Seth Lovers in Ibanez PM35 - too bright?

tomassplatch · #1 08-03-2011, 04:31 AM

Hello everybody,
I've been a regular reader of this forum for months, but this is my first post.
I recently bought Ibanez PM35 guitar, which is quite fine, if a little bright. I wanted to darken the tone while adding a little sparkle on the high end so I changed the PU for Seymour Duncan Seth Lover (Alnico 2, non wax potted). I want to share my experience and ask some advice.

The pickup seems to make the guitar even brighter, thinner and the heights seem to be too aggressive and very microphonic (or radiophonic) - as you can hear on this video:

YouTube Video

My luthier was very surprised by the sound and thought that the pickup was broken. I measured the resistance and it seems correct (around 7kOhm). I wonder if a cold solder could cause a lack of bass and too thin heights.

This is how the guitar sounds when I turn down the volume and the tone pots (it is quite alright, even if it is quite thin):

YouTube Video

So what do you say? Is it the guitar? Is it the pickup? Any PM35 owner? Or someone experimented with Seth Lovers?

Thanks!

The_Dude · #2 08-03-2011, 05:28 AM

I got my Ibanez PM35 some two months back and I'm really pleased with it. I did replace the original strings with Thomastik-Infeld Flat Wound George Benson Jazz Series which gives the guitar an even warmer tone.

The first thing you should do is view this video which show the Ibanez PM35 being tested:

‪Guitar-View.com Ibanez PM 35 vs. Epiphone Broadway‬&rlm; - YouTube

I get the exact same tone from my own PM35 (original pickup) as in this video when played through my Ibanez Wholetone amplifier. Anyway, I don't know anything about the Seth PU but my recommendation includes maybe putting back the original pickup, change your strings (the Thomastik-Infeld do give a real nice warm tone) and make sure you are using a quality guitar cable (to avoid capacitance buildup which affects tone). You may also want to check the capacitor on the tone control and do provide us with some details on the type of amp and settings you are using.

barrymclark · #3 08-03-2011, 05:37 AM

Strange. My Heritage H575 has two Seths and I keep them both hot and they aren't that bright. Strange. I don't know what to say about that.

jzucker · #4 08-03-2011, 06:30 AM

strange, the seths I have played were dark

tomassplatch · #5 08-03-2011, 06:56 AM

thank you for your replies so far, really appreciate... is it normal for seths to have a lover output than the original pickups? the originals were ibanez super 58, and they are probably ceramic or alnico V. The seths are quite quiet compared to them (about 70% of the original output). is it normal? could it be soldering problem? demagnetized pickup?

jzucker · #6 08-03-2011, 07:01 AM

i'm wondering if you have them wired in parallel instead of series. That would make them brighter and quieter (approx 70% quieter). The 2 pickups you mention should be about equal in vol

kambor · #7 08-03-2011, 07:19 AM

Alnico 2 pickups, given the same amount of wire, should have lower output.

jack maybe has a point, check if it's wired on parallel, or even if it's reversed (bass side on treble side). Has happened before, trust me...

However, super 58 pickups are regarded as good paf pickups, so maybe trying to put them back and trying a different strings and picks may solve your problem

barrymclark · #8 08-03-2011, 07:41 AM

Yeah. I'd look at what Jack said. Didn't even think about that.

I also agree that Super 58's are good pickups and I would have just left them if that was what was in there. I thought these came with Custom 58's though. Not bad sounding... but not Super 58's.

BigMikeinNJ · #9 08-03-2011, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrymclark

Yeah. I'd look at what Jack said. Didn't even think about that.

I also agree that Super 58's are good pickups and I would have just left them if that was what was in there. I thought these came with Custom 58's though. Not bad sounding... but not Super 58's.

Yeah the Super 58 Customs are decent, but they are NOT Super 58s. The Ibanez Artcore AS103s come with the Super 58 Customs (has the little stamp in the lower right corner of each pickup cover). They are sweet, but not near as well defined and sweet as the Super 58, which in my mind is every bit as good as most Gibson pickups, the SD Seth Lovers and SD Antiquities.

I'd replace the wiring and pots - this belongs in the hands of a good guitar tech who really excels in wiring/soldering. Those Seth Lovers should make that guitar sound really dog gone good...

