Gretsch White Falcon- for Jazz???

[bborzell]

Originally Posted by backliner

Fair enough.

I paid a skoash under $2K for a new Country Club with a solid spruce top. The only thing I could find in its class was a USED George Benson 200 Ibanez.

I am aware of and have had The Heritage models in this range, but the Japanese workmanship won me over. And I appreciated the single coil DeArmonds in my own esoteric way.

The White Falcon is not my image of a quintessential jazz ax even if it were much cheaper, but structurally there's no reason it couln't suffice as a fine sounding jazz machine, in the right hands through the right amp.

Your point is equally fair. Had the original question been something like, "I have a White Falcon and I'm thinking of using it to play jazz, what do you think?", my guess is that most here would have said, "Go for it!".

I read the question as the OP was considering obtaining a White Falcon to use as a jazz guitar, hence my response. As is the case with many who frequent these pages, I have heard some pretty incredible jazz performances with guitars that would normally never rise very high on many player's list of first string jazz guitars.

[backliner]

Originally Posted by bborzell

...I have heard some pretty incredible jazz performances with guitars that would normally never rise very high on many player's list of first string jazz guitars.

Indeed.

I once heard (author) Jim Ferguson Jim Ferguson: Jazz/Classical Guitarist, Composer, Author, Educator using a 1985 Strat (the two knob kind with the break-o-matic trem) in a local club and getting a great jazz sound. I had to ask what gauge strings he was using.

"10 -46."

[Little Jay]

Originally Posted by rexi

Here are some nice mellow jazztones played on a Gretch

Andres Thor Quartet - Innri Ró - YouTube

Gretsch on a Peavey Classic 30, if I see correctly.
Nice combination!

[backliner]

Gretsch did at one time have a track record with jazz players, but George Harrison, Chet Atkins, Duane Eddy, The Monkees, and Brian Setzer, have sold TONS more Gretsches since the guitar boom took hold in the sixties.

Nobody slags on Gibson for Trini Lopez models. To stay in business the big American factories have pandered to the lust of the buying public, if not the jazz trained musicians following an art form that was once popular but has been eclipsed (commercially, at least) by other popular styles.

Today I had a chance to drop by a local shop that has a nice "vintage" room, where I was able to play several vintage Gibson and Epiphone archtops from the 1940's and '50's, including non-cutaway as well as cutaway L-7's, Triumphs, etc. I also played a nice Eastman or two and was again impressed with their response and build quality.

OK, humor the old geezer here:

Later, during Monday Night Football, I broke out my '09 Gretsch Country Club and trotted through a few unplugged chord solos.

Aside from the interior soundpost under the bridge which limits the unplugged volume (though it has a pleasent "voice" with T.I. George Benson flatwounds presently), I concluded that the current Country Club offering from Gretsch has NOTHING to apologize for, especially in build quality and "feel."

I couldn't help noticing (again) that the trim features like the perfectly mitre'd multiple layer binding throughout was still in the tradition of fine (again, factory production) jazz guitars like L-5's etc. The Grover Imperial tuning machines do not feel like a sick play at "trying" to fake a nice jazz guitar, but are congruent with the level the rest of the guitar aspires to.

Yes the 17" spruce top is pressed, not carved, but even with a sound post inside it sounds as responsive as many L-4/5 CES models I have played with the thick feedback mitigating spruce tops they've been putting on electric versions for a while now.

I agree that many old US made Gretsches I have seen were not up the the same level as their factory production counterparts by Guild, Gibson, and Epiphone, and some have not aged well either. However I have also seen some that were still in good shape despite being the same era as the "clunky" ones.

All that to say this: given that the current pro-line Gretsches being built by Terada, in Japan, under the auspices of FMIC (which is handling manufacturing and distribution) seem to me to be the best Gretsches ever, I think the current Country Club model deserves more than a passing glance by anyone in the $2K market for a "jazz guitar," even if it has a Bigsby.

The Ibanez George Benson 200 is also made by Terada-Japan, and is far costlier. I played a used one priced at $2500. It sports a thick solid spruce top like the Gibsons use to fight feedback. They, and the Pat Metheny models are pretty well thought of, I think (speaking of $3.4K production jazzers)?

