Gibson ES-165 Herb Ellis vs. Eastman 805ce

**happa95** · 08-12-2011, 02:38 AM

Hey all, I'm currently looking to buy an archtop to play in my high school's jazz band and jazz combo. I'm normally an acoustic fingerstyle player and I'm used to the size and feel of an acoustic, which means an archtop makes a lot of sense. My budget is $2000. At the shop where I currently take lessons, they had a used Gibson ES-165 for sale that felt really good in my hands. The neck almost made me feel like I was playing my Eastman Dreadnought. That guitar is $2300 but I could probably talk them down to about $2000. On the other hand, there's a dealer that I'm going to visit soon that has a wide range of eastman archtops. I know that I should buy on how the guitars feel and sound to me, but I was wondering if you guys/gals had any thoughts/opinions/recommendations.

TH · 08-12-2011, 03:15 AM

Such different guitars, it's difficult to even A/B them. As you pointed out, your own preferences regarding feel and how well they suit all your needs, not to mention how much it inspires you to want to play, are what matters. Make yourself a list of impressions, strengths, potential problems, how and where you'll most likely be using it, etc. and see if that helps.
Right off the bat, I'd say that in a large combo, and the volumes you may find it necessary to play at, the 165 could possibly have an advantage. On the other hand, that will be just one aspect of your life and in small combo or solo contexts, if the Eastman and the intimacy of its sound brings out the music in you better, you'll be well off with the complexity of sound the true acoustic body.
Make the list. Have a few songs you play on each instrument and note your impressions... then be a real guitarist... and buy both!

David

**Jazzpunk** · 08-12-2011, 03:21 AM

Since you can try them out in person, buy the one that plays and sounds best to you.

**happa95** · 08-12-2011, 03:32 AM

Well, I've heard about some quality issues concerning more recent Gibsons. Should I be worried?

Btw, this is the model with a set pickup and both the tone and volume knobs, not the more recent model with a floating pickup.

**BigMikeinNJ** · 08-12-2011, 07:35 AM

If I remember the specs correctly the ES165 has a laminated maple top, whereas the 805 has a CARVED spruce top - totally different sound. I am not an Eastman rep nor do I have any Eastmans for sale - BUT I own 3 and have owned 2 other Eastmans. One thing I will say about Eastman's - they look a lot nicer in person than they photograph, they are really excellent guitars with a level of craftsmanship and tone I don't see that often in American made guitars any more. Not knocking Gibsons or Fender or any other brand, but the Chinese builders are quickly catching up, start ramping up your QC and lowering your prices.

As with any guitar purchase: take your own amp to try them out, that way YOU KNOW it's gonna sound how you want it to when you get it home. I also suggest you try out the Eastman's in a store but buy online from someone selling a used one. I've gotten the BEST deals on used Eastmans - they're a well kept secret and there are good deals to be had. You should be able to find an 805 used for about $1100.00 or less... That's a lot of money left over to buy strings and pay for more lessons.

Look I don't know how "kosher" it is here linking to ads - but this dealer has a used 805 for sale on eBay for a very good price, the flamed wood on the sides and back are gorgeous, remember this is a carved top and back. One thing I will say against Eastman: the use a classic varnish finish followed by two thin coats of lacquer which are buffed out almost completely - the finishes are very thin but the guitars resonate really nicely. That means if you went with an Eastman you have to be extra nice to it - it doesn't have the tough thick finishes on it like some Ibanez guitars do (LOL I LOVE IBANEZ).

**SamBooka** · 08-12-2011, 10:06 AM

what year is the 165?
I have a 96. The only real weak point is the tailpiece which is a 50$ allpart piece. (google es165+tailpiece and you will find a few different people (myself included) who have had problems with this)

2300 also seems about 600$ more than they usually go for but that depends on your local market. I paid 1800 and change for mine but it was the only thing I could get without ordering online. Ebay shows them selling for closer to 1700.

Not a bad guitar but I think you are comparing apples and elephants with the Eastman. The 165 is an ELECTRIC guitar with a hollow body. Took me a while to realise that it is a good guitar but you gotta plug it in. This of course is based on my 165 which has a topmounted HB. I tried the floating version a few years ago and dont recall being knocked on my ass (but again.. not plugged in)

**rpguitar** · 08-12-2011, 05:20 PM

For $2k you are nearly in the 900 series with Eastman, which are their finest models. Beautiful maple - all carved. I don't know what dealer you're going to, but if it's Guitars 'n Jazz in Summit NJ, you should play a ton of Eastmans and pick the best one. They are acoustic to begin with, then electric as a bonus.

The 165 set pickup model is cool too. Darker, electric 175 sound. You need to decide what you like better. It's not an objective answer - it's personal.

**pierre richard** · 08-12-2011, 08:36 PM

I had a 2005 model 165..

Purling came off on cut out....not lined up very good all around...

No pick guard....gold hardware...neck was just too thin for me...

I would not buy a new one...

I have been playing my 1977 Ibanez 2355 (175) since 1978...$750.00...

The quality blew away the Gibson....I guess I am so used to the Ibanez...

.014s flatwound....medium action...Polytone Mini Brute amp...can't ask for any more than that...

time on the instrument...pierre

**The_Dude** · 08-12-2011, 08:55 PM

I'm sure you know this, the Gibson ES-165 HE has no tone control (old school). Some people don't mind since they set the tone on the amp and forget about it, contrary to those who like to change their tone on the fly. I almost bought the Herb Ellis (red wine) but in the end I went with an Ibanez. Cheers

**Steve Z** · 08-12-2011, 09:36 PM

There is a big difference between the floating pickup of the Eastman and the mounted pickup of the Gibson ES-175. I would think that you would first need to decide which style pickup you preferred. I prefer the mounted pickup of sound and it is less prone to feedback. The feedback is something to consider in a jazz band at volumes.

