epiphones

What are your opinions regarding an epiphone? I mean all models in general. Are they just cheap wanna be gibsons or am i confused?

[RonD]

Not sure what you want to know... most Gibsons are wanna be Gibsons these days.
Some models are good, some...

[SamBooka]

Originally Posted by RonD

Not sure what you want to know... most Gibsons are wanna be Gibsons these days.
Some models are good, some...

+1
what did you have in mind?
I have a 96 gibson 165 and a 99 Epi Emp Regent.
90% of the time I play the Gibson but always say Wow when I pick up the Epi. So why play the gibson? Nicer neck and a better pickup.

Epi's are excellently built guitars from questionable parts. Gibsons these days are questionable builds of the finests materials (that said, the OEM TP on my Gibson is made in asia by the same suppliers who make Allparts bridges and (I would guess) some Epiphone parts)

[lpdeluxe]

This is a contentious issue. I have had several Epiphones, and found them to be competent but not inspiring. In rather rapid succession, I had an Epi Sheraton II which I rewired with Seymour Duncans and upgraded electronics, and a 2000 ES-335, all stock. The Gibson whupped the Epiphone in every way: the quality of the woods, the feel, and the all-important sound. I didn't bond with the Sheraton, but I felt at home with the 335 as soon as I took it out of its case at the seller's home.

I have, through circumstances (children to raise and put through college, mortgages etc) had to spend a fair portion of my adult life playing instruments intended for teenagers, and I say, to hell with that: I am now down to exactly one electric, and that's the 335.

On the other hand (and this is an important qualification), the luck of the draw and the sheer variability of the cheaper instruments means that there are some low-priced gems out there; the same luck of the draw means that you'll have to spend a LOT of time until you get lucky. I recognize that the general quality of the less expensive spread has risen since the days that I got my first plywood-top/floor-joist-braced acoustic, but you still get what you pay for.

There's a lot of noise online about how the quality of Gibsons has declined, but that's a combination of ego talk justifying why ***ME-ME-ME*** doesn't own a Gibson and urban legend. There's another element, which is the willingness of persons who are otherwise capable buying a guitar from an online retailer and being disappointed at the result.

Buy the best you can afford, and buy a name brand you can subsequently upgrade. Epiphone is a good place to start, but be aware that it's only a start.

Now, to address your actual question: Epiphones are guitars and basses manufactured in China to Gibson designs that are made of cheaper materials, for the simple and obvious reason that they are built, not to a quality standard, but to a price. Woolworth's and Kresge (forerunner of K-Mart) perfected this marketing strategy many years ago, including the incorporation of the "lowest-priced-source" tactic of keeping prices down.

For those of us who spend a lot of time with a guitar/bass/Dobro etc in our hands, price is not the PRIMARY consideration.

Others may disagree.

[RonD]

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

This is a contentious issue. I have had several Epiphones, and found them to be competent but not inspiring. In rather rapid succession, I had an Epi Sheraton II which I rewired with Seymour Duncans and upgraded electronics, and a 2000 ES-335, all stock. The Gibson whupped the Epiphone in every way: the quality of the woods, the feel, and the all-important sound. I didn't bond with the Sheraton, but I felt at home with the 335 as soon as I took it out of its case at the seller's home.

I have, through circumstances (children to raise and put through college, mortgages etc) had to spend a fair portion of my adult life playing instruments intended for teenagers, and I say, to hell with that: I am now down to exactly one electric, and that's the 335.

On the other hand (and this is an important qualification), the luck of the draw and the sheer variability of the cheaper instruments means that there are some low-priced gems out there; the same luck of the draw means that you'll have to spend a LOT of time until you get lucky. I recognize that the general quality of the less expensive spread has risen since the days that I got my first plywood-top/floor-joist-braced acoustic, but you still get what you pay for.

There's a lot of noise online about how the quality of Gibsons has declined, but that's a combination of ego talk justifying why ***ME-ME-ME*** doesn't own a Gibson and urban legend. There's another element, which is the willingness of persons who are otherwise capable buying a guitar from an online retailer and being disappointed at the result.

Buy the best you can afford, and buy a name brand you can subsequently upgrade. Epiphone is a good place to start, but be aware that it's only a start.

