what is jazz tone or sound?

[telemust]

Hi gents...i really like to have your opinions about this topic...what is jazz tone? is it tone of Joe Pass, Wes or Pat Metheny or John Mclauglin, Larry Coryell or Bill frisell...these guys are jazz players and their tone is different,so are their gear relatively i mean... so what do you understand? is there only one tone or many different ? when i say i want to buy a decent jazz amp do we understand the same thing for example ? merry christmas

[Scolohofo]

A jazztone is that sound you can make sings.

[mr. beaumont]

There's as many "jazz" tones as there are jazz players. I often hear non-jazz players tell me "all jazz guitar players sound the same," but I can tell the difference between Wes, and Pass, and Howard Roberts, and Kenny Burrell just as easy as a rock player can tell the difference between Hendrix or Santana or Eric Johnson.

A lot of folks equate a jazz tone with the classic, unadorned, somewhat dark archtop straight into an amp sound. There's a reason folks like this tone--it's warm, the notes decay quickly which means rapid-fire ines don't disintegrate into a wash of mush, and the lack of high end harmonics make close-voiced and dissonant chords and note clusters appealing to the ear. Most of your classic jazz players sounded like this not so much for the afforementioned reasons though--they used what was available. Your classic players of the 50's cut their teeth in the 40's, developed a sound and a relationship with a guitar they liked and stuck with it long after solid bodies had hit the scene.

Many of the players who came around after used the tools their idols used. And a tradition was started.

Nowadays, folks are much more open to what a jazz guitar/tone can be. But there's still something to be said for this "classic" sound--however it's arrived at, and many jazzers will use at least some elemnts of it.

Cats like frisell are a exception to the rule, as his use of effects is masterful and part of his identity. Other players use "colored" sounds as well, to varying degrees of success (Sco's distorted tone gives him the sustain his horn-like lines call for, whereas Mike Sterns chorus/delay combo often adds nothing to the music, IMHO)

So when choosing gear, you simply need to think about the sound that will be "your sound." Use precendent as a guide, but don't be afraid to blaze new trails.

[Stackabones]

All of the above and none of the above. Same thing for all that follows.

[hot ford coupe]

Those guys speak the musical truth.

[abracadabra]

As a noob I was advised to play a low output neck humbucker, flatwound strings, volume slightly off max, tone rolled down to taste, and through a very clean-sounding amp.

That got me started nicely, but bearing in mind what everyone else already said. There are no rules, only conventions.

[GuitaRoland]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

There's as many "jazz" tones as there are jazz players.

Totally agree!

/R

[The Poppster]

Well said Mr B.

I think it's very easy to get bound-up by 'genre', whereas what we ultimately find appealing is simply just 'music'! I read in Grant Green's biography that his response to an interviewer was that 'he didn't play jazz; he played music'! Similarly, in an interview, Joe Pass' response to the question "Have you always played jazz?", was "I've always improvised; jazz and improvisation go together".

My point is, I think all these 'jazz' greats play what is essentially THEIR 'sound', then others come along and categorise that sound! But hey, I'm no expert, just my opinion!

[hot ford coupe]

Originally Posted by abracadabra

There are no rules, only conventions.

BINGO !! You can't say it any better than that. I remember going to see a Dizzy Gillespie concert back in 1990. His guitar player played an ES335 and had the chorus on all night. It sounded way different from the standard convention. The only thing is the swirly sound of chorus makes me queasy so I can't use it.

[Jazzaluk]

I saw a great jazz quartet play backdrop music to the silent movie "Metropolis". The guitar player was using a Fender Jaguar and laying down these beautiful jazz solos with a heavy surfer sound. It was awesome. Made me want to buy a Jaguar. But then ... I thought of my repertoire and decided to stick with the arch top.

[life_with_a_song]

Originally Posted by GuitaRoland

Totally agree!

/R

Yes--very well said. I started out learning jazz around sixteen years ago after having played rock/pop and studying classical for several of ththirteen prior years I'd been playing guitar. I got a Gibson ES-135 (the one with the P-100 pickups) and a teach yourself course. Learned lots of chords and arrangments and discovered how much you get can from turning the amp and guitar tone down. I also experimented with many picks and gradually worked toward the thickest I could find at the time--a Dunlop 206--which I filed and buffed much like my nails (for classical). I had a Fender Princeton chorus and played many a solo and band gig with this little guy, and was thoroughly happy with the clean, "smoky" tones I could coax with the pick as well as fingerstyle.

All of this changed when I got a full-body archtop and tube amp (Ampeg Reverberocket) after hearing Kenny Burrell. These days, my sound ranges from clean to smoky with a slight edge--more like Kenny's at times. I find that by varying my technique, I can live at that point where I can go from clean to smoky/edgy. I also went through the whole switching pickups thing, and found that capacitors are just as likely to have an effect--and it's all been fun and most of all worth it to go on this journey! Have fun!

My short answer to your question: It's that sound that you hear in your head--it's that sound that lets you say what you have to share and what you're feeling when you're playing.

