Gibson Les Paul

[max chill]

Why is there so little love for this guitar among jazzers? Demand for this model was so low, that it was discontinued in 1960, and until British blues rockers created a new awareness of them, there was not enough demand to produce them again until 1968 for the rock market.

I got thinking about quality workhorse guitars, and really wonder why the Les Paul is not considered more often as a huge value with an entry price of about $800. It surely plays and sounds as nice as Gibsons that cost thousands of dollars.

It's got the Gibson scale, neck, pickups, and quality construction that seems to be the standard for many jazz guitarists. I understand the hollowbody camp craves the quick decay of a jazzbox that equates to a "woodier" sound, but for those that play a 335, a Fender, or some other solid or semihollow, I am really surprised that more don't consider it as a serious option for a guitar that is worth playing.

What's up with that?

[hot ford coupe]

This is a really good point. I used to have a Les Paul Custom 1954 Historic Collection reissue with the thicker neck and I really liked it for jazz. I put .013 flats on it, brought up the action a bit and used the neck pickup (an Alnico V) exclusively. It was mellow, warm, had a beautiful jazz tone and with its black finish and Super 400 type headstock inlays, it was very elegant looking. It may have been a slight bit brighter than an archtop but the sound was still very traditional, more than enough for a jazz guitar. Its weight seems to be the only disadvantage I can think of. The reason I sold it was because I had to thin out the collection so I didn't have more guitars than I could evacuate if I needed to. Besides, it was one of the 9 guitars I sold so I could buy the 39 D'A Excel I now play.

The only thing I can think of for it being the unloved step child is because 1) it's considered a rock guitar by so many people and 2) the prejudice that a guitar can't be a jazz guitar without F or S holes. I play an archtop strictly because I love the look of an archtop with the vintage DeArmond style floating pickups and because the archtop was so prevalent in jazz history of the 30's and 40's. Otherwise, I wouldn't care what a guitar looked like.

[mr. beaumont]

They're heavy as hell, and quite expensive...last time I checked the only models around $800 were Epiphones...even Studios are well over a grand now.

I find them to be small and uncomfortable to play.

Just one man's opinion...my guess is the real reason more jazzers don't take to them is the "rock" image...irony, eh?

[max chill]

I understand the weight thing as perhaps the only valid point, they are a more traditional looking shape, with an arched top and floating pickguard, and less modern looking than any strat or tele, and no smaller. Yes, you can buy a new one today for $799. Cheaper than an american standard tele!

[gary mitchell]

Les Paul played alot of good music on a Les Paul. I just recently purchase a Prestige Heritage LP from a company from Canada. Which is way better then a Epiphone. Maybe just as good as a Gibson. Seymour Duncan 59 neck and JB bridge I'am changing the JB for another 59. IMHO it plays jazz rather well, I play it with a Fender Hot Rod Deville 410, and my friends Roland 80XL. I love the Gold Top with the P90s. I've always liked Les Paul's sound and I like him when he played with his wife Mary Ford. My Prestige is my main guitar. I guess I just got used to the weight.

[mattymel]

it can do jazz every bit as well as a 335. early west coast jim hall stuff...great tones. he was playing the original 54'...awesome guitars. i have a 54' RI Goldtop, but the 54' customs are super bad.

[bopandroll]

The problem Ive always had with les pauls is that I can play 10 of them. 1 will be really great, 4 will be ok and 5 will just be rubbish.

Im not sure if i can be botherd putting the effort into finding that 1 when with many other brands 8 out of 10 of them are great and the other 2 are ok.

Gibson dont seem to have consistancy

[Drifter]

I have two Les Pauls and I really love them, especially the 52 tribute GT, which plays and sounds like a dream. But it just screams for some tube saturation, it's more a Blues than a Jazz guitar. The LP Special is nice, too, a limited edition with an ebony fretboard. Without the maple top, it sounds clearly darker and warmer but that always feels like a shortcoming compared to the Goldtop. I'm still looking for the right strings to make it more a Jazz guitar. I've tried Sadowsky 011 flatwounds - awesome, fat & warm sound but too heavy for the neck, it kept bowing inwards up to a point where I didn't dare to adjust the truss rod even more. Now it has Thomastik 010 flatwounds, the neck loves them and they feel right but I'm not impressed with the sound. Also I'm struggling a little with the frets, must be Jumbos or similar, so chord sliding doesn't go as smooth as I'm used to. Not a perfect condition for Jazz playing but it's all a matter of getting used to I guess.

Anyway, Les Pauls are fantastic guitars in my opinion.

[hallpass]

I apologize for bumping an old thread, but I just happened to come across this thread today and wonder the very same thing about Les Pauls.

I think Les Pauls are super versatile guitars from jazz to rock and anything else for that matter. I'd prefer to play jazz on a Les Paul than any other solidbody (strat, tele, etc). I like the Les Paul scale length in comparison to Fender guitars.

