Help on jazz box midrange price

[hed_b94]

Untill now I've been playing alone on my classical, but now I want a jazz hollow guitar.
I have about 1000-1500 dollars for it and I'd love to hear about good guitars

Also, in my area there aren't many jazz boxes, and if there are it's only the expensive gibsons, so I might need to order it online...

[djelley]

I recently found a used Eastman in that price range and am extremely impressed with the quality, sound and playability.

[hed_b94]

Found where?

And I've seen one guitar in my area that I might buy- Godin 5th Avenue Kingpin P90.
Didn't have a chance to check it out yet, but what do you think about it?

[mr. beaumont]

You;re just about in the range of a used Heritage or Guild.

Get a lot more for your money.

I have a single pickup non-cutaway Kingpin that I really like--but it only cost me $500! I just feel like the two pickup cutaway model is too expensive based on that.

[hed_b94]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

You;re just about in the range of a used Heritage or Guild.

Get a lot more for your money.

I have a single pickup non-cutaway Kingpin that I really like--but it only cost me $500! I just feel like the two pickup cutaway model is too expensive based on that.

It's what you are describing, one pickup no cutway. There's really no need to spend it all if there's a good guitar in half the price. Buying Guild or Heritage will probably mean to order it online, which sounds risky to me, in many ways.

[djelley]

Originally Posted by hed_b94

Found where?

And I've seen one guitar in my area that I might buy- Godin 5th Avenue Kingpin P90.
Didn't have a chance to check it out yet, but what do you think about it?

Ebay. I've bought and sold a TON of guitars on ebay, almost always with very good luck if you know what you're doing.

As for the Godin - I own all of the Kingpin models and really like them. The CWII is my favorite, and I really don't think that it is overpriced at all. Especially considering the new "Jazz" model that they have introduced and will sell for a street price of $1800. Now THAT is overpriced!

I put flatwounds on my CWII and it is a very nice jazz box. Not as nice as the Eastman, but very nice.

[NiAg]

>>> now I want a jazz hollow guitar.

OK, but that covers a remarkable range of types of guitar.

>>>I have about 1000-1500 dollars

And that covers a very large number of very suitable guitars.

What do you want to play? Where? With anyone else? What will they be playing?

Find a mirror. Are you going to be at this for a number of years? Do you eventually get the fancy-ass thing in the end anyway?

Many searches start as the one do-it-all guitar. Then after that a player looks for a few more specialised instruments.

Others just start gathering guitars in no apparent order.

You can save money by going right to where you will be in the end anyway.

No mater what: BUDGET ABOUT $200 FOR A THOROUGH SET-UP BY SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

EDIT: In all practicality, you might do well to find how you will get work done on a guitar first, THEN ask that person about what you plan to buy.

If you note that a set-up is part of the picture, and find person with good experience and knowledge (and who listens, and who isn't a hack hired for low$$$ by a subcontractor to GC, and who does not have just enough luthio-knowledge to be dangerous...) this may open your view regarding some online or 'Bay possibilities.

All in my opinion.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by NiAg

>>>I have about 1000-1500 dollars

And that covers a very large number of very suitable guitars.

What do you want to play? Where? With anyone else? What will they be playing?

Agreed. Also, agreed about the GC setup, avoid it unless you know the person who is doing the work. In Chicago the repairs are done by Third Coast in-house at GC, and they do very good work (had a setup done at 3rd Coast location).

@hed_b94
Acoustic? Electric? Can you point out some guitars you have been looking at and why? What are some sound examples you like?

[NiAg]

Yeah, I do not mean a blanket knock on GC. The guy at my local GC is quite good. But man, he drives over an hour to get to the GC, and makes about the same now as I made in 1979 - and I did not make all that much in 1979.

The area GC'c have a contract with a company (easy enough to find the name, but I'll avoid mentioning it) that then hires out the actual work at very low wages to a wide mix of people. Some fine, but working for low $$$ for various reasons, some un-fine.

The 2011 luthiery bizz, as regards setups and repairs, is an incredible mix of great and way-un-great. Maybe it has always been this way,...

[hed_b94]

I didn't say specifics because I wanted to get many ideas, but here it is-
I will need it for a small jazz combo and a big band, in both I comp and have solos.
I'm looking mostly for that fat traditional jazz sound, and I will play mostly standards with groups, and chord-melody arrangements of mine alone.
It doesn't need to be acoustic, I will use it through an amp.

