Intonation *above* the 12 fret

[Brian B.]

Hello.

I recently bought a factory made guitar, with which I am generally *very* thrilled (it's actually much more than I expected considering my very limited budget). It has intonation problems in the upper registers, though. Specifically, on the high E string -- around frets 13-16 -- it's sharp. Unfortunately, on the G string -- also in the upper range -- it's flat! This makes for some awful sounding octaves!

The place I bought it from, couldn't have been nicer, or more helpful. He took it back and had his tech reset the intonation, etc., for no charge. However, this didn't help, since the intonation in general seemed fine (it was just at those specific places that there's a problem).

So ... before I take it back, I wanted to have a sense of what might be causing the problem ... and if there's a relatively easy fix. If the dealer can't fix it, how much would I expect to pay a luthier?

Also ... is there any chance changing the string gauge will help (I've been using 13s on it exclusively).

Thanks for any info!

Brian

[TruthHertz]

Ya gotta give us a little help here for those of us without Betazoid telepathic abilities.
Please give a little hint: Electric guitar? Wooden floating carved bridge with one piece wood saddle? Tune-o-matic saddle piece? String gauge? Wound or plain G? I'll assume .013 straight across to a heavy 6th string? Brand of strings? Action height? Pickup type? Distance from the pickup to the string? If it's a tune-o-matic with posts set into the top, are the saddle pieces at the end of the travel in the slots? What kind of neck set do you have (straight or slight or heavy relief)? Have you checked the neck for humps above the 14th fret to see if the action may be set high to compensate for that? Is it a high fret access guitar like an SG, ES-335 type or hollow 175 type or join at the 12th fret like a Stella?
These are helpful things to know, at least in being able to answer your question.
David

[Dad3353]

Originally Posted by Brian B.

...Thanks for any info!...

Good afternoon, Brian...
'Intonation' can be a tricky subject, as there are several points of view and differing susceptibilities in play. Here's my humble thoughts on what you've described, others may differ in opinion. I am assuming decent strings here (not a old worn-out set...)
When a guitar is tuned, using the open string, the octave (12th fret...) should sound as an octave of the open string. Once that has been achieved, using the adjustment possibilities at the bridge, all the intermediate notes (frets...), plus the notes beyond the 12th, should be in tune also. This cannot be varied; the fixed position of the frets determines the note for each. If the octave is correct, all the other notes should be correct also. This assumes that the manufacturer has placed the frets in the correct position. It rather sounds as if this is not the case for your guitar.
A couple of questions, if I may..? When the technician had finished his adjustments, and you found that some notes were 'off', did he/she agree that these notes were not correct, despite the octave being correct? If so, this would imply, imho, changing the guitar or, at least, having the fretboard replaced. This, depending on the initial value of the instrument, could well be prohibitive.
If the technician does not agree, can he/she justify that all notes are correct, all over the fretboard (with the readout from an electronic tuner, for instance...)?
When someone else plays these notes, are they still 'off'? It could be that uneven pressure from the fretting hand, or a slight unintentional 'bend' on your part, are falsifying the exactitude of the fretboard.
I hope this helps somewhat; an independant third party could give a better judgement, perhaps, with the guitar in hand.
Please keep us informed as to the outcome, if you would..?

[Brian B.]

Oops! Duh! Here's the specs:

Shape Arch Top Cutaway
Scale 625 mm (24.6")
Number of Frets 22
Nut Bone
Bridge Rosewood (floating)
Pickups Floating

The strings are D'Adarrio Medium Flatwounds (13, 17, 26, 35, 45, 56). I think these are a bit flat sounding, and was going to change to Thomastik-Infeld nextime I change the strings. I'd be happy to go down to 12s if this might help the intonation.

The setup is from the factory. I don't have a ruler, so I can't say how close the action is. It's certainly playable in the upper-registers. The neck doesn't look like it has any valleys or the like by eyeballing it.

Anything else I've missed?

Thanks!

Brian

[Vihar]

You gotta move the floating bridge into its proper position, by checking intonation of the two outmost strings. Then you can tune up the rest and live with it. lol Here's an article on it, at the bottom of this page.

And yes, flatwounds are flat sounding, so even Thomastik-Infeld flatwounds won't change that fact. Maybe try roundwounds next time.

[mambosun]

Is there any special reason why you didn't mentionned the brand of your guitar?
Did you already questioned the manufacturer about this issue?

[Brian B.]

> Is there any special reason why you didn't mentionned the brand of your guitar?

