For a warmer, less acoustic sound should I be looking at a laminate build?

[rpguitar]

I still hope that players still hear what they're playing too. lol

I appreciate your post rpguitar, but if those "dramatic" differences in "feel" you're talking about are not audible in the sound of the guitar then they are irrelevant in this discussion...

First of all, Guitar A has the carved top. Am I right? I would also add that if you have routed pickups in the first place, the top difference is less dramatic. The biggest difference by far is with an acoustic carved archtop guitar using a floating pickup, versus an electric laminated archtop guitar with a routed-in pickup. The difference is large because the former is intended to be an acoustic instrument, and you are amplifying it, whereas the latter is intended to be only an electric instrument with "some" acoustic properties due to its hollow construction.

Anyway, of course players hear what they are playing. But it's totally, completely different than listening passively while someone else plays. There is an interaction with the audible sound that only occurs when one is actually producing it. What you hear feeds back into your mind and fingers, and leads you along a continuum of sound-production that hopefully approximates music.

Anyway, I'm really not sure what we're arguing about, so I'll just end with the half-hearted caveat that "to me" () there are both audible and tactile differences among the various flavors of archtop guitar. In fact, every single guitar feels and sounds different to me when I play it. I'd venture a guess that most guitarists would agree, otherwise we wouldn't obsess over this topic endlessly as we do.

[Jazzpunk]

Two different kinds of pickups. But even that way, I doubt you would be able to tell which is which in a blind test.

But anyway, let's try it. I recorded a simple phrase twice, let's see if you can tell which guitar has a laminate top and which one is the carved spruce top. Same kind of body mounted pickup, same set of .012 gauge flatwound strings.

Here they are:

Guitar A

Guitar B

Well your bias is clear throughout the thread so now I think you are trying to trick me lol. Honestly it just sounds like the same guitar with the EQ settings changed (Example A being obviously the brighter of the two examples). Both examples sound pretty thin for archtops. Did you mic the amp or go directly into your sound card? If it is indeed two different guitars than you proved my point that there will be an audible difference.

Just out of curiosity, if you believe that all guitars no matter the size or materials sound exactly the same, why do you think that professional luthiers disagree? Do you think they are making it up? Do you think it is a conspiracy?

[Jazzpunk]

I think you'll be happiest if you forget about "laminated vs solid" and all the other baggage. Just play a lot of guitars and get the one that does it for you, and ignore its supposed legacy.

That's good advice. If the OP finds a good ES 175 it's not a bad choice though!

[Jazzpunk]

And again, my examples closed out the pickup differences, because it wouldn't be a fair comparison if we added another - possibly much more significant - variable to the picture, when we're comparing the sonic differences of electric guitar top materials.

I know it's pissing against the wind to try to break down myths like this, but if it opens the eyes of at least a few more people, it was worth it. And it sure is fun (yes Brwnhornet, it is fun ).

I definitely agree that this discussion is pissing in the wind but it's fun talking guitars so hey, piss away lol!

I agree that pick ups make a big difference but an 18" spruce top and a 14" laminate thinline guitar will sound different. I have a 17" thinline spruce top and a 16" laminate top guitar and they sound very different acoustically as well as plugged in.

[Vihar]

Well your bias is clear throughout the thread so now I think you are trying to trick me lol. Honestly it just sounds like the same guitar with the EQ settings changed (Example A being obviously the brighter of the two examples). Both examples sound pretty thin for archtops. Did you mic the amp or go directly into your sound card?

So you can't tell which one is the laminate top and which one is the spruce top?

The samples were recorded with a Fender Deluxe Reverb RI going into a Beyerdynamic M88, into the interface. No reverb was used, other than the room sound because the mic was placed about 80 cm (2.6 feet) away, to avoid the direct style sound and the proximity effect of the close micing.

If it is indeed two different guitars than you proved my point that there will be an audible difference.

So if it happened to be the same guitar, your point has failed? Above you were still saying the difference comes from EQ-ing the same guitar differently. With all due respect, you seem to be really unsure about this whole thing. Which one is your sure fire statement?

[Vihar]

Just for clarification, you don't think this sounds like an L5 do you?

It could be, if I would have installed my EMG HA pickups into that L-5 and played in the middle position, with the .012-.052 gauge strings with plain G I usually use.

Now do you think it sounds like an L-5?

Because it is one.

[Jazzpunk]

So you can't tell which one is the laminate top and which one is the spruce top?

