what is jazz tone or sound?

[ChrisDowning]

CJM - I think we actually agree. There's no doubt in my mind that player do use the look of an f hole archtop to look the part - but that doesn't mean I don't understand the sound that shape and design adds to the genre. And i completely agree with the comments on just amp and guitar - no effects. Although effects can enhance the timbre, it's nearly always overdone and thins out the tone of a good guitar.

Basically I think any quality guitar (and quality amp if needed) can be used for jazz. But there are some odd shapes and designs that make statements of their own that have little to do with the sound, the experience, playability, and everything to do with image. If that weren't true most marketing managers working for the big companies would be out of a job.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by ChrisDowning

CJM - I think we actually agree. There's no doubt in my mind that player do use the look of an f hole archtop to look the part - but that doesn't mean I don't understand the sound that shape and design adds to the genre. And i completely agree with the comments on just amp and guitar - no effects. Although effects can enhance the timbre, it's nearly always overdone and thins out the tone of a good guitar.

Basically I think any quality guitar (and quality amp if needed) can be used for jazz. But there are some odd shapes and designs that make statements of their own that have little to do with the sound, the experience, playability, and everything to do with image. If that weren't true most marketing managers working for the big companies would be out of a job.

Well, where does the Epiphone/Gibson Howard Roberts fit in? No f holes, just a big oval void.

You're absolutely correct that any of the three types (solid, semi, hollow -- including some flat tops) can deliver the clean jazz sound. Twenty years ago I often played bass with a superb guitarist who usually played one of several carved and/or plywood Epiphones, but who often used a Strat in rooms with bad acoustics where strange feedback problems would crop up.

And the mere existence of semi-solid guitars like the ES-335 lends credence to the idea that appearance is more important than anything else. The hollow wings and f holes don't do much on what is basically a solid body guitar.

But I do believe that the ergonomics of a light weight archtop (which to me includes aural and tactile feedback from the guitar to the guitarist) are at least as important as the visual impact of the archtop. For me, perhaps it is because I also spent so many years on the upright bass -- it is as much by feel as it is by ear.

Audiences today are accepting of the appearance of slabs -- would they be put off by the appearance of a Les Paul in a jazz setting? I don't think so.

So, in the final analysis, I think it comes down to what the individual guitarist needs in terms of "feel." To me, a slab gives me a vague sense of operating a remote control guitar, and it is slightly disorienting. Others feel like an archtop is a big quivering feedback bomb just waiting to explode.

Your comments on marketing are spot on. The performance of jazz is an art (or it should be). The tools of that art are supplied by an industry that survives by persuading sufficient numbers of performers to spend themselves broke on stuff they don't need.

[ChrisDowning]

Well my Takamine flat top with the single cutaway and sunburst is the one I would aways reach for in a jazzy situation. And nobody has ever asked where are the F holes? However I heard a guy in Tennessee, Jeff Jenkins, playing Django and swing stuff on a Martin D28 and it sounded fine. And a little later about 20 of us had a go at 'Minor Swing' on similar guitars - so it can be done and sound very good. But I have to admit that there was a nagging feeling that at any moment I was going to hear 'Arkansas Traveller' at 250BPM.