I think a Les Paul Standard is priced high (otherwise I'd have one), but the Studio models are affordable ($799-$1200 depending on specific model) and also not as heavy (assuming they're chambered or weight relieved). I have two Studios myself.

[hot ford coupe]

I'm glad we're revisiting this thread because I thought of an interesting point. I've heard a number of times that folks rather play jazz on a Les Paul rather than the Fender solids and that makes some sense to me. The Tele and Strat were originally made for country music (at least that's what I read so don't hold me to that) while the Les Paul was developed for the kind of music that Les Paul was playing at the time which was jazz and pop.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, actually the tele was developed for Western Swing players...who play...well...jazzycountry. Or countryjazz.

[zigzag]

No reason why an LP can't be used as a jazz guitar, esp. ones with 57 Classics or P-90s. However, if I was going to consider a solid body guitar for jazz, I'd be more inclined to use the stock neck pick-up on a Tele.

Edit: Dang mr beaumont! Great minds, eh?

[JazzFanatik]

I think that different players prefer different styles and it doesn't really matter what something was MADE for if I enjoy using it for something that works for me! Just my opinion...

[stevedenver]

i have more than a few les pauls, as i have a love for them, and have since i was 16
i have a variety in terms of decades, and pick ups

i find that they are indeed the muscle car of guitars-
they have huge bass and unlimited sustain-comparatively
for rock it is undeniable that they are particularly well suited

that said

i have always been a rather lonely voice as they DO have a great clean sound -provided they have the right pick ups and the right distance from the strings, the right amp and the right player...all you have to do is listen to danny gattons version of canadian sunset to understnad what lies beneath
high out put pick ups imho kill the nice clean sound an lp can get

my personal favorite for jazz is my LP artist with active electronics-
yack you say-

it actually mimics the liveliness of an archtop as well as the clarity of bass rather well-has a sweetness and clarity, round and articulate

the other that i also like ..and another 'yack you say'
is my LP recording guitar with low z pups-few actually know these first hand-i love them for what they ARE-they are NOT a typical LP -side by side they sound aenemic because the pups are so low output in signal
yet when balanced in signal strength and using a low z impedence in line converter
these are really nice for clean sounds-and have an unique sound -on the neck , they are also able to mimic an accoustic guitar quite well and very tweakable tone wise-more a wide array of pop country and rock sounds, but there are a few jazz tones in there as well
simply-they sound like Les paul of the late 60s and beyond-they can be thin and sterile compared to a regular humbucker-becuase the pups are too damn clean- but they can also be tweaked really nicely-they sit well in a mix-extraordinarily so

regular humbucker LPs sound great too-i prefer the custom over the standards for jazz-(at least mine)
and slightly lower output pick ups like 490s or seth lovers or some boutiques really do shine

one thing a les paul can do really well -is handle very heavy strings and still play very nicely-over time some of the hardware may literally bend as a result-but heavy strings can really change the guitars sound

i too like teles with the longer scale on the neck for jazz
but LPs can do it-where i find it more difficult is controlling string dynamics-they tend to be rather bassy unless dialed in carefully or a low freq filter used

[gary mitchell]

I heard a guy play some pretty cool Jazz on Danelectro the other day. It comes back to that, Jazz is a type of music not a Guitar, it even sounds pretty good on a banjo. I have a nice Les Paul copy I put TV Jone classic humbuckers in. John Anderson can play good Jazz on it, with his old Silver Face Vibrolux. He is a better picker then me, but he can't have my guitar.

[Peter C]

My 20 year old Heritage H150 doesn't seem to care whether it's "seen" as a Rock guitar or anything else and its weight has never been an issue, in my hands, anyway. I've never weighed it, BTW.

Yes, you can expect a Heritage to be better than an Epi. It beat the Gibson LP standards I compared it to at the time of purchase hands down in terms of build quality, feel and tone.

I don't know which LP can't take 11 gauge strings: mine had 14-56 strings on it at one time, though "we've" settled on 12 or 13-52 for now.

I too love the big, thumping bass I can elicit from it and as stevedenver says, pickup height is very important: it's the rockers who jack them up right against the (light gauge) strings out of their insatiable appetite for SUSTAIN baby. There's so much more to a Lester than that.

I'd love to have a Gibson LP Recording model

[tejastani]

Does the goldtop play in tune with the trapeze/wrap-around bridge?

[Jake Hanlon]

I have a low end Les Paul as a back up guitar or an instrument for more 'electric' options and it's a fine instrument, I have zero issues with it, yeah it's heavy and it's neck is a bit chunky but turn that bad boy up and let it sing imo.

It's a pretty versatile guitar, can get a lot of sounds. I'm not big on the pups in it but hey, it's not a big deal.

I sometimes keep it in my office studio and teach on it for a week or two. Right now since I bought a Hofner that's in the studio right now as I'm getting used to her. But the Les Paul is a fine instrument

I would contribute that yeah... they are somewhat overpriced.

