My First Jazz Guitar - Help!

[mambosun]

In advance, sorry for this long posting, but I need your help:

For a quite long time, I always craved for the lush, rounded, smooth, almost liquid sound produced by an archtop guitar à la Johnny Smith (Gibson L5, D’Aquisto), René Thomas, Jimmy Raney (Gibson ES150) just to name a few.
I often tried to get close to this magic sound while playing with my Ibanez AS120 plugged to my trusty vintage Twin Reverb (Silver face of 1974) but something was always missing: depth, organic rounded big sound wasn’t simply there.(I have to say I got quite close once, with a vintage Princeton reverb I borrowed fom a friend for a jazz gig.purpose).

OK, I know, the biggest responsible for this is the guitar player himself, but eventhough I ‘m far from mastering jazz guitar skills, I know a little bit however.

So, when my wife asked me what would be the next most desirable present for my birthday(I just turned 50), I obviously replied a Jazz box!

We then visit a luthier shop I know very well and after trying different models around the same budget (800€) I finally choose a Samick JZ4 Gregg Benett.
I love this guitar: playability, look& feel, intonation, really impressive for the asked price.
I liked the unplugged sound and the amplified was OK, but since the amp used was unfamiliar to me, I just figured out I would obtain better result from my Twin reverb.
OK you know how comfortable is assessing guitars in a shop: people staring at you, headbanger playing death metal licks in the nearby, and your beloved wife asking you every five minutes if we're ready to leave?

Based on the the luthier recommendation the stock floating pickup has been replaced for a better one (Bartolini).

Well since I brought my Jazz box home, I’m puzzled: I have a quite good warm sound, a clear tone, chords never sound muddy etc….but not exactly the lush sound I was looking for!
I use flatwound strings and ebony plectrum, butn while playing rhythm parts, the metallic sound of the strings is coming a bit to loudly for my taste.
I spend hours fiddling with tone controls on the guitar and amp obtaining some slight improvements but remained unsatisfied.

So my question is, how can I obtain this sought after sound?

Am I dreaming (champagne taste with budget beer can’t have it all)?

Do I have to change the pickup: for instance I wonder if this sound is obtainable from floating pick up, or do I have to swith to a humbucker mounted into the guitar body? I have to say, I’m a bit reluctant to go for such a radical and irreversible modification, prior to check the end result, which is obviously impossible.. Or is ther any better floating pickup? Could a Kent Amstrong be a valid option, and The perfect candidate?

Do I have to change the stock Tune O Matic for a wood bridge?

Should I give up jazz guitar?

Thank you very much for your advices and suggestions

[mongrel]

Heavy gauge flatwounds like TI Swings. Action on the high side making sure pickup isn't too close to the strings. Try swapping the Twin Reverb's 12AX7's preamp tubes for something with less gain in ht 12A family. Pull out two of the four 6L6's so that it runs at half power. That may get you closer to Raney.

[Drifter]

It's pure speculation but could it be that the Twin Reverb is not the best choice for home volumes? A wood bridge would probably help but I don't think it's the foremost reason for your discontent. I'd try a dedicated Jazz amp first (Henriksen or maybe Evans). Good luck!

[mambosun]

Heavy gauge flatwounds like TI Swings. Action on the high side making sure pickup isn't too close to the strings. Try swapping the Twin Reverb's 12AX7's preamp tubes for something with less gain in ht 12A family. Pull out two of the four 6L6's so that it runs at half power. That may get you closer to Raney.

Thanks for your inputs..

I can't really consider tweaking my Twin since this is my main and only amp I use for playing rock and blues with my band,
My amp already runs at half power thanks to the toogle switch which allow me to select either 100W or 60W.
But I agree the Twin may not the obvious right choice for the Jazz sound I'm looking for, since it has a very rich sound, slightly rolled off in the medium range. I notice this while fiddling with the EQ controls: medium set up o 9 and rolled off treble, this helped a little bit, but not enough.
And what about changing the pickup?

[jazzrat]

What kind of strings? Pure nickel flats like TI's will be warmer and less clanky
than stainless steel flats. The wood bridge might help too.

[randyc]

There's nothing wrong with a Fender Twin (at any level) that a better guitar wouldn't improve. You went from one inexpensive Asian guitar to another inexpensive Asian guitar with a better pickup. The improvement that you're hearing is due to the pickup; the lack of tonal complexity and subleties is inherent to the guitar. I would bet that putting the Bartolini on your old guitar would have produced the same results.

Obtaining a good jazz guitar in Europe at a reasonable cost is difficult - you have a tax burden that is quite heavy. Your budget, here in the U.S., would have put you in striking distance of a number of very nice guitars: Guilds, Heritages for example, even some Gibson models. I bought a Heritage H575 last year (used) for slightly more than your budget and have seen many used Guilds go for about the same price over the past year.