[mongrel]

Different folks have different sounds in their heads. In mine, there are several: Jimmy Raney single notes that sound like they were picked around the 17 fret and are so round that you expect them to drip on the floor; Grant Green notes that sound like they start out a couple of frets low and, in a micro-second, bloom at the exact frequency; almost anything played by John McLaughlin especially in session or on stage with Miles; and, everything I've ever heard played by Pat Martino, especially on his Gibson signature guitar. Those notes seem pure with no harmonics I can hear. Also a huge fan of Frisell, Coryell and Jeff Beck although the only time I've caught Coryell live was leading the Eleventh House around 1975 in a local roadside bar.

[Flyin' Brian]

There is no "jazz sound".

[The Poppster]

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

There is no "jazz sound".

Exactly!! That's the point I was trying to make, but you 'cut to the chase' Brian. Well said!

[mangotango]

Played the Xmas gig on Friday withthe workshop band I'm in. Lots of horns, bass & drums, pianist, and 3 guitarists (alternating on tunes, not all together).

One guy had a Gibson ES175 into an AER compact 60 and played mostly with his thumb, another a Telecaster into a Deluxe Reverb Reissue with a couple of pedals, and I had my D'Angelico Vestax NYL-5, shallow body New Yorker with floating pickup into a Henriksen Jazzamp.

So which if us had the True Jazz Sound?

Answer; all of us. Insofar as we were playing guitar with a jazz group, each of us had our own "Jazz Guitar Sound". That's all there is, far as I'm concerned.

[cosmic gumbo]

My tuba has killer jazz tone, I prefer it over my sousaphone.

[Banksia]

I have a range of archtops now but I still think the best "jazz" tone I ever had was 30 years ago with a Fender Jaguar into a Vox AC30.

[cjm]

I agree there is a huge range of guitar sounds that have been, and will continue to be, employed within a genre (and sub genres) defined as being jazz.

At the same time, insisting there is no jazz sound defies convention.

Charlie Byrd certainly played jazz on his nylon strung classical guitars -- but that isn't really a part of the question most people ask and seek an answer to. For the majority it is something more specific.

What we commonly refer to today as "the jazz sound" was not the "jazz sound" 60 years ago. To be sure, it was the sound jazz guitarists got from the electric guitar back then -- but so did almost everyone else. It was the "normal" sound of an electric guitar -- clean and without distortion -- but not "twangy" or terribly treble. Texas Swing players used that sound in road houses. "Society Band" guitarists used that sound. Finger pickers like Merle Travis used the same equipment with the same sonic qualities.

Technique and the body of material played is what distinguished each genre -- not unique tonal qualities of the guitar and amplifier.

This was the milieu into which Leo Fender introduced the Broadcaster/Telecaster and then the Stratocaster, and into which Gibson released the Les Paul a short time later. Which should answer the question, "Can I get a jazz tone from my Strat?"

(Of course you can. That's what they were originally intended to provide...albeit mostly marketed to country players looking for the same basic sound. With appropriate strings, a good amp, and the neck pickup selected, it's difficult not to get a "jazz tone" from a Telecaster or a Strat unless you decide to pick the thing back by the bridge.)

And although each player has his or her own "jazz guitar sound," it is possible to define the term as encompassing a range of sounds typified by the work of (for example) Herb Ellis, Barney Kessel, Wes Montgomery, Tal Farlow, Kenny Burrell, Johnny Smith, etc. Each sounds (or sounded) unique -- but all have far more in common with each other than any of them do with more recently developed styles employing electronic effects ranging from "fuzz" to "flangers," and solid body guitars with light strings deliberately set up and played to emphasize the treble range of the instrument.

And in my experience, in person and online, almost any time some one asks about the "jazz sound" without further qualification -- what defines it -- how to get it -- their question revolves around the clean sound of an archtop electric first heard in the 1930s and refined during the 1940s and early 1950s.

And more specifically, it is the characteristic sound of an archtop with medium to heavy strings played through the neck pickup and plugged into an amp without effects or distortion and with a good midrange response.

[hot ford coupe]

That's a good reply, cjm. I like what you've said. The sound in my head I like to imitate is either the Johnny Smith sound on his D'Angelico Excel Special in the 50's and the sound of Chuck Wayne when he was with the George Shearing Quintet in the 50's. They're two completely different "jazz tones" but those are the ones I like the best.

[telemust]

thanks everyone...really nice feedbacks...by the way when you said Johnny Smith (CJM) i just went back to moonlight in vermont a masterpiece for me...that sound somehow incredible...nowadays i really enjoy with my sound (tele w/ SD neck jazz humbucker and twangy bridge a good combination) and for the neck only i use a bit compressor somehow wonderful...so personal preference...Merry Christmas!

[nado64]

the basics of a guitar jazz sound are (imo) :
-treble no bright and existing medium.
-we can hear all the notes.

the guitar in jazz is a recent instrument, so many guitarists try to be close to others instruments, like trumpet, vibe, sax,.... For example, kurt rosenwinkel has a sound close to an organ.

[Tom Karol]

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

There is no "jazz sound".