Your budget of $2000 opens a lot of options for a nice semi-hollow to hollow body guitar beyond the two you are inquiring about. I have played both Es-165's and several Eastman models and all are really nice. No matter what you buy, I always recommend buying used if you can... and from a private seller to save some money.

FWIW, any guiar will work fine in a high school jazz band. Back when I was in my high school jazz band I played a Gibson Les Paul Custom... neck pickup and roll the tone back and poof, a nice jazz tone. Now I use an ASAT Classic (telecaster style) when I play jazz.

Here is a video that may help with the floating vs. mounted pickup decision...

**Steve Z** · 08-12-2011, 09:39 PM

You don't mention in your original post which amp you are using or if you still need an amp.

Do you already have an amp or is that on the shopping list as well?

**happa95** · 08-12-2011, 09:53 PM

Thanks for all the comments everyone. I went to the store with the eastmans and I liked them, but I didn't LOVE them like I loved the Gibson. In fact, 2 nights ago, I had a nightmare in which I walked into my guitar shop and the Gibson was... gone! I started bawling immediately. Perhaps my subconscious is trying to tell me something.

It's the older one with the set humbucker, not the floating pickup. Btw, Steve, I have a small vox tube amp but my school has a fender deville or twin reverb (I forgot which) for when I play with the big band or combo.

**Steve Z** · 08-12-2011, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by happa95

Thanks for all the comments everyone. I went to the store with the eastmans and I liked them, but I didn't LOVE them like I loved the Gibson. In fact, 2 nights ago, I had a nightmare in which I walked into my guitar shop and the Gibson was... gone! I started bawling immediately. Perhaps my subconscious is trying to tell me something.

It's the older one with the set humbucker, not the floating pickup. Btw, Steve, I have a small vox tube amp but my school has a fender deville or twin reverb (I forgot which) for when I play with the big band or combo.

Sounds like you have made up your mind

. If you are really leaning toward the Gibson, then I would recommend searching eBay for current auctions as well as recently end auctions (use advanced search to get end auctions) to determine the current price of what they are selling for in today's economy. As SamBooka has mentioned, $2300 is a bit high. I took a quick look through eBay and it seems like the span has been $1600 - $1850.

Nice amp for the house and really nice amps at the school. The Gibson will be a nice fit with those amps!

Cheers.

**SamBooka** · 08-13-2011, 09:50 AM

dont forget to post pics ;D

**kambor** · 08-13-2011, 04:03 PM

I was underwhelmed with the sound of the 165 when I heard it live against my €400 Ibanez af75 (a cheap 175 clone with venetian cutaway).

My advice is to try both, and if you happen to like the 165 better, then compare it against a high end Ibanez. My bet is you'll spend 500€ less and have at least as good tone as the gibby.

**gcb** · 08-13-2011, 06:33 PM

I had a Herb Ellis in ebony that came from factory with a mounted 490R gold pickup. It was a resonant guitar, well built. Changed the pickup to a Classic 57 and after two years sold it. It was a pleasure to play. The sound was obviously different from a carved top, not woody. Acoustically had a loud voice, but no comparison to a carved top Gibson. Can´t comment on Eastmans as I never played one. I used the 165 HE mostly amplified through a Fender twin amp and enjoyed that guitar a lot. I had to sell it to buy another Gibson, otherwise I would have kept it. Good luck with your purchase. I would go for the Gibson.

**gcb** · 08-13-2011, 06:38 PM

I had a Herb Ellis in ebony that came from factory with a mounted 490R gold pickup. It was a resonant guitar, well built. Changed the pickup to a Classic 57 and after two years sold it. It was a pleasure to play. The sound was obviously different from a carved top, not woody. Acoustically had a loud voice, but no comparison to a carved top Gibson. Can´t comment on Eastmans as I never played one. I used the 165 HE mostly amplified through a Fender twin amp and enjoyed that guitar a lot. I had to sell it to buy another Gibson, otherwise I would have kept it. Good luck with your purchase. I would go for the Gibson.

**happa95** · 09-04-2011, 04:54 PM

I bought the Gibson! After trying a lot of guitars, including but not limited to: an Eastman Pisano, Eastman 805ce, heritage eagle classic, '84 ES-175, Ibanez GB-10, heritage h535, etc. the neck on the ES-165 still just felt perfect for me. I swapped the flat wounds for some round wounds and now it has a really loud acoustic voice, nearly as loud as my dreadnought. Anyways, it's exactly what I wanted: an electric guitar that feels just like an acoustic. I'll post pics when I get home!

**gcb** · 09-04-2011, 07:03 PM

¡Congratulations Happa95! Wise decision. Great buy, classic instrument, enjoy it. And don't forget to post the pics.

**happa95** · 09-05-2011, 03:43 PM

**happa95** · 09-05-2011, 03:43 PM

**rpguitar** · 09-05-2011, 04:21 PM

Very nice. Exactly what I'd expect it to look like, with the early 1990's plush pink case! And it looks like you have a nice Bianchi road bike, too.

**AlohaJoe** · 09-05-2011, 04:40 PM

Beautiful! I much prefer the 165s w the set-in pickup... I'm sure you'll enjoy it!

**SamBooka** · 09-05-2011, 06:53 PM

congrats!! What is the year ? (first and 5th digits of the Serial number).

Mine was made March 25 1996.
I bought it March 26 2010
Herb passed March 28 2010
I have a hard time parting with it and it doesnt help that I bought it on Friday and we lost Herb on Sunday. I was a fan of his before I even knew of his association with the 165.