The samples were recorded with a Fender Deluxe Reverb RI going into a Beyerdynamic M88, into the interface. No reverb was used, other than the room sound because the mic was placed about 80 cm (2.6 feet) away, to avoid the direct style sound and the proximity effect of the close micing.



So if it happened to be the same guitar, your point has failed? Above you were still saying the difference comes from EQ-ing the same guitar differently. With all due respect, you seem to be really unsure about this whole thing. Which one is your sure fire statement?

You seem like you have a hard time reading what others have written. Try it again and skip over any big words you find confusing.

I never said that I could tell the exact make and model of a guitar or that I could always pick out spruce vs laminate. That was never my point. Please quote me where you imagine I said this!

What I said was that there will be an audible difference between an 18" spruce top and a 14" laminate. At this point in the thread you seem to be the only person disagreeing with this lol.

If you're clip was indeed two different guitars and not you trying to be clever than yes, you proved my point.

I spent a couple years working in music studios before switching to audio post production so I am well aware that you can change the tone of a guitar by rolling of the tone knob lol. You can approximate all kinds of things with tone knobs and EQ. None of that takes away from the fact that an 18" spruce top guitar will sound different than a 14" laminate.

In a recording situation I would start with the sound closest to what I wanted in the room, ie the right guitar, the right amp and the right mic placement. This is why there are different kinds of guitars and why every professional in the world can hear that they sound different. Choosing the right tool for the job is still the way to go even with modern digital tools (imo anyway).

I'll have some clips of my own up shortly. You can tell me what you think.

[Jazzpunk]

It could be, if I would have installed my EMG HA pickups into that L-5 and played in the middle position, with the .012-.052 gauge strings with plain G I usually use.

Now do you think it sounds like an L-5?

Because it is one.

Are you seriously stating that you can not hear the difference in tone between these two guitars?!

[Vihar]

What I said was that there will be an audible difference between an 18" spruce top and a 14" laminate.

No, you wrote:

I get your overall point but there are clear distinctions in sound between a 14" thinline laminate with set in pups and an 18" spruce top guitar with a floating pick up.

For which I had my response that you can look up in this thread.

Anyway, try to calm down and take a listen to my samples again. I'm still waiting for your guess.

Are you seriously stating that you can not hear the difference in tone between these two guitars?!

I wasn't. Did you really take that out of what I wrote?

[Jazzpunk]

I wasn't. Did you really take that out of what I wrote?

What was your point? You were just backing me up and proving that there is a big difference in guitars based on wood and body style? Well thank you! Sounds like we're in complete agreement.

There seems to be some miscommunication so lets start over. I contend that an 18" full sized spruce top guitar will sound different than a 14" laminate thinline both acoustically and amplified even with the same pick up through the same amp.

Agree or disagree?

(I'm perfectly calm btw. It takes a lot more than debating guitar tone with dudes on the intraweb to rile me up lol. I'm having fun discussing this topic, aren't you?)

[Vihar]

Oh well, let me give away the answer. Both samples was played with my Squier Standard Fat Telecaster:



Equipped with the following 5-way switch wiring:



Sample "Guitar A" was the neck position, but I plucked the strings somewhere between the neck and the bridge pickup.

Sample "Guitar B" was the "neck with less bottom" position of the switch, and I played more towards the neck pickup.

Same guitar, slightly different sounding settings and slightly different playing that's actually overcome the intention of those settings, since you perceived the first sample as being the brighter one, despite it being the full neck pickup without some of the bottom end removed. I played with my fingers in both samples.

So:

If you're clip was indeed two different guitars and not you trying to be clever than yes, you proved my point.

I'm afraid that point has failed.

[Jazzpunk]

Oh well, let me give away the answer. Both samples was played with my Squier Standard Fat Telecaster:

I'm afraid that point has failed.

Actually, I clearly called you out for trying to be tricky and also stated that both clips sounded thin for supposedly being archtops. What I proved is that I can hear quite well and that guys like yourself are incredibly predictable in these kinds of debates lol.

If you want to prove me wrong, than post recordings of the instruments I described both acoustically and through the same amp. If they sound exactly the same than you are right and I am wrong.

Spoiler alert: I am right!

[Vihar]

What was your point?

I get your overall point but there are clear distinctions in sound between a 14" thinline laminate with set in pups and an 18" spruce top guitar with a floating pick up.

