For a warmer, less acoustic sound should I be looking at a laminate build?

**Loobs** · 09-02-2011, 03:52 AM

Yeah, cheers Jorge. That's great advice too. I want to play a 175, hopefully I can find somewhere and go play one this weekend.

**tonyknight** · 09-02-2011, 04:23 AM

Hey Loobs, you said something in your mini-review which really caught my attention. You played all the guitars through a Deville 410. That's my amp, which I loved when I bought it for playing blues (Tele and ES-335). Now that I'm playing pretty much only jazz and acoustic guitar, I have been getting really aggravated by its tone. I know that the ES-335 is a great compromise guitar of choice for jazz musicians, but I have absolutely failed to get the tone I'm looking for with this amp (similar to your ideas and I'd throw in Kenny Burrell' sound too). Therefore, I'm resigned to selling it :-)

I know it's not the main theme of this thread, but it pertains directly to electric tone (but yes, any archtop I buy will have to have excellent acoustic tone toom according to my personal taste!) so if any of you guys have any thoughts on this choice of amp in this setting I'd appreciate it. It might also have had an impact on the way Loobs experienced those guitars.

tony

**Loobs** · 09-02-2011, 07:26 AM

I'd say a tube amp like this is probably less 'transparent' than a solid-state amp geared towards jazz guitars/acoustics - which are designed to impart as little sonic characteristic upon the sound of the guitar as possible. Still nothing wrong with it, in fact I really like the sound of a tube amp with an archtop. Maybe you want something darker voiced? They are bright amps.

**Loobs** · 09-02-2011, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Wow this is a very long discussion. Just throwing my 2 cents. Some things have a HUGE impact on your sound - pickups, speakers and picks are probably the ones that most affect your tone in my experience A lot of times when people don't like a guitar or an amp what they need is a good pickup or a good speaker. Using different picks is also something that immediately changes your sound.

There are tons of other things that make SUBTLE changes in your sound. Mounted or floating pickups, carved solid laminate, cables, strings, etc - its endless! Some people like Eric Johnson or David Gilmour hear every nuance on their sound, others simply don't care. SRV once was recording with 14 amps or something like that, one of the amps had a problem and he immediately said that amp wasn't working. I hear a difference in cables but there a lot of things that I cant tell the difference. I remember a lot of people debating on this forum tailpieces - metal or ebony and then someone posted a Benedetto article where he said you couldn't hear a difference on blindfold test...

So... choose a guitar that you really like. Not only because it sounds good but because you love to play it. Then put a really good pickup and get a good amp. Oh and if you play live beware that a lot of great archtops feedback a lot, laminates are usually much better for live usage. This is also valid for amps. get something that sounds good on stage not in your room. In my case I also like a more electric warmer sound, I don't want my sound to be too acoustic. My Guild X-500 and my Jazzmaster Ultralight are perfect for that. I will probably sell my Henriksen because its too acoustic (among other things). Personally I think both 175 and GB are too expensive bought new.

Oh and don't forget about practicing... Ben Monder said he hated his AS when he got it and then he just practiced so obsessively that he got used to it. And he gets an amazing modern sound out of it...

I honestly can't hear much difference between different picks. The feedback thing does concern me. Even at relatively quiet volumes yesterday, I could tell these guitars were verging on feedback.

**jorgemg1984** · 09-02-2011, 07:41 AM

Thats my point. I hear a huge difference in picks, a lot of people don't. Everyone hears in a different way. I even hear differently on different days or even in different periods of the day so.. Guys like Kurt Rosenwinkel recorded amazing stuff with cheap Epiphones. How many great players gig with a Benedetto or a L5? Not that much. How many great jazz pleyers even travel with their amps? They usually travel with reliable guitars and play with venue amps.

If you have the money and want to play at home buy a 10k archtop, I am sure they are worth it. If you want to gig buy a guitar you can trust and with a good feeling, something that can make you play better in a concert. If you find the guitar dark or bright you can change pickups or amps or use an EQ pedal. If you don't like to play with it its much more tough to change that, maybe a setup...

This is Kurt playing with just his guitar and a Twin Reverb someone gave him. Still sounds like him and he is not using his whole crazy pedal chain and his heavily modified Twin.

Oh and please try a Guild X 500 IMO a great guitar, usually cheaper than a 175

**Loobs** · 09-02-2011, 09:08 AM

I value your opinions. I am not looking for (nor can I afford) an 'expensive' archtop. Anything over £2000 is out of the question. Eastman are looking like the best option right now. I was impressed and I'm sure within their range I can find the ideal model.

