Setting the Guitar Intonation by adjusting string length

[wafer-custom-guitars]

Setting the Intonation is the process of changing the scale of a guitar by adjusting the string length, and is most commonly done at the bridge. We do this be comparing the note of each open string with that when played at the 12th fret. This is the halfway point along the string, and the note played at the 12th fret is one octave higher than that played on the open string.
In a perfect world we could simply measure the exact length from the open position ‘nut’ to the 12th fret and double it to find the optimum bridge position, and if the strings were very, very thin this might to true, but normally, the length increases with the string gauge.
To do this adjustment very accurately, download the free instrument tuner software ‘Tuner12.exe" from the website www.techmind.org/audio/. Which gives shows the played note in both frequency and musical note in percentage flat or sharp. The guitar should be plugged into the computer microphone port. One string at a time tune the string in the open position and then check the tune at the 12th fret. If the reading at the 12th fret is sharp the string length should be shortened at the bridge, or lengthened if flat, and the process of tuning in the open position and checking at the 12th fret repeated. After finding the best possible adjustment you can also confirm this by checking the accuracy of notes played at other frets.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by wafer-custom-guitars

One string at a time tune the string in the open position and then check the tune at the 12th fret. If the reading at the 12th fret is sharp the string length should be shortened at the bridge, or lengthened if flat

This information is incorrect, it should be the opposite.

Flat=shorten the length

Sharp= increase the length

[NiAg]

In my opinion, this is a mix of over-simplifications, misleading conversational "info", and the occasional out-and-out wrong-o-sity.

Edit: There are too many minor (and some major) errors to even start with a point-by-point discussion of the original post.

This is just my opinion, but intonation is a great subject to discuss and work through on a forum; this may just be an unfortunate way to kick it off.

Ya know Wafer,

It is great to see that you are making guitars, and I wish you all success with your business. Likewise "viral" marketing can work even for a micro business, so have at it. But for pity's sake please don't use bad pseudo-tech "explanations". This may be more like bacterial marketing.

Knowing just enough to be dangerous, can be an arguable dis-service.

In my opinion.

[hot ford coupe]

I check my intonation regularly with my Seiko electric tuner I bought close to 20 years ago. That's about as accurate as I need to get. Unless someone has a very unusual ear, minor differences in flat and sharp cannot truly be distinguished when they're so close. Besides, with a vintage guitar with a wooden bridge, the only strings you can intonate are the high and low E. If you try to adjust all the other ones, you'll be adjusting until the cows come home and never succeed.

[brad4d8]

>If the reading at the 12th fret is sharp the string length should be shortened at the bridge, or lengthened if flat<

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

This information is incorrect, it should be the opposite.

Flat=shorten the length

Sharp= increase the length

HUH? I think you misread the instructions.
Brad

[SamBooka]

"if the fretted note is too high.. move the saddle back"

I have been repeating this mantra in my head for litterally 25 years.

[NiAg]

With the advent of cheap and reasonably accurate tuners, a far more useful "best-fit" position can be found by checking a number of notes between (roughly) the 7th and 17th frets.

Notes below the 7th are affected to a great extent by the (typically) too high nut slots, and notes above the 17th are often affected by inharmonicity to the point that they are misleading for setting the bridge compensation.

In my opinion.

>>> with a vintage guitar with a wooden bridge, the only strings you can intonate are the high and low E.

In my experience, this (only the E strings) will not give the best all around best-fit intonation.

First - if the nut is too high, then you never be able to reasonably compensate at the bridge, regardless of the strings you emphasize.

For many straight-saddle wooden bridges, most players notice a positive difference if you set the bridge for the low E and the B. (A slightly flat high E string and wound G string is almost always preferable to a sharp B string as you play up the FB.)

Or, for an advanced maneuver, set the bass end of the saddle for the A, then compromise the treble end between the best-fit position for the high E and the B.

No need to have fits over the lack of a t-o-m bridge. Just add some minor tweaks to the old method of setting only the E strings and only at the 12th fret.

