-
In my experience, the difference between floating vs. mounted PUs is not only about brightness - that can very easily be adjusted at the tone control. I have an older Benedetto Fratello with a floating PU which has a lot of irregular overtones and resonances reflected through the PU, whereas my Gibson 175 and especially my two solid top guitars has fewer overtones and less irregular resonances. The result is that the mounted PUs sound cleaner and each tone in a chord stand out much clearer than with the floating PU. It has nothing to do with brightness or darkness. I like that clarity, and for that reason I prefer mounted PUs for amplified playing. As a consequence I use different instruments for acoustic playing and for amplifed playing. These days, I only use the Benedetto unamplifed. I guess that if that clarity was driven to the extreme limit, we would end up with a sinus tone. Others like all that resonance in the amplifed tone, because it sounds more "acoustic", so for them a floating PU on a carved top guitar is what they need.
-
08-31-2011 03:44 AM
-
Do you think the gap between mounted PU and floater could be variable according to the floating PU model & brand, pots value, etc...?
There are so many options and prices around that it's nearly impossible to figure out the supposed benefits expected from a floater upgrade.
In other words, could it be possible to obtain both the typical fat electric tone from a mounted PU combined with the more acoustic sound from a floater and thus having the best from both world?
-
I do hope that what you got out of all this was: everybody has their own expert opinion, yourself included, and it very well may be different from others. So many things go into the sound and feel you describe as ideal: wood, as you point out, type of wood, thickness of the carvings, arching pattern, laminate thickness, laminate material,pickups, tone settings, strings, pickup height, pick type, amp, type of cable you use (seriously-when I switched to my present cables, my guitar sounded more acoustic), how you play, where on the strings you play, the type of music you play, and among many more factors be aware of this one: How You Hear What You're Playing.
Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
If you listen and hear a lot of information in the attack, and you have hardware that lets you hear transients, you may very well feel a difference between woods and laminates as a spectrum and not an A/B difference. If you hear and register mostly the tone of the sustain part of the envelope, then you may hear more of the sameness between setups.
I've found all kinds of sounds from all kinds of setups, and even a different visceral reaction depending on the day. Best way to find what you're looking for? Go with something and realize you made a mistake.
Welcome to the guitar collectors club. Huge membership. No rules.
David
-
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Hahahaha...
Good points, I agree, totally...and I'd like to add one thing: as we grow up (both in age and musically) our tastes evolve...in one direction, or in another...or in a third one...hence complete (sometimes) reformulation of gear...
Where would the money for a living of makers from big majors like Gibson to minuscule single luthiers come from, if things were more...static?
-
Hey Loobs - I've been having the same cionversation on and off for a few months. I'm also looking for that very warm, and slightly dark sound - I love the guitarists you mentioned, especially the non-jazz Howe - that's why I bought an ES-335 instead of a LP... I know he always loved his 175 though.
I imagine you're talking about Foulds. You should invest in the trip. I have to do the same, but I'm coming from France, not from London :-)
Check out Fould's videos in which they play side by side Eastmans, Peerless, Ibanez and even the ES-175 (it's a 1966 though). There is also a video if I remember correctly in which they highlight the difference between floating and fixed pups as Frank mentioned - super important.
I'm not (yet) a jazz guitarist but all of the acoustic guitars I've ever bought have solid, quality woods and nothing laminated. I get the discussion between lams and solids, but for me, the guitar is for the long term and as such, a solid wood will age better and become ever warmer. I know that there are excellent vintage lams, but that's just my approach.
I started out thinking of an ES-175 or even a Super 400, then considered Peerless Monarch (gorgeous tone) but will be giving more attention to the Eastman range. And I will definitely compare them with a vintage instrument...
At the end of the day, the advice which has been given to try them side by side is probably the most important. It's your ears...
-
I haven't actually played one, yet. Hopefully I will soon. It sounds exactly what I'm looking for, both from descriptions and on record. Originally Posted by rpguitar
Thanks all for their advice. Vehar/Helios - not really looking for a 330, I don't think.
-
Yeah, Tony. Sounds like we're in a similar boat. I was thinking about going up to Fould's this weekend, it's just so damn expensive (and a schlep) to get up there. Originally Posted by tonyknight
-
Good luck with it Loobs - please post back! And if you see Dan there, say hi. I'm hoping to get over there in a several weeks...
In the meantime, I'll have to stick it out with the 335 - which I know can sound very jazzy, but not at all through my amps! It's all about the whole signal chain and everything else as Truthhz says :-)
-
Which amps are you using?