**jorgemg1984** · 09-02-2011, 09:15 AM

Never tried one but always heard great things about them. BTW which amp will you use?

**Bill C** · 09-02-2011, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Loobs

I value your opinions. I am not looking for (nor can I afford) an 'expensive' archtop. Anything over £2000 is out of the question. Eastman are looking like the best option right now. I was impressed and I'm sure within their range I can find the ideal model.

Have you seen this one? - coming soon apparently and it's a laminate ...

Eastman AR175CE?J????????Eastman?

You might also consider looking around for a D'Aquisto Jazz Line, another nice laminate that would fit your budget

**jorgemg1984** · 09-02-2011, 09:33 AM

Or this one

Guild X 170 Guitar | eBay

**Loobs** · 09-02-2011, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Bill C

Have you seen this one? - coming soon apparently and it's a laminate ...

Eastman AR175CE?J????????Eastman?

You might also consider looking around for a D'Aquisto Jazz Line, another nice laminate that would fit your budget

Yeah, both are on my radar!

**Loobs** · 09-02-2011, 10:29 AM

Oh man, if that Eastman came with 2 pickups....

**lpdeluxe** · 09-02-2011, 02:18 PM

Here's what I plug my 335 into: a Fender Bandmaster VM driving a Weber California Ceramic 15. My signature sound, and under $900.

**Loobs** · 09-02-2011, 05:56 PM

Nice.

**Loobs** · 09-03-2011, 03:09 PM

Played a nice new ES-175 today. Pretty nice guitar. Not sure I preferred it to the 'carved top' guitar I played though. I also found the bridge pickup extraneous, at least for jazz. I guess the guitar I'll be buying will have a single pickup. I'd also say the Eastman's were just as good.

**Jazzpunk** · 09-03-2011, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Loobs

Played a nice new ES-175 today. Pretty nice guitar. Not sure I preferred it to the 'carved top' guitar I played though. I also found the bridge pickup extraneous, at least for jazz. I guess the guitar I'll be buying will have a single pickup. I'd also say the Eastman's were just as good.

So, from your experience so far, would you say that buying any guitar from say a Les Paul to a Gibson Super 400 and simply rolling the tone knob down will give you the sound you are looking for or would you say that different guitars have different tonal qualities to them?

Which guitar are you leaning towards at this point?

**rpguitar** · 09-03-2011, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by Loobs

My favourite sounds are probably a mixture of Bill Frisell (yes, Tele I know), early Benson (Benson's Cookbook especially), Metheny, Jonathan Kreisberg, Barney Kessell, Grant Green, and also Steve Howe from Yes. Also Jim Hall.

I thought I'd revisit the first post in this long thread. The guitars used by the fellows you list are, well, all over the place. What does that tell you/us?

Frisell - Tele of late, also Kleins, also Gibson ES-446
Benson - early tones from Ibanez Johnny Smith
Metheny - ES-175 then Ibanez signature models
Kreisberg - ES-175
Kessel - Gibson signature model, Gibson ES-350CC
Green - Gibson ES-330, Gibson L-7CE
Howe - ES-175 but also a zillion others (I have his book)
Hall - ES-175, D'Aquisto lam top, Sadowsky signature model

It tells me you like the guitar players, not their instruments!

**Loobs** · 09-03-2011, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

So, from your experience so far, would you say that buying any guitar from say a Les Paul to a Gibson Super 400 and simply rolling the tone knob down will give you the sound you are looking for or would you say that different guitars have different tonal qualities to them?

Which guitar are you leaning towards at this point?

Those are good questions. The tonal characteristics depend on whether the guitar is amplified or not, how loud it is, the amp you're using. There is definitely something to the sound (even amplified) of a guitar with a solid wood top over a laminated top. While the 175 sounded thick and round and like I imagined it to, it sounded more electric than anything I've played that has a solid top. To be honest, I think a 335 can get 80% of the way there.

It can't ape the sound of an archtop with a solid carved top though, imo. It does sound more resonant, more complex and more acoustic. It's a different sound. I do really like the sound of a 175, but I think after playing some nice non-laminated boxes before it I was somewhat spoiled. I also think liking a guitar's plugged in sound or not is only part of the experience. I wasn't that into the feel of the Gibson, the aesthetics of it. I do think it's a great sound, but maybe not necessarily what I'm looking for. I dunno, it's hard to say. I did really enjoy playing the guitars that I played the other day. And the Gibson didn't seem anymore resilient to feedback than the Eastmans/Heritage. In fact the Heritage with it's slimline body seemed to cope best with louder volumes. The 175 howled quite easily.