Yes. The guy I brought it from has been amazing, and I didn't want anyone to think I considered this a big problem. I got a great price, the guitar sounds and plays great. Maybe I'm being a bit nitpicky about this issue as well.

[Brian B.]

BTW, after reading some of the replies, I've decided to try my hand at setting the intonation myself (wish me luck!).

[TruthHertz]

Hey thanks- Dad's advice, really good. Father knows best! With a fixed wooden bridge and saddle piece there's always going to be some compromise. The higher the action is, the harder it will be to get them all right (in general) and the strings will exhibit the most individual "out of tune" distortion. It's really useful to have a very accurate tuner when setting intonation.
I have a really good old analog/digital boss tuner that I plug right into the jack, let the pickups listen for me.
First try to set the neck straight. Hold the first string down at the first fret, and fret at the 14th fret with the other hand. That gap formed should be REALLY close to the fingerboard all the way through, but it should also be able to play a note clearly. If it doesn't play freely, there's is over bow and you should back off the tension, if the gap is considerable then there is too much warp and you should add tension and straighten it out. Check the same on the 6th string. If they don't agree, then you have a twist in the neck (not good.)
OK so now the neck is straight. At this time, if you wanted to take the action down at the nut to make the guitar play easier, it's a good time. Hit me up in a private email if you want to know about this, I'll be happy to give you a step by step OR you can have a luthier optimize for you. It's a good thing to do, this is one of the notorious factory corner cuts that makes a huge difference when put right. ... anyway...
Now put the height (action) where you want it. Lower the action to where you want and where it sounds good. This is a taste thing, a style thing, a you thing so work with it.
Tune the guitar with the open strings and your tuner.
Now check the strings and the tuner by playing the harmonic at the 12th fret. It should come in precisely and dead on.
NOW with the amount of tension you'd normally play at, depress the string at the 12th fret ,play the high E note, wait for the note to settle and what does the note on the tuner say? If it says sharp, then you can move the entire bridge at that point TOWARDS THE TAIL ever so slightly. If it's flat, then move it towards the neck. When it's dead on, you're right.
Retune everything after each alteration.
You now do the same thing with the 6th string. Be mindful that you maintain a good alignment with the strings and the fingerboard as you're doing all this moving around.
If your two E's are done right, that's a good reference and it's assumed the other strings will come in approximately to precisely where they should. If not, if one string is way off (like your G) then compensate so the high E and G are both off by equal amounts.
Now try to play these notes and report back on the results.
By the way, to check for a hump in the fingerboard above the 14th fret, you'll need a very precise and straight edge, a small precision ruler is best, but a straight edge about 6 inches long will do. put it down across the top of the frets and see if it rocks back and forth like a see saw. If so, there are high frets and maybe a hump in the fingerboard. This will also effect the notes.

I know this is a lot. Check this out and report back. The adventure continues!
Hope this is useful
David

[Brian B.]

Okay ... this is all very helpful (though a little scary to mess around with it myself!). Just one more question. According to this video, you move the bridge while the guitar is tuned to pitch. Is this correct, or should you loosen the strings before moving the bridge?

‪Gretsch Guitars - Tech Tips - Intonating Your Bar Bridge Equipped Gretsch‬‏ - YouTube

Thanks!

Brian

[mambosun]

Originally Posted by Brian B.

Okay ... this is all very helpful (though a little scary to mess around with it myself!). Just one more question. According to this video, you move the bridge while the guitar is tuned to pitch. Is this correct, or should you loosen the strings before moving the bridge?

‪Gretsch Guitars - Tech Tips - Intonating Your Bar Bridge Equipped Gretsch‬‏ - YouTube

Thanks!

Brian

Ths will depend on the guitar and gauge strings you use: on mine I did that but had to loosen the strings, otherwise the bridge won't move, which makes this operation a bit tedious (loosen, adjust, re-tune, re-loosen, re adjust re-tune etc...)

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

NOW with the amount of tension you'd normally play at, depress the string at the 12th fret ,play the high E note, wait for the note to settle and what does the note on the tuner say? If it says sharp, then you can move the entire bridge at that point TOWARDS THE TAIL ever so slightly. If it's flat, then move it towards the neck. When it's dead on, you're right.