-
I'm not denying that there are differences, but to assume that a guitar built according to your prejudices will sound the way you want is to attribute qualities that are mostly imaginary. It's much more useful to find the sound first. I think that will be more fruitful than getting into nuances that you perhaps only hear in your head (who hasn't had a fellow player tell him, "this is such a wonderful instrument! Listen to this" only to experience something other than a wonderful sound?). Originally Posted by TruthHertz
And, I'm not a collector. In 40 years I've owned 35 guitars of all shapes, sizes, and electronic configuration, and I now own exactly one electric: a Gibson ES-335 with a Bigsby. I don't care whether it's plywood or solid, whether it was built with silver-plated NASA wire in the electrics (by the way, back in my motorcycle road racing days, a friend gave me a length of that very stuff for the ignition on my racer: it made the bike misfire) or whatever. It fits me, it gets the sound I'm looking for, and it's worth a buck to my kids when I depart this earth.
I'm a skeptic, but a musical skeptic. The music counts a lot more than all the highly-figured koa on the planet.
Please don't take this as an attack: you have the right to feel the way you do, and your position is shared by many players. I'm simply advocating a simple approach that is the only way that will lead you to a good, or even great, sounding instrument: ignore the specs and listen. Listen some more. Then listen.
There is also another component that I have not mentioned: some guitars, or basses, or Dobros (I play all of those) will change your playing in positive ways. Surely that's the reason that many players have multiple instruments: not to gloat over their material wealth, but to take themselves places in the music not possible with other guitars.
-
Oh no, I don't see it as an attack. As a matter of fact I think we're in the same corner if I read you right. My post was just a list of all the many things to dispel the notion that the sound of a guitar can be classified in the duality of Solid wood and Laminate. Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
It's just a short and annotated shopping list of things I've observed can be seen as important or in some cases just as important.
Personally, I'm to the point that I don't choose an instrument by what other people are playing or what anyone else does, materials, tastes or anything. I wait for some inexplicable connection that allows me to play things I couldn't do before. This attitude has served me well to find musical instruments; then I try to do the muses justice.
David
-
Finally a great post. Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
I'm not denying that there are differences, but to assume that a guitar built according to your prejudices will sound the way you want is to attribute qualities that are mostly imaginary. It's much more useful to find the sound first. I think that will be more fruitful than getting into nuances that you perhaps only hear in your head (who hasn't had a fellow player tell him, "this is such a wonderful instrument! Listen to this" only to experience something other than a wonderful sound?).
And, I'm not a collector. In 40 years I've owned 35 guitars of all shapes, sizes, and electronic configuration, and I now own exactly one electric: a Gibson ES-335 with a Bigsby. I don't care whether it's plywood or solid, whether it was built with silver-plated NASA wire in the electrics (by the way, back in my motorcycle road racing days, a friend gave me a length of that very stuff for the ignition on my racer: it made the bike misfire) or whatever. It fits me, it gets the sound I'm looking for, and it's worth a buck to my kids when I depart this earth.
I'm a skeptic, but a musical skeptic. The music counts a lot more than all the highly-figured koa on the planet.
Please don't take this as an attack: you have the right to feel the way you do, and your position is shared by many players. I'm simply advocating a simple approach that is the only way that will lead you to a good, or even great, sounding instrument: ignore the specs and listen. Listen some more. Then listen.
There is also another component that I have not mentioned: some guitars, or basses, or Dobros (I play all of those) will change your playing in positive ways. Surely that's the reason that many players have multiple instruments: not to gloat over their material wealth, but to take themselves places in the music not possible with other guitars.
-
Trust your own ears, you're on the right track. Originally Posted by Loobs
There is a substantial difference in tone between the two archtops I own now (one is laminate, one is solid but other factors come into play as well). There have been substantial differences in tone between all of the archtops I've owned to date. All having to do with things like body size/depth, choice of woods, choice of pickups, etc and none of it having to do with rolling off the treble knob.
Some of the cats in this thread must've been to too many loud concerts with no ear plugs. Hearing damage is no joke!
-
I think all of us will agree with your statements. I think though there are some general statements about wood and pickups that some want to be educated on. For instance, maple offers a brighter sound, compared to Koa which has a warmer sound. Neck through designs help in having more sustain. These and comments like it or general statements and there are always exceptions due to other parts in the guitar chain that affects the sound. Some have said laminates tend not to feed back as much as solid tops. Not sure if it is true, but information like this can guide you to a guitar that you may like. However I agree sometimes it's best not to know some information on the guitar and just let your ears and hands decide if the guitar is for you.
-
Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
I'm not denying that there are differences, but to assume that a guitar built according to your prejudices will sound the way you want is to attribute qualities that are mostly imaginary. It's much more useful to find the sound first. I think that will be more fruitful than getting into nuances that you perhaps only hear in your head (who hasn't had a fellow player tell him, "this is such a wonderful instrument! Listen to this" only to experience something other than a wonderful sound?).
And, I'm not a collector. In 40 years I've owned 35 guitars of all shapes, sizes, and electronic configuration, and I now own exactly one electric: a Gibson ES-335 with a Bigsby. I don't care whether it's plywood or solid, whether it was built with silver-plated NASA wire in the electrics (by the way, back in my motorcycle road racing days, a friend gave me a length of that very stuff for the ignition on my racer: it made the bike misfire) or whatever. It fits me, it gets the sound I'm looking for, and it's worth a buck to my kids when I depart this earth.