I haven't tried any guitars I could refer to, but I like the sound of Wes on 'Boss Guitar', or John Pizzarelli's sound...


And I have a friend who is a luthier and do great set-ups, so it's not an issue. GC = guitar center? I admit I'm not really sure what you guys are talking about right now..

[spiral]

Originally Posted by NiAg

Yeah, I do not mean a blanket knock on GC. The guy at my local GC is quite good. But man, he drives over an hour to get to the GC, and makes about the same now as I made in 1979 - and I did not make all that much in 1979.

Totally agree. I think Chicago may be the exception since 3rd Coast is good and maintains their own clients. It took me 5 repair places before i found someone that didn't actually screw up the guitar i brought them (thanks to the reco from NSJ).

Originally Posted by hed_b94

It doesn't need to be acoustic, I will use it through an amp.

I haven't tried any guitars I could refer to, but I like the sound of Wes on 'Boss Guitar', or John Pizzarelli's sound...

Just knowing you are plugging in is a big help. I would recommend getting something with a set-in pickup. This will give you the widest range of tonal options. Nearly every pickup maker has a Gibson/PAF-sized pickup you can easily swap in.

[NiAg]

OK, specific possibilities"

Epi 175: Cheap, sounds great. PU swaps are popular suggestions, but I think this is MUCH more because they are easy to understand and afford vs. because they make any significant difference vs. a minor amp tweak.

I have been at this for 30+ years, and everybody gravitates to a $60 to $100 "upgrade" regardless of the actual benefit. (OK, these days the price range for the beloved upgrade may be more like $100 to $200.)

EPI Joe Pass: Cheap sounds great. Same suggestion to leave it stock and put the money into a snakeskin blazer instead.

EP Broadway: Now we are getting into a more resonant box with some dead spots, but a very good sound for the $$$. If you absolutely love a 17" box, then get your luthier to try a simple soundpost under the bridge to calm down the resonant peaks in the design.

Guild X-180: This is hard to find, but a home-run within your budget. I have one and it is the best maple 16" box I have ever tried. Weird.

Guild X-150: In your budget and a fine hunk o' maple with a mahog' neck. Sounds great.

Guild X-170: In your budget and a thinline box with a soundpost. Smooth response and good feedback resistance.

EDIT; The X-180 has a 1 11/16 nut width, but most 170's will have the economy seating nut width of 1 5/8. I find 1 5/8 to be too narrow.

[hed_b94]

Originally Posted by NiAg

OK, specific possibilities"

Epi 175: Cheap, sounds great. PU swaps are popular suggestions, but I think this is MUCH more because they are easy to understand and afford vs. because they make any significant difference vs. a minor amp tweak.

I have been at this for 30+ years, and everybody gravitates to a $60 to $100 "upgrade" regardless of the actual benefit. (OK, these days the price range for the beloved upgrade may be more like $100 to $200.)

EPI Joe Pass: Cheap sounds great. Same suggestion to leave it stock and put the money into a snakeskin blazer instead.

EP Broadway: Now we are getting into a more resonant box with some dead spots, but a very good sound for the $$$. If you absolutely love a 17" box, then get your luthier to try a simple soundpost under the bridge to calm down the resonant peaks in the design.

Guild X-180: This is hard to find, but a home-run within your budget. I have one and it is the best maple 16" box I have ever tried. Weird.

Guild X-150: In your budget and a fine hunk o' maple with a mahog' neck. Sounds great.

Guild X-170: In your budget and a thinline box with a soundpost. Smooth response and good feedback resistance.

EDIT; The X-180 has a 1 11/16 nut width, but most 170's will have the economy seating nut width of 1 5/8. I find 1 5/8 to be too narrow.

Thanks. I also think 1 5/8 might me too narrow for me, since classical has way more, and the solid body I have is 1 11/16.

I tried looking for x180, and found none

[NiAg]

>>> I also think 1 5/8 might me too narrow for me, since classical has way more,

Yeah, I have two buns in the oven right now. The nylon string will look classical, bit I cheated the nut width down from a typical 52 to 53 mm to a touch under 1 7/8. The thin jazz box will have my favorite 1 3/4 nut.

Sorry on the 180. It is not so much that it is that much better than some 175s, but that it costs so much less.