Now, to address your actual question: Epiphones are guitars and basses manufactured in China to Gibson designs that are made of cheaper materials, for the simple and obvious reason that they are built, not to a quality standard, but to a price. Woolworth's and Kresge (forerunner of K-Mart) perfected this marketing strategy many years ago, including the incorporation of the "lowest-priced-source" tactic of keeping prices down.

For those of us who spend a lot of time with a guitar/bass/Dobro etc in our hands, price is not the PRIMARY consideration.

Others may disagree.

lpdeluxe,
Well stated. I would however like to address your statement about those of us who comment on Gibsons quality.
I spend six days a week, teaching at a local guitar shop that does a booming business in repairs.
As an amateur builder, I spend an inordinate amount of time in this Dept. watching and learning from the repairman and the luthier.

In the last 5-6 years, we have seen an unsurpassed amount of Gibson guitars come in for service that exhibit manufacturing defects and questionable workmanship.
As I stated before, not all Gibson or Epiphone guitars (new ones) are like this, but the numbers seem to be on the rise.
As someone who has owned and played dozens of Gibsons in his 45 yrs. of playing, I find this more than a little disturbing.
Management issues? Perhaps, but I certainly hope this is a temporary condition.
It saddens me to see this.

Cheers, Ron

[customxke]

I have a 1952 Epiphone Century that seems just fine to me.

[Scotto]

When I decided I wanted my first jazz guitar, I started to look at Gibson and the 335 but for whatever reasons I never found one that had the vibe I was looking for. I came close to purchasing a new L5 Wes Montgomery model in black but it had overspray where the neck met the body and couldn't justify paying the price for overspray. This also turned me off a bit on new Gibsons. I ended up with an Epiphone Sheraton with the vintage sunburst and had the frets polished, had some 57 classics installed along with some heavy flatwounds and I still love to play this guitar, it's become my buddy. I would like to upgrade and I don't think I'll be looking at Gibson Jazzboxes... the Benedettos these days are looking pretty cool. I wonder what kind of guitar Wes would play today if he had his choice?

[Archie]

I have a 2002 Gibson ES335 and a friend has an Epi Dot 335. His guitar is very good.

I think lpdeluxe has explained it very well. I'd just emphasize that it's dangerous to generalize about guitars. One example of a particular model can vary a lot from the next. I've bought guitars, new and used, over the internet, and I've been lucky, but I still much prefer to try them out before I buy.

[robertm2000]

I'll chime in here. I worked at a music store that carried Gibson - every one of them we carried had to have major rework. Things like a fret job or taking the body apart to reglue loose braces - we ended up selling a majority of them for a loss and dumping Gibson entirely. The competing music store picked up Gibson a few years later. But they've also had Epiphone and sell several times more Epis than Gibsons. But the clerks there say Epiphone, more often than not, is close to or even better than Gibson. The store I used to work at took on Ibanez as a substitute, and it turned out to be, across the board, the same - as good as Gibson.

Since I found out about Ted Greene and Ed Bickert I've gone with not real expensive solidbody guitars, replacing parts, and hoping for a Fender Tele eventually. I like Fenders better - they are real workhorse guitars and it's my playing that's the limiting factor, not the guitar.

[mattymel]

vintage epis are one of the few overlooked vintage deals out there. besides a 60s casino (thanks john lennon) there are many fine epi archtop guitars out there from the 40s, 50s and 60s that outperform their gibson vintage equivalents and put their modern equivalents to shame that cost abot as a much as a eastman or the like and sound and feel 100 times better.

as to new epis, i think it is totally luck of the draw. they seem better than a squier is to a fender, but i havent played many that could compare to a gibson. still they are decent guitars.

[derek]

It really depends on what Epi you are asking about. Epi was it's own company before it was bought out by Gibson in 57. The archtops they made then, are universally considered quite good, and a decent value for vintage instruments.

After Gibby bought them, they started the trend of using the Epi branding on import versions of Gibson models. Depending on the year and country of manufacture, some Epis rival their Gibson counterpart. The best example of this would be the now discontinued Elitist line.

Frankly, when I get new students in, and parents are asking about entry level guitars, I always put Epi at the top of my recommendation list.