The Gretsch Falcon is about $3.5K new. The Country Clubs are msrp around $2.9K, with a street price a skoash under $2K, with hardshell case.

I don't care for the ostentatious trim level on most Falcons, but since the discussion here has broadened out to include Gretsch models generally and there has been some value judgements assigned to build quality past, I thought I'd throw in my $0.02 as a satisfied customer.

Nobody will ever know my name as associated with the music "binness," but years from now I believe somebody will be handling my Gretsch with almost the same reverence as I was handling venerable old jazz guitars in the vintage room today.

And personally, I like the sound of the anachronistic Dynasonic single coil pickups on mine. If I hit the right notes with some swing, it sho'nuff sounds like a jazz guitar.






Yeah-yeah: car paint! But hey, at least it's not covering up headstock scarf-joints etc, like on some manufacturers that should know better. Under that Bamboo Yellow/Metallic Copper mist paint lurks a put-together right guitar.

I recommend 'em!

[cjm]

Originally Posted by backliner

Yes the 17" spruce top is pressed, not carved, but even with a sound post inside it sounds as responsive as many L-4/5 CES models I have played with the thick feedback mitigating spruce tops they've been putting on electric versions for a while now.

One of the things I object to in the guitar industry today...certainly not just Gretsch, but Gretsch is yet another example...is the use of the marketing phrase solid wood.

While it is understood that this means the top plate is heat or steam pressed into its arched shape, it is deliberately intended to cause the buyer to infer that it means a single layer of wood and therefore more like a carved top guitar than a plywood ( laminate) guitar.

(Yes, to be clear, I understand you used the term pressed but Gretsch uses the term solid wood throughout their marketing literature.)

This is a disingenuous form of weasel speaking intended to deceive buyers, because solid wood tops are actually laminations -- apparently not with cross plies, and therefore not technically plywood -- but never the less a laminate.

Personally, I think laminates -- including plywood laminates -- are superb materials for hollowbody archtop electrics. And as you note, your Country Club is a well built guitar that delivers an excellent amplified jazz tone.

So obviously I don't object to Terada building guitars for Gretsch out of laminated wood, nor do I object to a bazillion other builders offering archtops constructed the same way. These are the archtop guitars I prefer.

But I do object to this lie of omission from guitar manufacturers as a marketing ploy.

[backliner]

Originally Posted by cjm

One of the things I object to in the guitar industry today...certainly not just Gretsch, but Gretsch is yet another example...is the use of the marketing phrase solid wood.to cause the buyer to infer that it means a single layer of wood and therefore more like a carved top guitar than a plywood ( laminate) guitar. ...

I agree. It began I think with use of the term "select" spruce top, which we all figured out pretty quickly meant plywood. Many importers used this phrase for a few years.

In the case with SOME of the Cadillac Green Gretsch Country Clubs I've seen, the grain ribbons of the spruce actually stick up in waves, indicating it really is a thin -but solid through- plate of spruce they've pressed across the sides in an arc.

In the case of MINE however, no such ribs are evident, and when looking inside with an inspection mirror, the inner surface under the top is clearly maple.

When I inquired to Joe Carducci, the Gretsch rep for Fender, he informed me that "There is a thin layer of maple laminated to the underside of the solid spruce, to stabilize it against splitting." I hadn't realized that was a problem.

To be fair, some Loar archtops with "Solid pressed tops" sound much like a '51 L-4C I once had. And I realize a laminated top (or plywood) on an archtop isn't the deficit I hear on similiar flat-top acoustics.

My '54 ES-175 of years ago sounded better to me than the L-4. Not as loud maybe, but the L-4 was VERY bright, at a time when I was looking for a bit more bass (I finally found bass in spades in a '39 Epiphone Spartan).

Marketing terms are the invention of salesmen stuck with selling products players are suspicious of (and with good reason). Certainly the rest of the materials are not even attempted to be implied as solid like an L-5.

Nevertheless -knowing what I've got- I do still greatly enjoy the guitar for what it is, if not what it pretends to be. It is an image of the past, currently knocked out on CNC machines: but at least assembled as if the factory production "luthiers" gave a hoot. It is an exquisite example of modern manufacturing assets and sounds great even acoustically (although certainly not loud by any stretch).