There are other Guild maple archtops that are often out there used. The Starfire II, or various CE-somthingorothers. Its just that with Guild you have to watch out for the narrow nuts. There are 170s out there with 1 11/16 though.

[hed_b94]

What do you think about the Goding 5th Avenue Kingpin p90 that i've brought up before? I'm going to check it in a few days, I might be able to trade it for my epiphone les paul custom plus in my local music store.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by hed_b94

What do you think about the Goding 5th Avenue Kingpin p90 that i've brought up before? I'm going to check it in a few days, I might be able to trade it for my epiphone les paul custom plus in my local music store.

That is a fully hollow guitar that is more acoustic focused. If you like a P90 sound, look at the Epiphone Casino. Fantastic guitars and can do lots of styles easily, though pretty different from the thick "Wes" tone of a Gibson humbucker. P90's will give you a very articulate, twang with lots of attack, something more akin to the DeArmond sound.

[edit] What i think you should do is look at the Ibanez Artcores. You get a ton of guitar for your money, and you can put in a PAF-sized P90, or PAF copy, or whatever. Everything NiAg suggested was equally good.

[hed_b94]

Originally Posted by spiral

That is a fully hollow guitar that is more acoustic focused. .

Well, wouldn't fully hollow guitar that is more acoustic focused give a nice jazz tone? I know Wes montgomery's 5L is fully hollowed.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by hed_b94

Well, wouldn't fully hollow guitar that is more acoustic focused give a nice jazz tone? I know Wes montgomery's 5L is fully hollowed.

Totally different guitars / pickup. L5 is a carved top with set in humbucker. The Godin is laminate w/ P90 (single-coil) attached on the top. If you want that thick Wes sound, you should be looking at set-in pickups (humbuckers). I think the carved top is likely less critical. Playing with your thumb and flatwounds will thicken it up too. If you like the Godin, go for it.

Kingpin

YouTube Video

Ibanez AF75 w/ thumb and Chromes

YouTube Video

[joe b]

I have recently started seeing Asian made Hofner archtops for right at $1,000 new. Might be worth a look.

[hed_b94]

Originally Posted by spiral

Totally different guitars / pickup. L5 is a carved top with set in humbucker. The Godin is laminate w/ P90 (single-coil) attached on the top. If you want that thick Wes sound, you should be looking at set-in pickups (humbuckers). I think the carved top is likely less critical. Playing with your thumb and flatwounds will thicken it up too. If you like the Godin, go for it.

Kingpin


Ibanez AF75 w/ thumb and Chromes

I liked 2nd's one tone, and the 1st's one is pretty trebly for me. But with all do respect for that player, I need to check the guitar myself. Who knows how he set the tone in the guitar or in the amp. If that guitar is really that treble and thin then it's not for me.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by hed_b94

I liked 2nd's one tone, and the 1st's one is pretty trebly for me. But with all do respect for that player, I need to check the guitar myself. Who knows how he set the tone in the guitar or in the amp. If that guitar is really that treble and thin then it's not for me.

Of course. The videos were not in place of you playing either one. Just trying to show the difference between pickups. P90's have more high-end definition / twang. Humbuckers tend to have a little more body / softer high end.

It's really hard to buy guitars virtually. But if you are limited to a small budget, or are in a remote location where you can't drive to a big music store, just make sure the mailorder store has a return policy.

[mr. beaumont]

Actually, I think the high end in the second example is a lot more prominent--and a bit harsh.

Neither clip is the ONLY sound avaialble on these instruments, but they can at least give you an idea of some possible tones...

[spiral]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Actually, I think the high end in the second example is a lot more prominent--and a bit harsh.

Ya. Part of it is fingernail picking. Maybe someone else can find a good Artcore jazz demo. That's the best i could do with a quick glance. I'll keep looking.

[hed_b94]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Neither clip is the ONLY sound avaialble on these instruments, but they can at least give you an idea of some possible tones...

Of course. But as far as I know, P90 is a single pickup, which is brighter than humbucker. but Im really a noob in this area, so if I'm wrong please tell me. And as an owner of the guitar I'd like to know your opinion about it sound regarding my 'demands'.

