg1984 · #26 09-04-2011, 04:45 AM

I am not very technical but changing that tube from 12AX7 to 12AY7 wont cut the power in half, it will just give you a little more clean headroom (i think...). To get the half power thing I think you have to turn off two power tubes. But there are people here that can explain this much better.

Franz 1997 · #27 09-04-2011, 05:05 AM

Hi Tony
Jorge is right, the 12AY7 substitution will just give more headroom - 'tho it's probably a good idea anyway. I've just had a quick look at the HRD schematic, and it's different from most ''classic'' fender amps. In those classic amps, the tone control section is after the first preamp stage, but in the HRD it's after the second stage, as in a marshall amp. This isn't necessarily a bad thing for a ''hot rod'' sound, but it does mean that the controls will have much less overall effect than in a classic fender amp tone stack ( which has very wide adjustability)
. I'd suggest that you try the 12AY7, as it will make the best of the circuit you have, and won't necessarily cut the output power at all.
As you know, I think you might be happier if you decide to try a different amp; we can all drive ourselves mad trying to get something to work that just isn't built for the job, and looking at the HRD schematic, this amp seems designed primarily for distortion sounds, with its ''drive'' circuitry. Just my opinion; I've never owned one...........and I know it seems to work for some members here.
cheers

tonyknight · #28 09-04-2011, 06:38 AM

You are both right, I'm sure. Where I was coming from was information given on the Eurotubes site regarding the JJ tubes. They say this:

"Fender HRD 6V6 OptionPrice: $62.00 Description: A pair of the JJ 6V6's to drop the output to about 30 watts along with three JJ ECC83S's with one balanced for the phase inverter in V3. These will reduce the harsh mids, the brittle highs and make the drive channel much more usable with less overall output".
Of course, when I actually ordered my replacement pre- and power-tubes, I was looking for a 'better' blues tone, so I ordered this:

"Fender HRD Gold Pin OptionPrice: $97.50 Description: Are you looking for the smoothest and richest tone possible? This kit uses a matched pair of the JJ 6L6GC's along with three gold pin ECC83S's with one of them balanced for the phase inverter in V3. A great way to go if you're after a Carlos or Eric Johnson type tone!"

I probably shot myself in the foot!

Franz 1997 · #29 09-04-2011, 07:22 AM

Dunno about that, but putting 6v6s in a 6L6 amp mismatches the output impedance by about 80%, pushes up the B+ voltage due to reduced PT current draw and puts 470+volts on the plate of a 6V6 which even in the worst-case silverface CBS deluxes only got up to 440. Will it also reduce the output? Sure...
Gold Pin Option? why match a phase inverter valve when all phase inverters are intrinsically unbalanced anyway?
Feels like smoke & mirrors to me... or do I mean ''marketing".........Anyway at least you didn't risk damage to the amp with 6v6's. Good call!

jorgemg1984 · #30 09-04-2011, 07:29 AM

And tubes in my experience cant make that dramatic change in tone. They all sound different and they do change your tone (for some people a lot for others a little) but they wont turn your amp into a perfect sweet jazz amp because your stock circuit is not designed for that. You still have the same amp in the end you know? I did a lot of mods in my Blues Junior (some Bill M others mine) and you can certainly change the way the amp sounds but ultimately its a small 15w amp. And you have a big 4x10 60w no matter how much you mod it. Marketing is just too powerful these days, learned that the hard way sometimes.