Experience with Epi 'New Yorker' pickups?

[cmajor9]

There's an old 1953 Epiphone Zepyhr on the bay now with 3 'New Yorker' pickups. I have a newer Epi with P-90s that I really like, but I've never played a guitar with the older New Yorker style pickups. I asked the seller if he could compare the sound to a P-90, he said they would be warmer, and "more suited for jazz playing."

Does anyone have experience playing an Epi with these pickups? If so, could you comment regarding the sound, and the ability to get good 'jazz tone' (based on your idea of what that is, which is obviously somewhat subjective)?

Thanks for any replies!

[fws6]

I had several electric Epi's. The Zephyr Emperor Regent is an extremely well built guitar, superb flamed woods, brazilian boards, stunning inlays and other cosmetics. My ZER and Zephyr Deluxe Regent sounded great even acousically.

Most have rounded necks with nice wide nuts, which I like a lot (never been a fan of those skinny & narrow Gibson necks). You have to like the big body of the ZER but the waist is rather narrow so plays fine. Bindings can be an issue, so inquire on beforehand. Although I dont care for minor shrinkage myself.

As for the pickups; Epiphone's NY pickups are very nice but also can be a bit variable. The pickups were Epi's weak spot, their acoustics (carved archtops) are second to none, but their electronics never made it to the same level as for instance Gibson or DeArmond. The pickups on my ZER were fine, but also often you hear that people have to have the NY's rewound a bit hotter a/o wax potted. You'd really have to try. Duke Robillard is the most famous jazz oriented player using Epiphones, and he usually swaps the NY pickups for mini-HB which can be done reversibly without adapting the pickup holes. Then again, as said above the ones on my guitar were just fine, good output, easy to dial in a useful jazzy sound.

These guitars come up for sale often, just hang around until you see a nice one and dont get fooled by dealer prices. A good condition ZDR will go for around $3000-3200, and a ZER for a little bit more. They're worth that easily.

[cmajor9]

fws6,

Thanks much for the detailed reply. That helps a lot. I certainly know Duke Robillard's playing; I knew he played Epi's, although it seems he has a lot of guitars in his 'arsenal'.

The Zephyr I was referring to is here:

ASTOUNDING 1953 Epiphone*Emperor Zephyr Regent original - eBay (item 110677856059 end time May-01-11 12:14:59 PDT)

(first time posting a link, I hope it comes across OK)

They're asking a bit under $3K, so it seems in the ballpark. It certainly looks a beaut, but with the age and binding problems I'm not sure. The seller says they're a 3rd-party, so they don't have much experience with the instrument.

[oldane]

FWIW, Bill Bauer used an Epiphone with New yorker PUs around 1950 when he worked with Lennie Tristano. You may want to find som recorded material from then to get an idea of what it sounded like. (But of course, amps were different back then - don't know what amp he used))

[cmajor9]

Thanks for the info, oldane!

[hot ford coupe]

I've got one CD done by Billy Bauer where he was the leader for the sessions. I think it might be the only one out there. He also had a D'A Excel cutaway made for him but I don't know if any of those gigs saw him playing an Epiphone. He sort of sounded a bit like Johnny Smith. Chuck Wayne also played an Epi but I'm not sure which model. You can see and hear him in the link below with George Shearing and the quintet. To my ears, the sound he makes is the classic bebop sound. The tune is Swedish Pastry.

YouTube - George Shearing Quintet

[63Bigsby]

In that clip Chuck's guitar probably doesn't have a New Yorker PU. He had a 40's Zephyr, NY PU's came on guitars a bit later. Also, Chuck's guitar originally had the PU in the bridge position which Chuck didn't like. So his guitar was modified, possibly the PU was changed too.
A friend of mine has a -53 Zephyr Deluxe Regent w/ two NY pups, it sounds terriffic! One like this:
1953 EPIPHONE ZEPHYR DELUXE REGENT HOLLOWBODY ELECTRIC | eBay

[oldane]

Originally Posted by hot ford coupe

I've got one CD done by Billy Bauer where he was the leader for the sessions. I think it might be the only one out there. He also had a D'A Excel cutaway made for him but I don't know if any of those gigs saw him playing an Epiphone. He sort of sounded a bit like Johnny Smith. Chuck Wayne also played an Epi but I'm not sure which model. You can see and hear him in the link below with George Shearing and the quintet. To my ears, the sound he makes is the classic bebop sound. The tune is Swedish Pastry.