I dunno man, the search continues. I'm sure when I play 'the one' I'll know it. Maybe I need to think more about what I'm playing than what I'm playing it on though? Maybe I'm more in love with the romanticism of finding the ideal jazz box over bettering my skills as a jazz player? Surely if I concentrate on the latter I'll sound jazzy on anything. Know what I mean?

The differences in sound especially plugged in are a lot more subtle than I was expecting. That being said, a 175 still sounded like a 175, and the solid-wood archtops still sounded like that. I do also like the idea of getting something with a carved top - the Eastmans had a really nice acoustic sound and that'd be cool for playing late at night without disturbing my roomies. It's not like I'm going to use this guitar for playing loud in my other band - a noisy alt/indie rock group...I'll let my LP Special cover that.

I think if I had to go and run out and buy one I've played right now it'd probably be.....all of them, apart from the posh Uptown Eastman 17" box.

**Loobs** · 09-03-2011, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

I thought I'd revisit the first post in this long thread. The guitars used by the fellows you list are, well, all over the place. What does that tell you/us?

Frisell - Tele of late, also Kleins, also Gibson ES-446
Benson - early tones from Ibanez Johnny Smith
Metheny - ES-175 then Ibanez signature models
Kreisberg - ES-175
Kessel - Gibson signature model, Gibson ES-350CC
Green - Gibson ES-330, Gibson L-7CE
Howe - ES-175 but also a zillion others (I have his book)
Hall - ES-175, D'Aquisto lam top, Sadowsky signature model

It tells me you like the guitar players, not their instruments!

Yeah. I think a lot of them cover similar tonal ground though. I want the Howe book!

**jorgemg1984** · 09-03-2011, 08:09 PM

Wow I like a 335 but I don't think you could get 80% close to a 175. They sound very different. And I also think playability is very important because it changes the way you play and therefore the way you sound. An 175 has a very different feeling from a 335 and so it makes you play in a different way.

I play a lot with a good 335 copy because its very practical for gigs. I had my archtop on my tech for several months and I was really getting crazy, I NEEDED my archtop. Not so much the sound but the feeling the guitar. Now that I have it again I only practice with it but I don't take it to most gigs because its a valuable guitar - so I take the 335. And I always need some time to get used to the way the 335 feels. And they sound very different, both good, but different.

**Loobs** · 09-03-2011, 08:21 PM

Maybe 80% close was an exaggeration. Let's say half way there? Heh. I know what you're saying, but I think the 335 can do a more than passable jazz tone.

Let me say that it can get way closer to the sound of a 175 than it can something with a floating pickup and solid spruce top?

**jorgemg1984** · 09-03-2011, 08:35 PM

Yes, 50% seems more accurate

And yes you can get very good jazz sounds from a 335, Rosenwinkel and Monder prove that everyday! Also agree on the last sentence, a 175 is more "electric" (which I like) and a solid floating arhcotp is more "acoustic", so a 335 will get much closer to the first one.

But I sometimes feel a 335 is compromise. Good for versatility but doesn't excel at rock or at jazz. I really miss my archtop even at "modern" gigs with loads of hall reverb and delay.

**AZanshin** · 09-04-2011, 02:53 PM

Wow this thread hurts my head and is now changing my decision o my new archtop purchase. I wanted to get the Eastman AR503CE which is a carved top but with lam back and sides, according to this thread this won't give me the thick electric sound i want.

This is making me consider the Eastman AR403CE a fully laminate. But at the same time I don't want to buy a guitar that sounds the same as my epiphone sheraton 2

TH · 09-04-2011, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by AZanshin

Wow this thread hurts my head and is now changing my decision o my new archtop purchase.

Turn off the advice. You're talking about something that you will have your own opinions on. Can't you find somewhere that you can try them out? You owe yourself that, no matter how much trouble it puts you to. Anyone can make a good argument, you're going to make a potentially life long decision based on the very personal option of someone you don't even know if you can trust?
Try them out yourself. Don't make your head hurt unnecessarily.
David

**Vihar** · 09-04-2011, 03:07 PM

AZanshin, I think if you just like the looks of the carverd top Eastman better, you shouldn't be ashamed getting it, even if it won't give you a better tone than the other ones.

**Loobs** · 09-04-2011, 03:12 PM

I dunno if it doesn't 'excel' at either. I think it can do great sounds, especially for rock. Maybe it's not the #1 choice for a straight up jazz machine though, if that's all you're doing.