My point was - in reaction to the above statement - I doubt you would be able to tell which is which in a blind test. Just like you were not able to tell if my samples were coming from the same guitar, or they were laminate or solid spruce archtops.

(I'm perfectly calm btw. It takes a lot more than debating guitar tone with dudes on the intraweb to rile me up lol. I'm having fun discussing this topic, aren't you?)

I'm sorry then, I misread your emotions through the text form. No hard feelings!

[Jazzpunk]

I'm sorry then, I misread your emotions through the text form. No hard feelings!

No hard feelings at all. I appreciate your passion on the subject of tone!

I do think your jazz clips would be better if you played them on an archtop though. Just personal preference.

[Vihar]

Really terrible tone in all of your clips and videos btw. You should pick up a nice archtop for your jazz recordings. You'll be amazed at the audible difference in tone!

Thank you for your kind advice, but I have to admit I really like my tone(s) the way they are. But I respect that your preferences are different, just like we seem to be different personally as well.

[Jazzpunk]

Thank you for your kind advice, but I have to admit I really like my tone(s) the way they are. But I respect that your preferences are different, just like we seem to be different personally as well.

I deleted my comment after writing it as you are right, it is very subjective. That is not the tone for me but it's perfectly fine for others.

I hope we're different. It would be odd if we were exactly the same!

[lpdeluxe]

I think the two recordings were excellent in tone. I fail to see how they would have been "improved" by playing them on a different guitar.

[Jazzpunk]

My point was - in reaction to the above statement - I doubt you would be able to tell which is which in a blind test.

On that note here's a similar thread though the OP was honest in his examples and not trying to confuse people by misleading them with false examples (as I clearly suspected you were doing and was proven right).

The Great Archtop Shoot out (sound clips) - Heritage Owners Club

I got 'em all right.

[Jazzpunk]

I think the two recordings were excellent in tone. I fail to see how they would have been "improved" by playing them on a different guitar.

Considering your handle and the pic in your avatar, I must say I am shocked!

Anyway, you cats are free to enjoy whatever you like and hopefully I am free to do the same. If you guys think a solid body sounds just like an L5 well more power to ya'!

Good luck to the OP. He was dead on with his initial comments and his perceptions of why he liked what he was hearing. Hopefully he will trust his own opinions and end up with a great guitar!

I'm outtie.
Peace

[Vihar]

I deleted my comment after writing it as you are right, it is very subjective.

Yes, I noticed that you kept modifying your posts through this discussion, to no avail because I automatically receive messages in my e-mail.

[Loobs]

Well, today I managed to get into the one London guitar store with a fairly decent jazz guitar selection. I played 3 Eastman and 1 Heritage. Some of you may be interested to read my views (bare in mind I am not an experienced jazz/archtop player, instead a competent and experienced electric guitarist trying to find his feet as a jazz player).

I went in there without preconceptions after absorbing the info/advice posted in this thread. I tested all 4 through a Fender Hot Rod Deville 4x10. First up, the Eastman guitars:

First I played was a thinline - the T146SM. It's about a similar thickness to a Gibson 335, maybe slightly thicker, hollow with a single mounted PAF-looking humbucker. Different to the pickup shown on Eastman's website. It sounded really good, and played fantastically. The controls worked very well. I really found it comfortable and it seemed to resist feedback fairly well, I was sitting right in front of the amp and playing at moderate volume. It sounded the darkest of the bunch and probably the most 'electric'.

Next I played the AR605CE. This was the cheapest that I played, I suppose due to the less fancy build, rosewood fingerboard, bridge and tailpiece. The controls were mounted on the underside of the pickguard. It has a spruce top but mahogany neck/back/sides. It sounded warm and round but definitely had more air to the tone than the thinline, as I expected. It sounded a bit more open. I didn't find the controls mounted on the underside of the pickguard to be up to much, especially the tone control. Maybe this is a common complaint of these controls. The tone control did little to nothing for 80% of its travel, going pretty much straight to totally rolled off for the last 20%. The finishing of this guitar wasn't quite as nice as the Thinline or the 3rd I played. There was some slight finish/paint overlapping the binding. Wasn't the cleanest I've ever seen. Still a nicely made instrument though. I probably liked the sound of this the most. It was still warm and dark but could definitely get enough clarity. Yes, it had a floating KA humbucker.