Excellent post, David -- and I'm *not* trying to start a debate here, and let's be very careful about hijacking the thread (I'm borderline-notorious for it already); but, since we're talking intonation, this matter of waiting till the tuner needle, or lights, "settle" .... as opposed to taking the reading at the point of string attack .... is one I only recently became aware of. The folks at Korg (I haven't checked the websites of other manufacturers) state emphatically that, to get your guitar to sound its best -- in-tune-wise -- DON'T wait. Take the reading you get at the moment you pick the string.

This blew my mind! If true, I saw, then I've always set my intonation "wrong." I'd always thought you had to let the pitch indicator "settle in." But, applying some logic to the question, I saw that they're very probably right. After all, the string's pitch, at the moment of attack, is what we (and our audience) hear. We don't pick a note and then wait a couple of seconds! No - we keep going. Same for strumming.

What think you guys? Does it matter, as long as one is consistent? Seems to me, yes - it would matter. But how to ensure you're picking the string with equal force every time? Tough question, aye? How, then, *does* Brian set his intonation?

The Gretsch technician (in Brian's previous YT post, see below, again) does it this way, too - point of attack. If interest warrants, let's make a new thread, rather than overtake Brian's.

Comments, anybody?

YouTube Video

[SamBooka]

I dont know if anyone mentioned this yet... but....

Dont try to set your intonation when your string are at end of life.

New strings.. broken in.. works best

[Brian B.]

Last question. Since this guitar has the factory set-up, do you think it's worth it to have it professionally set up (and have the intonation set then)? -Thanks!

[Vihar]

Yes. But it's nothing you couldn't do yourself.

[fep]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

The folks at Korg (I haven't checked the websites of other manufacturers) state emphatically that, to get your guitar to sound its best -- in-tune-wise -- DON'T wait. Take the reading you get at the moment you pick the string.

This blew my mind! If true, I saw, then I've always set my intonation "wrong." I'd always thought you had to let the pitch indicator "settle in." But, applying some logic to the question, I saw that they're very probably right. After all, the string's pitch, at the moment of attack, is what we (and our audience) hear. We don't pick a note and then wait a couple of seconds! No - we keep going. Same for strumming.

What think you guys? Does it matter, as long as one is consistent? Seems to me, yes - it would matter. But how to ensure you're picking the string with equal force every time? Tough question, aye? How, then, *does* Brian set his intonation?

The Gretsch technician (in Brian's previous YT post, see below, again) does it this way, too - point of attack. If interest warrants, let's make a new thread, rather than overtake Brian's.

Comments, anybody?

Have you every looked at the pitch of a vocalist graphically over the time of the note. It's really dramatic, most of the time you'll see them slide in from above or below pitch and it might be as much as a whole step or more! And then it will settle into the pitch. And they're singing right in tune.

So I'd say the listener doesn't lock into the original pitch but to the pitch that that the vocalist/instrumentalist settles into.

And we're not talking a couple of seconds, the guitar pitch settles quickly. The attack of the pick actually bends the string, so the sound of a guitar note starts sharp and then comes down to pitch, this happens quickly. And that's the sound we all know and love.

Check this graph of this women singing and listen to the mp3 I linked. This women sings very much in tune but look at how much she slides into pitch. But we hear the note she settles into, that's why it sounds in tune:



http://www.box.net/shared/8y2e6dmk1gnre1czysyb

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by Kojo27

Excellent post, David -- and I'm *not* trying to start a debate here, and let's be very careful about hijacking the thread (I'm borderline-notorious for it already); but, since we're talking intonation, this matter of waiting till the tuner needle, or lights, "settle" .... as opposed to taking the reading at the point of string attack .... is one I only recently became aware of. The folks at Korg (I haven't checked the websites of other manufacturers) state emphatically that, to get your guitar to sound its best -- in-tune-wise -- DON'T wait. Take the reading you get at the moment you pick the string.

If true, I saw, then I've always set my intonation "wrong." I'd always thought you had to let the pitch indicator "settle in." But, applying some logic to the question, I saw that they're very probably right. After all, the string's pitch, at the moment of attack, is what we (and our audience) hear. We don't pick a note and then wait a couple of seconds! No - we keep going. Same for strumming.

OK if you don't wait, you get a good intonation on the attack, that means for faster notes, your note will be right on, this is because when you first pick, you're stretching the string, "bending" it so to speak, and then it settles in.
If you have good intonation at this point, it'll sound good on the first part of the decay envelope, the attack and RIGHT after that, and then it will settle on a flatter note.