Best of luck with that, with the gear you got there you should end up with a very sweet sounding all around versatile guitar for all sorts of music.

barrymclark · #10 08-03-2011, 08:38 AM

I REALLY wanted the AF105 with the floater. Don't make 'em anymore. Oh, well.

mongrel · #11 08-03-2011, 09:32 AM

What strings are on it? As Dude posted above, a set of TI's or Chromes should tame the highs a good bit.

tomassplatch · #12 08-03-2011, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzucker

i'm wondering if you have them wired in parallel instead of series. That would make them brighter and quieter (approx 70% quieter). The 2 pickups you mention should be about equal in vol

The pickup is two-wired (hot output inside + braid shield), so I don't see how could I wire it in parallel?

tomassplatch · #13 08-03-2011, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mongrel

What strings are on it? As Dude posted above, a set of TI's or Chromes should tame the highs a good bit.

Thanks. I use Thomastik 13 round wound. But they didn't sound this harsh with the original pup.

Arnesto · #14 08-03-2011, 09:47 AM

The PM35 has maple neck, I think that's one reason why you get that sound.
DiMarzio told me that one solution is to install a bridge position pickup instead a neck position pickup

tomassplatch · #15 08-03-2011, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrymclark

I thought these came with Custom 58's though. Not bad sounding... but not Super 58's.

You are right, I think the original pup was Custom 58 (I checked on Ibanez website). Alright, but too bright and quite compressed in heights.

Vihar · #16 08-03-2011, 09:57 AM

Maybe it's your pick or the amp settings that make your tone bright and thin.

tomassplatch · #17 08-03-2011, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arnesto

The PM35 has maple neck, I think that's one reason why you get that sound.
DiMarzio told me that one solution is to install a bridge position pickup instead a neck position pickup

Yes, maple is quite a bright wood. How would installing a bridge pup change the tone? Bridge pups usually hotter, with more resistance. Does it also mean less brightness?

The_Dude · #18 08-03-2011, 10:41 AM

Wow, this thread is all over the place. Did you not watch the PM35 video I linked? ‪Guitar-View.com Ibanez PM 35 vs. Epiphone Broadway‬&rlm; - YouTube The guitar is inherently fine and you should get a beautiful warm jazz tone if the guitar is properly setup and used. How you managed to get that hot-bright tone is beyond me, but you should either return the guitar or have it checked out / setup by a professional.

whiskey02 · #19 08-03-2011, 10:42 AM

How close are the pups to the strings? Lowering them can have dramatic (good) effect on the tone.

mongrel · #20 08-03-2011, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomassplatch

Thanks. I use Thomastik 13 round wound. But they didn't sound this harsh with the original pup.

It sounded like wound round and I've found TI's to be brighter than Chromes. Chrome flat 13's would do you.

tomassplatch · #21 08-03-2011, 11:19 PM

is it normal that seth lover only has 50% of the output of the original pickup?

jzucker · #22 08-04-2011, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomassplatch

is it normal that seth lover only has 50% of the output of the original pickup?

i already addressed that earlier. Oops, didn't see your reply. My guess would be a broken coil or bad insulator on one of the coils. Tap on each coil with a screwdriver and see if you hear it equally going through the amp to see if one's shorted.

tomassplatch · #23 08-07-2011, 12:50 PM

thank you for all your replies. I changed the volume pot and double checked all electronics and even put back the original pickup - and it was working fine. I sent the Seth Lover pickup back to Seymour Duncan for replacement. Will keep you posted when it arrives.

mongrel · #24 08-07-2011, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomassplatch

is it normal that seth lover only has 50% of the output of the original pickup?

The easiest way to check it would be to stick a shorty patch cord in the jack and put a multimeter set to measure resistance across the plug. The Seth should measure probably in the 7.5Kohm or so range. Sustantially less resistance would indicate a short somewhere, a defective pickup.

Mark James · #25 08-09-2011, 08:58 AM

I personally would not go so far as to replacing the wiring or pickups,...yet. If I were to replace anything it would be the 500K pots to (CTS) and the tone cap from a .047 to a .033 Sprague OD. Then see if you achieve the tone you want. I would think it would be better to start with a brighter sound that you can adjust with a tone control than to have a dull sounding guitar right out of the gate, (IMO).

jzucker · #26 08-09-2011, 09:09 AM

replacing the pots or caps won't change the tone. That's just internet hype. Changing the value of the cap will only effect the tone when the tone control is rolled off.

Vihar · #27 08-09-2011, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzucker

Changing the value of the cap will only effect the tone when the tone control is rolled off.

That's true. However, changing the volume pot to a higher value will bring out the pickup's resonance more. That's what most people who do that perceive as brighter. That's because most (passive) pickups have their resonance (with a regular length guitar cable in the circuit of course) in the high-midrange - somewhere between 2 - 5kHz.

Basically: shorter cable and/or higher volume pot value = brighter and slightly louder sound.