[mr. beaumont]

with the modern epiphones, you get what you pay for...the more expensive models are quite nice. The cheap beginner stuff has all of the same hang ups the cheap beginner stuff of other brands has.

In Epi's defense, these problems are usually easily remedied, and I, like derek, recommend Epi's to beginners and intermediates all the time.


Epiphones of days of old are another story entirely. Play an old Emperor and you'll know instantly.

[jazzuki]

Epiphone belong to Gibson and are Gibson's budget line-They are better value than Gibson which I feel are now overpriced because of the name.I also recommend Epi'to beginners.However on price style workmanship I also recommend "Peerless"

[cosmic gumbo]

Many older used Epiphones that were built in Japan are of very high quality construction.

[lpdeluxe]

Prior to 1957, Epiphones were made by Epiphone in their own factory. Following the sale of Epiphone to Gibson (which included tooling and materials) Epiphones were produced in Gibson's Kalamazoo factory on Parsons St (Epi used the address of a cross-street to make it appear otherwise). In 1970, manufacture was moved to Japan, then to Korea and recently to China. With the advent of CAD-CAM milling machines, quality has stayed very good.

What is less than good is the shortcuts taken on materials. I had a blonde Epiphone Sheraton II and a blonde Gibson ES-335; construction details were very similar but the quality of the woods was not. The Epi had very plain, unfigured maple, with visible flaws, while the Gibson has nicely figured flamed maple. The neck on the former was laminated maple, versus one-piece mahogany on the latter. A friend had an Emperor Regent that looked great from the outside, but was made entirely of laminates. The electronics on the 13-year-old Epiphone were terrible: scratchy pots, weak pickups, and a switch that was very noisy. The newer Gibson remains silent when you manipulate the controls.

Looking at the two instruments side by side, there was NO question which was the inexpensive copy. I'll grant you that the quality of the Epiphone was far higher than that of the Venturas and whatnot I cut my teeth on, buy there is no comparison to an actual Gibson, in looks, feel or sound. Maybe I had a particularly bad Epiphone and a particularly good Gibson, but I don't think so. I do know this: the Sheraton was an excellent beginner's guitar, and the 335 is a fine professional instrument. There's no way any sane person would choose the Epiphone over the Gibson for other than the constraints of budget.

Apparently knowledgeable persons here have told of problems with quality at Gibson. I have only my own experience (three Gibsons, including a Norlin, and Nashville and Memphis-built models) and that experience includes the assumption that, if I were handed substandard Gibson, that would not be an instrument I would buy. If they are out there, then somehow they have not been offered to sale to me and I remain agnostic.

[Archtop Bill]

Just to chime in: I have owned four Gibson's over the years: an LP Deluxe, LP 40th Anniversary, a mid 60's ES 335 and an ES 120T. I have also owned a number of other electrics and literally dozens of classical guitars.

I currently own and play an Epiphone Broadway. As I previously posted, I bought it "new" last February, but the serial number tells me it is a 2006 which also tells me it was made in Korea. I remain unimpressed with current Epiphones coming out of China. The fit and finish of the Chinese boxes does not compare to my Korean guitar and to my ear, every Chinese Eipiphone that I have played in the stores sounds anemic.

I cannot easily explain why, but this is the best (non-classical) guitar I have ever owned. I setup the guitar myself as it came from the shop with 10's on it and I prefer flatwound 13's. It just plays great and sounds great. I also find it easy to look at. It just resonates with me like no other electric I have owned or played.

Hitherto, the only electric that I ever owned that my wife enjoyed listening to was the 335. She says she likes this one just as well, which is important.

Could it be that my expectations are based on that it is an Epiphone rather than a Gibson? I may pick up a new or used Gibson in the store, play a few notes and just think to myself, my Broadway sounds better.

[robertm2000]

I think that what this proves is that most guitarists are a very thoughtful group. There are Gibsons that are great, and there are a lot of folks who play other kinds of guitars. They are all looking for the same things, I think: instruments that sound good, and that play the way they want them to. In total: play what makes you feel like you're achieving what you want.

[Scotto]

You may be on to something regarding the Korean vs Chinese models... they even feel slightly different when I pick up a new Epi.