The settling in process isn't actually measured in seconds, but in fractions of a second, the note will register sharp and then immediately settle into its decay. The time depends on the string, the gauge and how hard it's hit (stretched, bent, deformed...)
If you're going for more long tones, the attack will sound and your ear will hear the effect of a sustained note, or a chord, or a quarter or half note passage, as flat. Make sense? That's why I say wait.,but it can be argued either way. You decide, right in tune for passages that are going by fast with very short notes that change right after you hit them, or right in tune for the notes that last long enough for you to judge their out of tune quality with other notes that are sustaining long enough for you to hear.

David

[oldane]

Through the ages, many have attempted to improve the intonation of stringed instruments - some more successful than others.

This is one of of those attempts:




(guitar exhibited at the Musical Instruments Museum in Berlin)

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by fep

Have you ever looked at the pitch of a vocalist graphically over the time of the note. It's really dramatic, most of the time you'll see them slide in from above or below pitch and it might be as much as a whole step or more! And then it will settle into the pitch. And they're singing right in tune.

So I'd say the listener doesn't lock into the original pitch but to the pitch that that the vocalist/instrumentalist settles into.

Hey fep -- good points, good examples. The vocalist analogy is really hard to argue with. I wonder what the Korg people would say. And the Petersons, too, I believe. Beautiful vocalizing by the woman in the .mp3, btw.

I tune my guitar partly by tuning out the "beats" that happen when two notes that are supposed to match, but don't, are picked -- and these are *definitely* the "settled-in" pitches. How often does the audience get to hear these, though? It could be that there's a fairly equal number "pick-bam-gone" notes, and "pick-sustain" notes going on in a typical guitar part. I'd love to hear Korg's rationale for their tuning dictum. (More Latin comes to the forum....)

This thread is about setting Brian's intonation, though -- and this is where the Gretsch "master" technician is using the initial pitches of the attack. Seems to me the same principles would apply to setting intonation as apply to tuning the guitar. Our friendly Buzz Feiten people say that intonation must be set this way, too, at point of attack -- with the Korg DT-7 tuner.

I betcha it doesn't matter much which way you do it. That's what I betcha.

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

OK if you don't wait, you get a good intonation on the attack, that means for faster notes, your note will be right on, this is because when you first pick, you're stretching the string, "bending" it so to speak, and then it settles in.
If you have good intonation at this point, it'll sound good on the first part of the decay envelope, the attack and RIGHT after that, and then it will settle on a flatter note.

Yep - agreed.

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

The settling in process isn't actually measured in seconds, but in fractions of a second, the note will register sharp and then immediately settle into its decay. The time depends on the string, the gauge and how hard it's hit (stretched, bent, deformed...)

Yes, and the settle-in time depends upon the tuner, too. My Korg DT-7 takes at least a second, if not more. It's a very accurate device, though.

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Make sense? That's why I say wait. But it can be argued either way. <~my emphasis...kj> You decide, right in tune for passages that are going by fast with very short notes that change right after you hit them, or right in tune for the notes that last long enough for you to judge their out of tune quality with other notes that are sustaining long enough for you to hear.

David

Exactly. Al Di Meola should tune to the attack pitch. Leo Kottke shouldn't. And if someone is in between, it's his call. Again, I betcha it doesn't matter much.

=====
There you go, Brian: an option for you.

Is your saddle compensated? If not, that might be the solution.

[TruthHertz]

Yeah the guy from Gretch has a nice video and good points. Me? I worked for Ibanez, set up, built and repaired for some of the most respected in the biz in the decades I've been doing this, but alas no video. I just know what I do and why.
Final verdict?
Can you say potato?

YouTube Video

Hey, why not set the intonation for something just flat of the attack and just sharp of where the string settles? How much you want to bet that if you play really well, have great lines and tasteful harmony nobody's gonna come up to you after the set and say "Are you for real? Did you know your B string is off by 3 Hz at the 14th fret?"
David

[Kojo27]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Yeah the guy from Gretch has a nice video and good points. Me? I worked for Ibanez, set up, built and repaired for some of the most respected in the biz in the decades I've been doing this, but alas no video. I just know what I do and why.
Final verdict?
Can you say potato?


Hey, why not set the intonation for something just flat of the attack and just sharp of where the string settles? How much you want to bet that if you play really well, have great lines and tasteful harmony nobody's gonna come up to you after the set and say "Are you for real? Did you know your B string is off by 3 Hz at the 14th fret?"
David

Haha! Very good. (Of course, now I'm sitting here trying to play "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off." Tomay-toe, Tomah-toe, yada, yada, ya ya ya.) Almost got it.