I'm a skeptic, but a musical skeptic. The music counts a lot more than all the highly-figured koa on the planet.
Please don't take this as an attack: you have the right to feel the way you do, and your position is shared by many players. I'm simply advocating a simple approach that is the only way that will lead you to a good, or even great, sounding instrument: ignore the specs and listen. Listen some more. Then listen.
There is also another component that I have not mentioned: some guitars, or basses, or Dobros (I play all of those) will change your playing in positive ways. Surely that's the reason that many players have multiple instruments: not to gloat over their material wealth, but to take themselves places in the music not possible with other guitars.
this is so healthy-it basically advocates using your own, subjective assessment
and i think this is great, leave those name brands etc behind......
but OTOH....
if you want a sports car you dont look at truck
my point is that there are some general attributes of guitars, etc that may make the search narrower-and i think thats what many of us have suggested, :i think this type, model, etc might provide what you are looking for" as opposed to a needle in the haystack approach-
and...while sound is paramount-there are some who also love aesthetics as well-they too are subjective, be it a very road worn plain jane, or a luthiers labor of love with ornamentation with special woods -and that too will enter into what to look at
for instance, no one has advocated a Les Paul, possibly becuase it is unlikely to find the OP's type of tone there.........
or ....."i dont care what kind of guitar so long as its a red one!!"LOLLast edited by stevedenver; 08-31-2011 at 07:51 PM.
-
Why does personal preference automatically turn into prejudice? Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
I get your overall point but there are clear distinctions in sound between a 14" thinline laminate with set in pups and an 18" spruce top guitar with a floating pick up. It's not a bad thing if one discovers a preference for one or the other.
I envy guys who can pick up any ol guitar and be happy! I find I'm more inspired if I enjoy the feel and tone of an instrument. I haven't found the 'one' but I learn more about my likes and dislikes with each instrument I own.
Oh and I'm pretty sure it's not imaginary...I think.
-
Thanks for the link. I enjoyed that! Originally Posted by helios
-
I beg your pardon. I read your post somewhat superficially, and have since gone back for the good sense you expressed. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Thank you. I've got more. Originally Posted by Vihar
-
Two different kinds of pickups. But even that way, I doubt you would be able to tell which is which in a blind test. Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
But anyway, let's try it. I recorded a simple phrase twice, let's see if you can tell which guitar has a laminate top and which one is the carved spruce top. Same kind of body mounted pickup, same set of .012 gauge flatwound strings.
Here they are:
Guitar A
Guitar B
-
I have not yet listened to the comparison, but I feel that tests like this miss the point. The differences that matter are not those perceived by the listener. They are the ones perceived by the PLAYER.
Carved and laminate guitars FEEL different, and respond differently to touch, attack, and technique. Add the routed vs. floating variable, and it's even more dramatic. Again, it is the player's perspective that matters, not the listener's.
I recorded a video of several semi-hollow guitars not too long ago, where I played a few bars of improv on each one, and edited it together with backing music. The result? I was amazed at how similar the guitars sounded to me as a listener. Why? Because as a player, they all feel very different. And I'd argue that this is what really matters, after all.
I'll check out your clips later for sure, just for fun.
-
+1 Originally Posted by rpguitar
-
I still hope that players still hear what they're playing too. lol Originally Posted by rpguitar
I appreciate your post rpguitar, but if those "dramatic" differences in "feel" you're talking about are not audible in the sound of the guitar then they are irrelevant in this discussion, simply because Jazzpunk clearly stated his point:
And again, my examples closed out the pickup differences, because it wouldn't be a fair comparison if we added another - possibly much more significant - variable to the picture, when we're comparing the sonic differences of electric guitar top materials. Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
I know it's pissing against the wind to try to break down myths like this, but if it opens the eyes of at least a few more people, it was worth it. And it sure is fun (yes Brwnhornet, it is fun
).
-
ill play
they sound very close
A-carved spruce
b-laminated, in top pups
provided of course they are eq's the same
but they might simply be the same guitar with and without treble and a bit of bassLast edited by stevedenver; 09-01-2011 at 10:38 AM.
-
To my hears through a pair of cheesy headphones: Originally Posted by Vihar
Guitar A is slightly brighter than Guitar B. A sound a bit cleaner than B, beside this, overall tone characters are quite similar.
-
I was going to stay out of this, but in the interests of fun, and perhaps learning something empirically... To me there is a very distinct difference between the two tones: Guitar A is much brighter (still warm) whereas Guitar B is much warmer, overall quite a bit darker. I also hear a little miore breakup in Guitar B, which might indicate a hotter humbucker.
I trust that indeed the EQ, the recording process, and the pups are the same.
This would lead me to believe that Guitar A has the solid spruce top, and Guitar B the laminated top.
tony
Reply With Quote
Has anyone tried the JHS Clover preamp pedal?
Yesterday, 05:41 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos