For a warmer, less acoustic sound should I be looking at a laminate build?

Loobs · #1 08-30-2011, 04:55 PM

My favourite sounds are probably a mixture of Bill Frisell (yes, Tele I know), early Benson (Benson's Cookbook especially), Metheny, Jonathan Kreisberg, Barney Kessell, Grant Green, and also Steve Howe from Yes. Also Jim Hall. I guess I like a rounder, warmer sound than a lot of the big archtops I play which to me sound closer to acoustic guitars than electrics, and pretty bright. Should I be looking at archtops with a laminate construction?

Sorry if this question has been done to death.

Vihar · #2 08-30-2011, 04:56 PM

No. You should just turn the treble down.

Loobs · #3 08-30-2011, 05:00 PM

Very informative. Thanks.

Vihar · #4 08-30-2011, 05:01 PM

You're welcome. That's all there is to what you asked.

fep · #5 08-30-2011, 05:02 PM

If you have access to trying amplified archtop guitars side by side (i.e. a shop with lots of archtops)... compare mounted pu vs floating pu. I think you'll find that has a big impact on the sound and brightness of the guitar amplified, I think more so than laminate vs. solid top.

Acoustic unamplified sound, that's were the top becomes more important.

Loobs · #6 08-30-2011, 05:03 PM

Is it really though? I'm rolling my eyes. You're telling me that the only difference between the sound of a carved/solid top archtop and one with laminate is in the treble, and that can be changed with reducing the treble on the amp? To my ears, they sound quite different.

Seems like most of the players I listed played/play 175 (laminate) type guitars, right?

fep · #7 08-30-2011, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loobs

Seems like most of the players I listed played/play 175 (laminate) type guitars, right?

Solid tops feedback much more readily, I can't speak for those players but if I did play a laminate that is why I'd play a laminate in a live performance setting.

Loobs · #8 08-30-2011, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fep

If you have access to trying amplified archtop guitars side by side (i.e. a shop with lots of archtops)... compare mounted pu vs floating pu. I think you'll find that has a big impact on the sound and brightness of the guitar amplified, I think more so than laminate vs. solid top.

Acoustic unamplified sound, that's were the top becomes more important.

Thanks. Unfortunately where I live playing a good selection of archtops isn't really a possibility.

Vihar · #9 08-30-2011, 05:06 PM

Also, if you have access to a computer with any decent sound card/interface and a DAW with a proper EQ installed, try plugging in your guitar, record it direct and fiddle with the EQ a little. It will teach you more about guitar sound and audio in general than any pseudo intellectual blah you've ever read about guitar woods.

Loobs · #10 08-30-2011, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fep

Solid tops feedback much more readily, I can't speak for those players but if I did play a laminate that is why I'd play a laminate in a live performance setting.

Gotcha. Thanks. I'm trying to feel it out a bit before making a trip to play a wider selection of guitars. Internet clips of these guitars aren't that much help at all. I need to play them.

Vihar · #11 08-30-2011, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loobs

Is it really though? I'm rolling my eyes. You're telling me that the only difference between the sound of a carved/solid top archtop and one with laminate is in the treble, and that can be changed with reducing the treble on the amp? To my ears, they sound quite different.

Seems like most of the players I listed played/play 175 (laminate) type guitars, right?

That's the only major audible difference between two electric archtops that are equipped with the same style pickups.

Loobs · #12 08-30-2011, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vihar

Also, if you have access to a computer with any decent sound card/interface and a DAW with a proper EQ installed, try plugging in your guitar, record it direct and fiddle with the EQ a little. It will teach you more about guitar sound and audio in general than any pseudo intellectual blah you've ever read about guitar woods.

So are you calling the majority of what is discussed on this forum a waste of breath? I'm not interested in what extensive EQ'ing of a recorded track could do for the sound of the guitar, that is totally beyond my point. You seem to have totally misunderstood my post. And for the record, having played for nearly 20 years I understand plenty about guitar sounds and audio in general, and what EQ can do to a recording.

Loobs · #13 08-30-2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vihar

That's the only major audible difference between two electric archtops that are equipped with the same style pickups.

Hmmmm...so why do so many people say that laminated woods produce a more desirable amplified tone?

Vihar · #14 08-30-2011, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loobs

So are you calling the majority of what is discussed on this forum a waste of breath?

Exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loobs

And for the record, having played for nearly 20 years I understand plenty about guitar sounds and audio in general, and what EQ can do to a recording.

Well, I'm glad to hear that, but with all that knowledge you still came here and asked your question.

Vihar · #15 08-30-2011, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loobs

Hmmmm...so why do so many people say that laminated woods produce a more desirable amplified tone?

I have no idea. You should ask the ones who said that. I'm sure people like Les Paul would tell you they're nuts.

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #16 08-30-2011, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loobs

Thanks. Unfortunately where I live playing a good selection of archtops isn't really a possibility.