I agree. All there is are the tones I really like (and they're not all identical) and try to emulate:
Charlie Chistian, Howard Roberts, Johnny Smith, George Benson, Kenny Burrell, Attila Zoller, ...

[gianluca]

the standard jazz tone, to me, is a very warm clean and thick tone coming from heavy strings on a hollowbody guitar and through a clean amp.
the standard jazz tone is rich of meddle and basses and poor of treble.
that said, a great musician could be able to play intresting jazz lines even with a wooden board with iron yarn...

[ChrisDowning]

I don't think you should confuse a 'jazz sound' with the right sound for a song. I guess everyone knows that old style woody jazz guitar sound and as soon as you use it everyone expects a jazzy melody. But the sound isn't really what jazz is about - it's just what the audience can expect. I've sat with a Takamine flat top and sounded like ZZ Top - everyone's looking round the room wondering who's playing - change the tones and effects; and everyone's then wondering how you sound so different or who the hell is playing that Django stuff?

Two things are going on here - what's appropriate and really brings out the best in the tune - and what does the audience think they've bought for their ticket price. Audiences get confused when you use what they think is the wrong instrument for the job - so we, as musicians, respond by using and old style F hole guitar without a cutaway for chunking out swing chords or a 335 for the fusion stuff. Looks right and sounds right. Then we get asked to dep in a local blues band - out comes the Tele and the old valve amp - audience happy again. It fact you could use a 335 for just about everything you'd ever play in any style - check out what studion and session players use - Tele's and 335's.

If you want to use something off the wall for jazz it's OK - after all, why not use a Gibson Flying V or a Steve Vai Ibanez? But you'll run the risk of 'upsetting' the audience or more importantly, the person booking you - it needs to look and sound in the 'jazz zone'. Or at least until you are rich and famous when everyone calls you a rebel and an innovator!

[hot ford coupe]

Great response Chris. You're right. I never even thought about the right sound for the particular style and tune.

[markerhodes]

Flannery O'Connor wrote great short stories and had a great line about writers.
"A writer," she said, "can do anything he can get away with, but no one's ever been able to get away with very much."

One could say the same of jazz guitar players. Charlie Christian, Wes, Grant, Kenny, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, those guys could really play. They could swing and they could sing. Some were more versatile than others, some may have been comfortable with a broader range of material or in wider array of settings (-orchestra, small groups, duets, solo), but they could all play the hell out of their guitars.
The key to a jazz tone is that it allows the playing to come through clear and distinct.

[The Poppster]

ChrisDowning . . . Excellent post man! Certainly makes perfect sense to me.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by ChrisDowning

I guess everyone knows that old style woody jazz guitar sound and as soon as you use it everyone expects a jazzy melody.

I don't necessarily disagree, but it got me to thinking:

That's akin to defining the sound of a piano as old style, or old fashioned, rather than simply the sound of a piano. The implication is that it is somehow "quaint."

It also is a fact that some people detest an electric guitar sound other than the clean sound associated today with jazz. Truth be told, I'm one of them.

Instead of "the jazz sound" being a cliche in the modern world, I contend distortion and floppy strings have become the tired guitar cliche of the past 45 years or so...and that this is often employed as a "security blanket" to reassure unsophisticated audiences that, "Hey, we can rock too -- we're not just old fuddy duddy jazz players."

And if the subdued appearing archtop electric's primary, or even sole, purpose is as a visual prop, then the same must be true of the brightly painted slab, or the ratty looking "relic."

It is true that semi-solids and solids can deliver "the jazz sound," and that they're very popular among session musicians. But it is also true that most recording sessions aren't jazz sessions.

Moreover, while the acoustic properties of the electric archtop are not usually very important to the tone heard by the listening audience, the greater aural and tactile feedback to the guitarist often is, as is the effect the sound box has in "shaping" the notes played.

With the electric guitar (setting aside entirely the acoustic classical and "Gypsy" sounds), once we get away from the clean sound, it quickly becomes more a demonstration of the electronic hardware brought to the gig and musicianship takes a back seat to the fuzz, delay, chorus, flangers, etc.

[hot ford coupe]

Originally Posted by cjm

It also is a fact that some people detest an electric guitar sound other than the clean sound associated today with jazz. Truth be told, I'm one of them.
.

Oh man, is that one really true statement. I do a regular thing with a synagogue choir. Before they actually heard me, they didn't want me anywhere near the place when they found out I use an amplifier. Their first response was "Well I don't know. That's going to be way too loud for choir". When they finally heard me and heard a nice clean sweet sound that fit well with the electric piano (catch the irony here) and didn't over power anyone, they loved it. I'm not indispenible but the choir director prefers me there over me not being there by far.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by hot ford coupe

Their first response was "Well I don't know. That's going to be way too loud for choir".

That's why I maintain that a loud nasty distorted sound has become an overworked and tired cliche.

You can't even walk into a pawn shop these days to look for a wrench without being assailed by a Fender Twin cranked up to "11" while some guy whacks at some out of tune slab delivering his rendition of his special Stairway to Heaven/In A Gadda da Vida medley.