ES-175D with P90's or PAF's

[bjdeluxe]

I'm looking to purchase an ES-175D. I'm on the fence about which way to go, P90 or PAF. I've got leads on 2 near mint guitars, one of each. What are your opinions of which to get. One is a '53 w/P90. The other a '61 w/PAF.

thanks,

bj

[hot ford coupe]

I've had guitars that had p-90s and some that had PAFs as well as patent number pickups. In my opinion, you really need to hear each instrument and then make your choice at that point. You're really making a choice between a single coil and a dual coil humbucker. The PAF may be a little quieter. I personally would be happy with either one since they both sound really good. At present, I'm using a single coil DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1100 and it's got the sound I hear in my head. It comes down to personal choice.

[fumblefingers]

i'm not a vintage aficionado but wouldn't the '61 with PAFs be the more collectible choice?

and if not going for collectibility, why not just buy a Benedetto 16 inch lam top? probably a better guitar anyway...

[Bill C]

Originally Posted by bjdeluxe

I'm looking to purchase an ES-175D. I'm on the fence about which way to go, P90 or PAF. I've got leads on 2 near mint guitars, one of each. What are your opinions of which to get. One is a '53 w/P90. The other a '61 w/PAF.

thanks,

bj

fwiw I used to own a '57 ES-125 with a P90. The pickup sounded great but there was a definite level of buzz and hum and it was prone to feedback at high volumes. I've played a '57 175 which had a similar vibe to the 125 but had a replacement h/b, so probably not a fair comparison.

The PAF guitar might be the better investment if that is an issue.

[NSJ]

The 1953 would not be a 175D--D is for dual pups, which came a couple years later. The 53 would have a single dog eared P90

[bjdeluxe]

Thanks for the replies. You are right about the 53......it is a E-175. Unless it is listed incorrectly on the website it says it is a 53 with 2 pickups.

[NSJ]

Originally Posted by bjdeluxe

Thanks for the replies. You are right about the 53......it is a E-175. Unless it is listed incorrectly on the website it says it is a 53 with 2 pickups.

Doh, my apologies! The ES 175D apparently started in 1952--I was wrong, and thought it only began when they started the PAFs--

Vintage Gibson Guitars: Gibson Es 175

[bjdeluxe]

Thanks again. You guys are so helpful. Can anyone describe a general difference in the sound of a P90 compared to a PAF?

thanks,

bj

[mattymel]

personally, i would go with the single p90.

i prefer single coils to humbuckers for jazz because you get more definition. some PAFs, even vintage, can sound too muddy. from my experience, you can always dial out brightness, but when a guitar is too muddy, its a struggle to get it right.

plus two PU vintage 175s with PAFs go for twice as much money. considering you will hardly ever be using the bridge PU, seems like a bit of a waste. though i guess you could sell it and it on Ebay for $2K if its got a sticker.

the early jim hall records with his single p90 175 are among my favorite all time sounds. the hum isnt really an issue. electro harmonix makes a hum canceling pedal that works very well if you are recording, though i do it the old fashioned way and just angle my guitar right. for playing live its a non issue IMHO. good luck. im jealous. missing a 175 in my life.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by bjdeluxe

Thanks again. You guys are so helpful. Can anyone describe a general difference in the sound of a P90 compared to a PAF?

thanks,

bj

The P90 is more centered (midrange), the PAF is mor spread. A common trait of all humbuckers is a tendency to have the buttom a little muddy whereas a single coil PU, including the P90, has a clearer definition of the buttom sounds. To my ears each tone in chords stand out clearer with single coil PUs, and the overall tonal balance between top and buttom is better. I prefer P90s to humbuckers for that reason. I have a 1961 ES 175 D on which I have swapped the original PAF for a humbucker shaped P90 in the neck position, and I like the sound better. I did it ever so careful and keep the original PAF for reinstallation in case of of future sale (will likey not happen in my lifetime, but my son doesn't play guitar). The trade off is the greater tendency of the single coil to hum and pick up noise.

That said, the sound difference is minor, and listeners will likely not hear the difference. And many players love PAF and sound great with them. Wes and Kenny Burrell sounded great with PAFs. I do find that Jim Hall sounded better with the P90 in the 50s than with the PAF later (exactly the difference between less and more muddy).

[customxke]

One of my favorite guitars is my '56 ES-175DN. I much prefer p90s over PAFs, but its really a personal choice. I think good p90s sound like a nice old record; full of character, and the tiniest bit primitive. P90s tend to be a little more mid-rangey, at least to my ears. When I've played with a Hammond player, the p90'd guitars tend to sit on top of everything, whereas I've had trouble with PAF guitars, and had to turn up louder than I'd like for solos. Of course, these were guitars that were responding to my hands, and my note choices. Everything I said here might be the opposite of what you find to be true.

[Franz 1997]

Just to add a bit to this good descriptions, I find the P90 a better match with lam-top guitars eg 175s, with their denser-sounding tops, and the HB a better match with brighter, more transparent carved-tops. I agree that the P90 noise is not really an issue, so for me it's not the tradeoff factor. I find the tradeoff to be the bottom string clarity of the P90 vs the top string fatness of the HB - I try to have the best of both worlds by lowering the bass side of the HB and raising the bottom polepieces to approximate a single coil sound on the bottom. Not the same, of course, but it does work to a degree.
For some reason the old Guild HB1 humbuckers sound right in between the 2- maybe that's why Jim Hall had them in his D'A. They are underwound by PAF standards, and very clear on the bottom.