The final Eastman I played was the AR910CE. Quite a bit more expensive than the other two. All maple apart from the ebony fingerboard and spruce top. Liked the sound of this model the least. It was beautifully made and had a gorgeous flamed maple back. 17" was definitely too big for me. It sounded noticeably brighter than the other two guitars, especially the thinline, which was interesting because the thinline was made of the same woods: spruce top, maple neck/back/sides etc. Maybe the fact that there was quite a bit more maple on it, together with the floating pickup made it sound brighter. Either way, it wasn't the sound I was looking for.

Then I played a Heritage Sweet 16. Beautifully made guitar. I'd say it was a cut above the Eastmans in terms of build quality. It just seemed to be higher end - nicer finishing, thicker binding. Just a tangible feeling of being a better made guitar, I'm sure you all know what I mean, even though it's harder to describe exactly how. Nothing against Eastman at all, I was very impressed with them. Certainly tons better than the Ibanez boxes I looked at, in every way. The Heritage is also maple body/neck with a spruce top and a floating pickup. It sounded great - but was again bright, but had somewhat more weight to the sound, and louder, than the Eastman 910. Shame it only had a volume control. I think had i have been able to roll off some tone on the guitar I would've liked it the most.

So I really enjoyed trying these guitars and it's given me an idea of what I like (I think). Or at least a step in the right direction. I wasn't able to play and guitars built from laminate woods, but I'm keen to. Also, the set in humbucker did seem to darken the guitar, and make it sound closer to an electric than an acoustic. That being said, I didn't dislike what I was hearing from a floating pickup and there wasn't a huge different. Thanks to all the comments in this thread and my search for my ideal archtop continues.

[Loobs]

I just read that you can order the Sweet 16 with a set-humbucker and a tone control. Might be something to think about.

[lpdeluxe]

Considering your handle and the pic in your avatar, I must say I am shocked!

I have only an ES-335 these days. The Les Paul was sold to fund a Mesa/Boogie bass amp (almost all my gigging these days is on bass or harmonica, but I keep an electric around). The Les Paul was the best sounding guitar I had to that point (1997) but the 335 is as good and fits me much better. Actually, I'm not much of a solid-body player because they feel too small to me. Equally, big jazz boxes feel too big and awkward. I haven't played an acoustic flat-top for years for that reason.

I've become a Gibson guy over the years, but I appreciate the sounds that come out of Teles. I bought a Fender Deluxe Reverb reissue a couple of years ago, and the guy I bought it from demoed it with his sunburst rosewood fingerboard Tele. It sounded much like the clips posted earlier, and I toyed for a long time with acquiring one. In the end, I don't play enough guitar to justify it. I'm totally agnostic about the instrument being played: I want to hear good music.

[Jazzpunk]

I'm totally agnostic about the instrument being played: I want to hear good music.

I don't see how having a preference in an instrument takes away from making good music but ok. Hell, Eric Johnson has a preference in batteries for his pedals lol.

I love me a nice 335 though! Glad we agree on something.

[jorgemg1984]

Wow this is a very long discussion. Just throwing my 2 cents. Some things have a HUGE impact on your sound - pickups, speakers and picks are probably the ones that most affect your tone in my experience A lot of times when people don't like a guitar or an amp what they need is a good pickup or a good speaker. Using different picks is also something that immediately changes your sound.

There are tons of other things that make SUBTLE changes in your sound. Mounted or floating pickups, carved solid laminate, cables, strings, etc - its endless! Some people like Eric Johnson or David Gilmour hear every nuance on their sound, others simply don't care. SRV once was recording with 14 amps or something like that, one of the amps had a problem and he immediately said that amp wasn't working. I hear a difference in cables but there a lot of things that I cant tell the difference. I remember a lot of people debating on this forum tailpieces - metal or ebony and then someone posted a Benedetto article where he said you couldn't hear a difference on blindfold test...

So... choose a guitar that you really like. Not only because it sounds good but because you love to play it. Then put a really good pickup and get a good amp. Oh and if you play live beware that a lot of great archtops feedback a lot, laminates are usually much better for live usage. This is also valid for amps. get something that sounds good on stage not in your room. In my case I also like a more electric warmer sound, I don't want my sound to be too acoustic. My Guild X-500 and my Jazzmaster Ultralight are perfect for that. I will probably sell my Henriksen because its too acoustic (among other things). Personally I think both 175 and GB are too expensive bought new.

Oh and don't forget about practicing... Ben Monder said he hated his AS when he got it and then he just practiced so obsessively that he got used to it. And he gets an amazing modern sound out of it...