There's no decent store selling archtops in London? Where would you have to go, then?

Loobs · #17 08-30-2011, 05:21 PM

I mean, there is a store but it doesn't have a huge selection. A 3 hour/expensive train journey would take me to a much better selection.

Loobs · #18 08-30-2011, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vihar

I have no idea. You should ask the ones who said that. I'm sure people like Les Paul would tell you they're nuts.

Roger Sadowsky?

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #19 08-30-2011, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loobs

I mean, there is a store but it doesn't have a huge selection. A 3 hour/expensive train journey would take me to a much better selection.

Oh, I assumed that in a city as big as London...

Anyway, my nutshell descriptions of tone are:

Laminate (say ES-175) -- a darker tone
carved & floating pickup (my guitar) -- more of an acoustic tone
carved with mounted pickups -- somewhere in between.

Of course, there is a lot of variation in construction, and so in tone, but that's my nutshell descriptions. Anyone have their own?

Loobs · #20 08-30-2011, 05:37 PM

That sounds like what I had in mind. You'd think that London would have a better selection, true. There is one store that caters for Jazz players but their selection isn't amazing.

Vihar · #21 08-30-2011, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loobs

Roger Sadowsky?

I don't know him and his views, but I think people like Bob Benedetto or Bill Lawrence are open minded in that way. Business is a whole other thing though.

Stackabones · #22 08-30-2011, 05:46 PM

All this is futile, for tone is in the ears -- not in the eyes.

You can read all the specs you want, and seek out all the advice from all walks of life, but nothing will give you any info like your ears will. Just because you read up on a guitar, doesn't mean you'll make an educated guess about it. At best, it's a toss of the coin.

If you can't find any archies in your city, then check online retailers' return policies. You'll never see the right one, but you will definitely hear it.

fep · #23 08-30-2011, 05:46 PM

I have a shop near me with decent selection of archtops.

http://www.buffalobrosguitars.com/archtops.html

I had my heart set on a solid carved top with a floating pu. So they set me up in a private room with a Fender Deluxe and I tried various guitars with the same amp set up.

And... they sounded different, it was obvious to my ear that it wasn't just the tone settings on the amp as I didn't touch those settings once I got it initial set up.

The guitars I tried, there was a noticeable difference between whether the pu was mounted or not. And I was trying Eastman vs Eastman and Heritage vs. Heritage and Gibsons, and Gretch etc. Definitely not a perfect test as the pu where not the same. But the guitars with the floating pu where across the board brighter sounding than the ones with the mounted pu, this was 100% true for the guitars I tested

At least to my ear.

Oh yeah, turns out I didn't like the sound of a floating pu, it was too bright for me. I would have never known if I wasn't able to do this side by side comparisons.

lpdeluxe · #24 08-30-2011, 05:48 PM

I think you'll be happiest if you forget about "laminated vs solid" and all the other baggage. Just play a lot of guitars and get the one that does it for you, and ignore its supposed legacy.

Loobs · #25 08-30-2011, 05:51 PM

Thanks for all the advice guys.

I have to admit that this (perhaps with the tone rolled off more) is very close to the sound in my head. Warm but still has that presence. Sounds more of an electric guitar than acoustic to me.

YouTube Video

Loobs · #26 08-30-2011, 05:54 PM

Was Pat Martino playing a 175 on the early stuff - El Hombre - for example?

Also, according to the video some of the 175s feature mahogany construction instead of maple...

Sorry if these questions are n00bish. For the longest time I've been a solid-body player...

mr. beaumont · #27 08-30-2011, 05:56 PM

I do think you pretty much answered your own question in the first post.

For the most part though, anything with a routed neck humbucker, a slightly rolled back tone knob, and a good amp will get you there. That gives you a lot of options...

If you find that most of your favorites play a 175, that's not a bad place to start.

Vihar · #28 08-30-2011, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loobs

Was Pat Martino playing a 175 on the early stuff - El Hombre - for example?

I'm pretty sure it was his Gibson Les Paul Custom his father bought him as a kid.

Here's an interview with him where he talks about it briefly: Pat Martino | Vintage Guitar® magazine

"Was that Les Paul Custom the one you played in the first phase of your professional career?

Yes, I played it for many years."

EDIT: Nope. I was wrong with assuming that, since the LP Custom got stolen in 1965. It was a Johnny Smith model on El Hombre, so the album cover is correct as well (rare case, lol).

Loobs · #29 08-30-2011, 06:08 PM

I think it'd be hard to go wrong. How do you guys find the current day 175s?

Loobs · #30 08-30-2011, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vihar

I'm pretty sure it was his Gibson Les Paul Custom his father bought him as a kid.

Here's an interview with him where he talks about it briefly: Pat Martino | Vintage Guitar® magazine

"Was that Les Paul Custom the one you played in the first phase of your professional career?

Yes, I played it for many years."

Heh, interesting. Thanks. Sorry if I came off as rude in earlier posts, btw.