[Atticus]

The other guitarist in our school jazz band has one of those multi-thousand dollar Les Paul models. It sounds great, but I think the neck is really uncomfortable.

I have no place judging the appearance of a guitar since I play a Blacktop Strat most of the time. Definitely not the ideal jazz guitar, but for what I paid for it, I'm happy.

[hot ford coupe]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Well, actually the tele was developed for Western Swing players...who play...well...jazzycountry. Or countryjazz.

That's what I meant. A big part of the Strat was shaped by Bill Carson (I hope I got tat name right) who did play Western Swing. I tend to lump country and Western swing together which is probably something I shouldn't be doing.

[hot ford coupe]

Originally Posted by JazzFanatik

I think that different players prefer different styles and it doesn't really matter what something was MADE for if I enjoy using it for something that works for me! Just my opinion...

Bingo. I like your opinion.

[Flat]

Mattymel in post#6 mentioned some early Jim Hall recordings on a '54 Les Paul. I never knew JH ever played a Les Paul. I'd love to hear some of that just for the sake of comparison with his later archtop stuff, which I know fairly well. Can someone point me at some albums? Was that just his work with Chico Hamilton? Anything else to recommend? Thanks for any info!

[oldane]

I think it's very much a question of what is "in" at a given time. I remeber a time when Les Pauls were the only solid bodies to consider and Fenders were completely out.

IMHO, almost any solid body with a neck PU can be brought to give a good jazz tone with the right setup (strings, action, maybe a PU swap) plus a bit of EQ'ing (if needed).

That said, I prefer Fender type guitars. Not because of a "better" sound, but because of their modular concept. It's so eay to change and customize everything - neck, PUs, wiring etc. These days, the Tele is the preferred Fender for jazz, but I actually prefer a Strat type body as I find it more ergonomic and comfortable to hold, and the PU-Pickguard assembly makes customizing a little easier than it would be on a Tele, especially with Strat bodies with a "swimming pool" cavity.

[hallpass]

I have roundwound 11s on my Les Paul Studio. The D'Addario EXL115 ones. They're good for the rock stuff I do, yet also fat enough to get a decent jazz tone when I roll the tone knob down on the neck pickup.

I agree almost any guita with a proper setup (pickups, strings, etc) can get a decent jazz tone. The thing with Fenders is I prefer the shorter scale length of the Les Paul (and my archtop Ibanez AK105) since I'm short, or what I refer to as "vertically challenged".

There's the Studio faded brown and cherry models that are all mahogany (no maple top). That makes for a little darker tone, which can be cool for jazz.

[seanlowe]

Never really been a fan of LPs for any music, apart from the weight issue, in doesnt really give much of its own sound to the output... i can tell a les pauls being played generally, as its a "dark" tone, but where people say "dark" id describe it more as dull or muted :/.

Same as any guitar though, out of a batch of 10, some will be meh and some will be gems.

[Dennis D]

I've been mostly playing jazz and only archtops since the '60's. Because Les Paul was born close to where I've lived all my life, I decided to own one LP. A friend told me about the Artisans, and after seeing one, I had to have one.
I've found there are significant differences to playing one of these. Probably for me, number one is getting comfortable while playing seated. I seem to be 'all arms'. I have tried to dial in a strap, changed holes, and if there's a secret, someone please let me know. I watched LP and he would set his on his left knee. I seem to just struggle getting used to having all that extra space.
BUT - -the drop-dead wonderful sustain takes a while getting used to and has spoiled me. And the drop-dead gorgous inlays have spoiled me too. I am thinking I ought to have bought one a long time ago 'cause then I'd be used to it by now.
Bottom line for me,jazz will come out if you play it right on whatever instrument you choose.
MHO
Dennis

[jmstritt]

To me, Les Pauls feel akward. The combination of being heavy and small is a bit wierd for me. Also, they are WAY overpriced. I mean for $900 you can get a bare bones LP Studio, for $900 you can get a heck of a good Tele.

Just my preference.

[stevedenver]

i agree they are a bit weird to sit with and i vasciliate between a classical guitar position and a normal postion-i dont use a strap when seated
i play like a nerd- i like the neck high, so i have little bend in the wrist and easy access-i have no idea how guys play a low slung instrument-and i do know how to use my thumb-still is not for me

i completely agree about the prices of high end LPs-but ....
thats capitalism
simply, they cost what they do because they can charge what they get
-the LP is the biggest seller of gibson, and likely has the highest margin

consider a run of the mill burst historic LP for about 4-5+ K -give or take
and an L5CES for 6.5 K+ish

otoh-a normal LP for about 1700 + doesnt seem too high when compared to other name brand sold bodies

having been to the custom shop
Gibsons are labor intensive-still a great deal of handwork on many instruments-and nitro on all

they are what they are-
i happen to like humbuckers clean

that said-if one were to buy an LP clone from a boutique builder-youll very likely get a better guitar, but not by a lot, and certainly not a better price-they are a lot of work , much more so than a fender