But, in my opinion, do get those nut slots down first.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by SamBooka

"if the fretted note is too high.. move the saddle back"

I have been repeating this mantra in my head for litterally 25 years.

"Swords and Stones"--Long and sharp, short and flat. That's how I remember it.

[whiskywheels]

Isn't the OP spam? Surely it's just a thinly disguised advert?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by NiAg

Ya know Wafer,

It is great to see that you are making guitars, and I wish you all success with your business. Likewise "viral" marketing can work even for a micro business, so have at it. But for pity's sake please don't use bad pseudo-tech "explanations". This may be more like bacterial marketing.

Knowing just enough to be dangerous, can be an arguable dis-service.

In my opinion.

This is spam 2.0, just reposting stuff from other forums and then never joining the discussion. Same with the capacitor thread. My 3 Turing tests have come up not-human.

Setting the Guitar Intonation by adjusting the length of the string. - E-Gitarre - Gitarren-Forum.de

It's great if people get something out of it but he isn't here to have a discussion.

[edit] "bacterial marketing" is an amazing phrase i am stealing that.

[NiAg]

I rather understand that this is spam for the amazing, if oddly conceived, Strats from Wafer. Nonetheless it is an interesting enough discussion to have in my opinion, and even if it is Wafer-Bot on the other end, the view of intonation that he expressed is not uncommon I think.

I'll need to copyright "bacterial marketing" I guess. I just figured that 'tropical fungus marketing' sounded clumsy to say.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by NiAg

Nonetheless it is an interesting enough discussion to have in my opinion, and even if it is Wafer-Bot on the other end, the view of intonation that he expressed is not uncommon I think.

Agreed. I just noticed in other threads people were posting like they guy was really asking a question. Maybe we will find a cure for GAS in one of these threads.

[caravan]

Sometimes I will compare the harmonic above the 13th fret while pressing down at the first fret, with the note that's pressed down at the 13th fret. For example: "F", pressing down on the 1st fret while barely touching at the 13th fret (called the second harmonic), with the fretted first fret "F" (called the first harmonic).

This is more accurate because sometimes the nut is slightly off or the nut slots aren't deep enough.

There's been times when I'm listening to a good guitarist play notes in the upper register that sound sharp. It makes me wanna just go up there on stage and adjust his guitar for him!

[NiAg]

>>> [using the 13th fret] is more accurate because sometimes the nut is slightly off or the nut slots aren't deep enough.

In my opinion it is rare to find a misplaced nut. I mean that manufacturers want the nut at the exact end up the calculated scale from which the fret positions are determined - and they regularly succeed. (I am using 1/17.817 for my opinion.)

But there are several intonation errors that occur at the nut EVEN when it is in exactly the "correct" position relative to the distance to the frets.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by NiAg

But there are several intonation errors that occur at the nut EVEN when it is in exactly the "correct" position relative to the distance to the frets.

Which gets you into his craziness: True Temperament - Fretting systems

[NiAg]

In my opinion, that [Fretting system] is completely unnecessary - and profoundly problematic in any band environment except maybe a power trio with a fretless bass player.

If you look at the fret shapes you can see what he is doing. Good luck with a basic Bb Rhythm Changes, the horn players will kill you.

There are some pretty simple concepts at work here. Even some approximate nut compensation can help to a remarkable extent.

Unfortunately the two commercialized compensated nuts are working so hard to "productize" their technology that they each raise problems - in my view.

The first and most ham-fisted improvement would be to move every nut forward by a touch over 0.5 mm. In my opinion, this would improve the intonation of pretty much every guitar. I am doing this on a new build for myself.

But a far more sophisticated move would be a compensated nut. One for a plain G and one for a wound.

Even better would be a compensated nut cut for each individual guitar. But this gets silly-expensive and the improvement would be really slight even over the basic "slide the nut forward .05 mm".

And ALL of this is minor compared to simply getting the nut slots down to an optimal height.

Blah, blah, blah,...