YouTube - George Shearing Quintet

As for Billy Bauer, there should also be recordings available with the Metronome All Stars of 1949, including Charlie Parker and Lennie Tristano besides Bauer. You may want to search for antologies in Birds name. Herman Leonard took photos during the recording session - one can be seen here: https://www.morrisonhotelgallery.com...tographID=2298 (unfortunately Bauers left hand covers the guitar PU).

As for the Chuck Wayne clip, there seems to be two different PUs on the guitar. The bridge PU has the size of the original NY PU, while the neck PU is a little bigger. It's hard to see from the blurry video, but that neck PU could have been a Gibson "dogear" P90 which was used on Gibson jazz boxes at the time. BTW, Chuck Wayne was a very, very good and very underrated guitarist.

[63Bigsby]

Originally Posted by oldane

As for Billy Bauer, there should also be recordings available with the Metronome All Stars of 1949, including Charlie Parker and Lennie Tristano besides Bauer. You may want to search for antologies in Birds name. Herman Leonard took photos during the recording session - one can be seen here: https://www.morrisonhotelgallery.com...tographID=2298 (unfortunately Bauers left hand covers the guitar PU).

As for the Chuck Wayne clip, there seems to be two different PUs on the guitar. The bridge PU has the size of the original NY PU, while the neck PU is a little bigger. It's hard to see from the blurry video, but that neck PU could have been a Gibson "dogear" P90 which was used on Gibson jazz boxes at the time. BTW, Chuck Wayne was a very, very good and very underrated guitarist.

I believe what seems like a bridge PU is just a plate covering the hole for the original PU. Here's a bit better photo of Chuck and that guitar:
[Portrait of Sam Hall Kaplan, Frenchy Cauette, Chuck Wayne, and Deryk Sampson, Three Deuces, New York, N.Y., ca. June 1947] (LOC) | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Hard to say for sure but the front PU looks like the original Epi PU moved from the bridge to the front??
And yes, Chuck was fantastic!

Bauer used Epiphones almost exclusively before getting his D'A. The PU on that guitar in the Parker photo is called a "Tone Spectrum".
Billy Bauer's Music | Photo Gallery featuring Billy Bauer, Warne Marsh, Lee Konitz and Lennie Tristano plus other great Jazz artists

Some good info on Epiphones can be found here:
Vintage Guitars Info - Epiphone vintage guitar collecting general info

[fws6]

>I believe what seems like a bridge PU is just a plate covering the hole for the original PU

Yup that is an 1940 Zephyr with the pickup replaced to the neck position. The first Zephyr's had the PU in the bridge position

>The PU on that guitar in the Parker photo is called a "Tone Spectrum"

Epiphone referred to all their pickups as Tone Spectrum. The term New York pickup was made up later by collectors referring to the early 50s pickup as on that 1953 Emperor; but it wasnt the official lingo. Kinda like everyone speaks of the Telecaster ashtray, whereas fender of course never called their bridge cover like that.

[hot ford coupe]

63Bigsby, oldane and fws6. Thanks so much for the great info you've posted. I had a lot of trouble identifying which guitar Chuck had. All I really knew was that it was an Epi. Also, thanks, guys for posting all those great photos. Not only do I love listening to and playing jazz (well, at least I'm trying to do that), I love the history. That's what really does it for me.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by 63Bigsby

Here's a bit better photo of Chuck and that guitar:
[Portrait of Sam Hall Kaplan, Frenchy Cauette, Chuck Wayne, and Deryk Sampson, Three Deuces, New York, N.Y., ca. June 1947] (LOC) | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

This should be its own thread. These photos are gorgeous.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by spiral

This should be its own thread. These photos are gorgeous.

If you like those black and white jazz photos, you may like these books:

Amazon.com: The Jazz Image: Masters of Jazz Photography (9780810957497): Lee Tanner: Books

and

Amazon.com: Jazz (9781608193332): Herman Leonard: Books

and
Amazon.com: Bass Line (9780877226819): David Berger: Books

[AlohaJoe]

The one that got away... I had the good fortune to get to play an lovely blond early 50s Epi single-pup Zephyr Regent at archtop.com a while back and the NY pups had a tone that defined jazz for my ear, wonderful and rich! I ultimately decided against parting with the money, a decision I still occasionally regret (I liked the neck too). Others have said the NY pups were inconsistent, but if you get a chance to play one by all means do so... it might change your life.

[fws6]

curious to see where this one will end. Just look at those woods. I had one just like that it was excellent. I only play the acoustics right now, but otherwise I would definately get this one if I could

VINTAGE 1951 EPIPHONE ZEPHYR DELUXE REGENT ELEC. GUITAR | eBay

[AlohaJoe]

That's very good looking guitar! These are fairly heavy, part of the reason I prefer the single pup version