[Archtop Bill]

Originally Posted by Scotto

You may be on to something regarding the Korean vs Chinese models... they even feel slightly different when I pick up a new Epi.

I honestly feel that any guitarist with a reasonable ear will be able to distinguish differences of the Chinese Epi from the "same" Korean model by feel, sound and fit & finish. I assume Gibson is enjoying a cost savings for moving their import line to China, but I personally feel they are destroying the Epiphone brand the same way they damaged the parent brand.

Remember way back when we were all thrilled that the current management bought Gibson from Norlin? Granted, it has taken a few decades, but as Pete Townshend said "Meet the new boss, just the same as the old boss."

[RonD]

So, if we blame the "drop in quality" of the Epiphones on the change of manufacturing from Korea to China... how do we explain the drop in Gibson's quality?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

with the modern epiphones, you get what you pay for...the more expensive models are quite nice. The cheap beginner stuff has all of the same hang ups the cheap beginner stuff of other brands has.

I totally agree with you, Derek, and Archtop Bill, and mattymel (pretty much everyone).

I owned a new Epiphone Casino in 1996 and it was as good as the Asian made guitars like Peerless and current Korean Gretsches--ie. really good. It sounded and played awesome. As far as vintage, the name isn't quite as big as Gibson so you can get a better deal on some really nice archtops, provided it isn't trashed.

That was just an excuse to post this:
p1_ukq3ia1cd_so.jpg
From this GBase listing

If you described it: "metallic mauve, with epiphone branded vibrato" i would say that sounded hideous, but it looks amazing.

Anyhow, there are great new Epiphone archtops from Korea, but you should try them before buying, or buy from a place where you can return it.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by RonD

So, if we blame the "drop in quality" of the Epiphones on the change of manufacturing from Korea to China... how do we explain the drop in Gibson's quality?

Price expectations being set unrealistically low for quality instruments by the cost of instruments which aren't an equivalent type (ie. i can get a guitar for $300!). You can probably blame Leo Fender for putting those wheels in motion.

[RonD]

Originally Posted by spiral

Price expectations being set unrealistically low for quality instruments by the cost of instruments which aren't an equivalent type (ie. i can get a guitar for $300!). You can probably blame Leo Fender for putting those wheels in motion.

Good point. I bought my first Les Paul in 1973, paid $695 for it. I was making @ $71 a week at the time. So, by that logic, I should be spending @$9000 for a guitar today!

[Archtop Bill]

Originally Posted by RonD

Good point. I bought my first Les Paul in 1973, paid $695 for it. I was making @ $71 a week at the time. So, by that logic, I should be spending @$9000 for a guitar today!

Exactly! And these price expectations certainly extend beyond guitars. If not we would 1) still make a lot of stuff in the US and 2) not have a Wal-Mart in every town.

[RonD]

Originally Posted by Archtop Bill

Exactly! And these price expectations certainly extend beyond guitars. If not we would 1) still make a lot of stuff in the US and 2) not have a Wal-Mart in every town.

The Walmarts and GC's and Gibsons will exist as long as we support them.

[Archie]

Originally Posted by RonD

Good point. I bought my first Les Paul in 1973, paid $695 for it. I was making @ $71 a week at the time. So, by that logic, I should be spending @$9000 for a guitar today!

You can find some nice $9000 guitars at The Twelfth Fret.

[keefer1234]

I bought a Chinese Epiphone Sheraton II a couple of years ago. It played really nicely and had a good unplugged acoustic sound but I didn't like the pickups so I swapped them for a pair of Phat Cats and now it's very good indeed.

About a year later, I got a Gibson 339 and...it was a dog. The action was all over the place, the intonation was audibly wrong from the the start and it was no fun at all to play. The tone was wonderful and I thought it might be worth spending some money on. After a proper professional setup it definitely beats the Epiphone on tone and playability. I'd still like to keep both of them though.

It seems like my experience is pretty much the same as everyone else - if you buy a new Gibson now you have to do some work to turn it into a quality guitar. Also, if you buy a cheap guitar and swap the pickups and pots it can be very good indeed.

[RoyaleT]

I have a Dot which is upgraded. But that was just for personal taste, the stock guitar was fine in it's original configuration and fit & finish was good. I have friends with various LP's and SG's that I like as well.