[hot ford coupe]

Originally Posted by NiAg

With the advent of cheap and reasonably accurate tuners, a far more useful "best-fit" position can be found by checking a number of notes between (roughly) the 7th and 17th frets.

Notes below the 7th are affected to a great extent by the (typically) too high nut slots, and notes above the 17th are often affected by inharmonicity to the point that they are misleading for setting the bridge compensation.

In my opinion.

>>> with a vintage guitar with a wooden bridge, the only strings you can intonate are the high and low E.

In my experience, this (only the E strings) will not give the best all around best-fit intonation.

First - if the nut is too high, then you never be able to reasonably compensate at the bridge, regardless of the strings you emphasize.

For many straight-saddle wooden bridges, most players notice a positive difference if you set the bridge for the low E and the B. (A slightly flat high E string and wound G string is almost always preferable to a sharp B string as you play up the FB.)

Or, for an advanced maneuver, set the bass end of the saddle for the A, then compromise the treble end between the best-fit position for the high E and the B.

No need to have fits over the lack of a t-o-m bridge. Just add some minor tweaks to the old method of setting only the E strings and only at the 12th fret.

But, in my opinion, do get those nut slots down first.

Thanks, NiAg. I'll give that a try and see what the difference is. I'm always looking for answers to the holes in my own knowledge base. Being basically self taught later in life, I have to rely on you guys for the right info.

[jzucker]

Originally Posted by NiAg

And ALL of this is minor compared to simply getting the nut slots down to an optimal height.

Blah, blah, blah,...

Or you could just play an imperfect instrument...Just like Wes, Benson, Pass and other greats did.

[NiAg]

>>> Or you could just play an imperfect instrument...Just like Wes, Benson, Pass and other greats did.

Absolutely agreed that we are talking about tweaks that many would find absolutely not needed, and arguably a distraction (or obsessive diversion) from the real business of playing the guitar.

In my opinion, if a player is happy with a given guitar, then why should anyone to tell him that he needs to be unhappy with the instrument for some tech reason?

On the other hand, I have not really noticed players getting worse due to an improved setup.

But yes, thanks for the reminder and sanity check.

[Davidh]

Originally Posted by NiAg

>>> Or you could just play an imperfect instrument...Just like Wes, Benson, Pass and other greats did.

Absolutely agreed that we are talking about tweaks that many would find absolutely not needed, and arguably a distraction (or obsessive diversion) from the real business of playing the guitar.

In my opinion, if a player is happy with a given guitar, then why should anyone to tell him that he needs to be unhappy with the instrument for some tech reason?

On the other hand, I have not really noticed players getting worse due to an improved setup.

But yes, thanks for the reminder and sanity check.

+ 1.

And I kind of like the 'tropical fungus marketing' tag .

[SamBooka]

Originally Posted by spiral

This is spam 2.0, just reposting stuff from other forums and then never joining the discussion. Same with the capacitor thread. My 3 Turing tests have come up not-human.

Setting the Guitar Intonation by adjusting the length of the string. - E-Gitarre - Gitarren-Forum.de

It's great if people get something out of it but he isn't here to have a discussion.

[edit] "bacterial marketing" is an amazing phrase i am stealing that.

LOL.. I just noticed

[Aristotle]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

"Swords and Stones"--Long and sharp, short and flat. That's how I remember it.

I usually find memory devices more difficult to remember and manage than the information itself. In ths case swords are flat depending on which way you look at them, and rocks can be sharp.

I use basic science. The shorter the string (the faster it vibrates), the higher the note. That's why the 12th fret note (or any fret) is a higher note than the open string to begin with. So, if it's playing sharp, you don't have enough string.

Botton line: you are right, and wafer is wrong.

Those who play nylon string guitars get this message reinforced constantly. Just lean one way or the other, especially above the 7th fret on the D-string and you can easily knock the pitch up or down a quarter-tone.

[SamBooka]

Originally Posted by jzucker

Or you could just play an imperfect instrument...Just like Wes, Benson, Pass and other greats did.

+1 but unlike Wes and those other clowns I play an imprefect instrument imperfectly