About their sound: I really didn't like either, and I think it's mostly because of their finger technique.. The first one has a nice sound in the end imo

and also, I've noticed that the Godin is a cutaway guitar, while the one i'm thinking about isn't, so maybe it has a little thiner sound.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by hed_b94

Of course. But as far as I know, P90 is a single pickup, which is brighter than humbucker. but Im really a noob in this area, so if I'm wrong please tell me. And as an owned of the guitar I'd like to know your opinion about it sound regarding my 'demands'.

About their sound: I really didn't like either, and I think it's mostly because of their finger technique.. The first one has a nice sound in the end imo

and also, I've noticed that the Godin is a cutaway guitar, while the one i'm thinking about isn't, so maybe it has a little thiner sound.

I think i caused more confusion than clarity with the clips (i'll try to find a more representative example). Let's just say in general a P90 is a single coil and will have more high-end clarity. A humbucker will have have a thicker sound which i'm guessing you are after. (this is without getting into the humbucking P90's or single-coil-voiced HB's)

At the end of the day the body differences are going to affect ergonomics more than they are going to affect amplified sound in both of the above cases. Sounds like you need to go and play some types of each, because to Jeff's point, what they sound / feel like in your hands is going to be even more different.

[NiAg]

Hed,

If you don't mind me saying so:

From what you have said through the thread, you would do very well to catch a bus to somewhere that has a decent assortment of guitars of the type(s) that interest you.

Picks, strings, and personal technique will affect your sound more than a cutaway.

In my opinion, either go for an absolute classic guitar with a known-to-death sound (Tele, 175, 335, X-500, etc.) , or hop on a Greyhound and try some out for yourself.

This thread can be fun and entertaining, so I do not present a wet blanket here. But it sounds like you could do with some hands-on unless you are ready to adapt to a classic box design to make it work for you (which is do-able with string, pick, and technique work).

[mr. beaumont]

P90's are definitely a little brighter than a standard humbucker, but still capable of a lot of smoky, classic jazz tones.

I don't think the cutaway effects the tone too much.

Of course, the amp is a huge part of the equation.

If you want to check 'em out, the recordings of "laura" and "autumn in new york" on my site are the one pickup non cutaway godin kingpin (the amp for those recordings is a polytone minibrute III)

[hed_b94]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

P90's are definitely a little brighter than a standard humbucker, but still capable of a lot of smoky, classic jazz tones.

I don't think the cutaway effects the tone too much.

Of course, the amp is a huge part of the equation.

If you want to check 'em out, the recordings of "laura" and "autumn in new york" on my site are the one pickup non cutaway godin kingpin (the amp for those recordings is a polytone minibrute III)

You have very nice sound there (in laura. couldn't find autumn in ny). I think I'm having a little confusion with 'bright' and 'treble'. Although similiar they are not the same, am I right?

[Doctor Jeff]

I also am a big fan of the Godin. I am appreciating it more and more--one of the most versatile guitars out there IMO. You won't miss the bridge pickup for jazz, but you will enjoy how it can go from a dark mellow sound to a loud growl just by varying the attack and where you play over the soundboard. Be sure to adjust the action and strings to your preference.

I also have an Epi Joe Pass which I love as well, but in terms of jazz it's basically a one-sound pony with the neck humbucker.

In terms of quality I don't think you will find anything better than the Godin for under $1000. It's flawless. The only issue I have with it is aesthetic--I am not sold on the satin finish, in fact I think should be confined to necks not bodies, but it seems to be very popular on all types of guitars these days, even Martins and Taylors.

[hed_b94]

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

I also am a big fan of the Godin. I am appreciating it more and more--one of the most versatile guitars out there IMO. You won't miss the bridge pickup for jazz, but you will enjoy how it can go from a dark mellow sound to a loud growl just by varying the attack and where you play over the soundboard. Be sure to adjust the action and strings to your preference.

I also have an Epi Joe Pass which I love as well, but in terms of jazz it's basically a one-sound pony with the neck humbucker.

In terms of quality I don't think you will find anything better than the Godin for under $1000. It's flawless. The only issue I have with it is aesthetic--I am not sold on the satin finish, in fact I think should be confined to necks not bodies, but it seems to be very popular on all types of guitars these days, even Martins and Taylors.

Good to know. I think I will put flatwounds 0.012 strings on it. Maybe D'addrio jazz chromes

And what do you think about this guitar: Reverend Manta Ray HB-FM?
Also, I've found a store that have Heritage guitar. Any suggestions there? how about the h575?