It's really hard to stay motivated when playing with equipment that doesn't inspire you. You have a very nice amplifier and it probably cost more than the guitar you just bought. That, in my opinion, is the tail wagging the dog. One can get a nice tone from almost ANY amplifier with a decent guitar - amplifier technology is at a level that is better than ever before at prices that make them almost throw-away.

It's really tough on you guys in Europe that you don't have access to the equipment that we take for granted. Frankly, in your position, not only would I not have purchased the Samick but saved the money, sold the Twin and looked for a quality guitar and a smaller (lighter) amplifier. I am fortunate to own a number of U.S. made guitars and unfortunate enough to own one Asian guitar (Epiphone Emperor Regent).

I have nine amplifiers ranging from Twin down to a Champ and any of my guitars sound great through any of the amplifiers ... except for the Epiphone. I have yet to get the "sound" from that guitar, even after replacing the pickup with a '65 Gibson P-90. One of these days, someone will irritate me sufficiently so that I'll give the Epiphone to him.

Sorry about your quandary - too bad that we here can't buy a quality guitar and ship to Europe without you guys having to pay the VAT. On the other hand, a few months back, a forum member from Germany (I think) posted the pricing for ES-175 guitars in Europe and they seemed very similar to what we pay here ... maybe you're not looking in the right places?

This is a buyer's market for quality guitars. If I walked into any music store in California and saw a Gibson hanging on the rack, I'd be quite confident that I'd walk out of the store with the guitar, having paid less than 75-80% of the asking price.

Cheers,
Randy C

[plasticpigeon]

I have no advice about sound I'm afraid. The JZ I have has a very deep and very pleasing acoustic sound, I guess because it is so big, but tone is a very subjective matter!!! I don't know if I am allowed to do say this on the forum but if anybody else fancies a Samick JZ series (JZ2 with built in pickups) I will sell mine at a very reasonable price as I have bought a more expensive instrument now!

[mr. beaumont]

how about a cheap fix?

dump the ebony pick. Super bright tone with an audible click, right? great for gypsy jazz, not so much for a darker classic jazz tone.

order some dunlop jazztones. try it. you'll be out a few bucks at worst.

[mambosun]

how about a cheap fix?

dump the ebony pick. Super bright tone with an audible click, right? great for gypsy jazz, not so much for a darker classic jazz tone.

order some dunlop jazztones. try it. you'll be out a few bucks at worst.

Thanks, I'll give a try to these.

[barrymclark]

As far as the pickup goes, I have never tried one, but I have heard some jazzers go on and on about Kent Armstrongs jazz pickups.

[SamBooka]

We all have our biases.
I will ask a silly question. How do you set the controls on your twin?

[mambosun]

What kind of strings? Pure nickel flats like TI's will be warmer and less clanky
than stainless steel flats. The wood bridge might help too.

I currently use flatwound , gauge = 11/50
I'll investigate the TI strings but they are rather pricey.

[mambosun]

We all have our biases.
I will ask a silly question. How do you set the controls on your twin?

For rock, blues & pop I 'm currently using either a Telecaster or a semi-hollow Artstar Ibanez, + up to 8 effect pedals , hence the controls of the effect channel are set as follows:

Bright/ low= low position
Volume = 4
Treble, Medium & Bass =5
Reverb =3
Master volume= 10 (in order to almost by-pass the master)

For jazz, with my archtop, the " best" result were obtained with :
Treble =1
Medium=9
Bass=5
Volume & master unchanged.

[mambosun]

There's nothing wrong with a Fender Twin (at any level) that a better guitar wouldn't improve. You went from one inexpensive Asian guitar to another inexpensive Asian guitar with a better pickup. The improvement that you're hearing is due to the pickup; the lack of tonal complexity and subleties is inherent to the guitar. I would bet that putting the Bartolini on your old guitar would have produced the same results.

Obtaining a good jazz guitar in Europe at a reasonable cost is difficult - you have a tax burden that is quite heavy. Your budget, here in the U.S., would have put you in striking distance of a number of very nice guitars: Guilds, Heritages for example, even some Gibson models. I bought a Heritage H575 last year (used) for slightly more than your budget and have seen many used Guilds go for about the same price over the past year.

It's really hard to stay motivated when playing with equipment that doesn't inspire you. You have a very nice amplifier and it probably cost more than the guitar you just bought. That, in my opinion, is the tail wagging the dog. One can get a nice tone from almost ANY amplifier with a decent guitar - amplifier technology is at a level that is better than ever before at prices that make them almost throw-away.

It's really tough on you guys in Europe that you don't have access to the equipment that we take for granted. Frankly, in your position, not only would I not have purchased the Samick but saved the money, sold the Twin and looked for a quality guitar and a smaller (lighter) amplifier. I am fortunate to own a number of U.S. made guitars and unfortunate enough to own one Asian guitar (Epiphone Emperor Regent).

I have nine amplifiers ranging from Twin down to a Champ and any of my guitars sound great through any of the amplifiers ... except for the Epiphone. I have yet to get the "sound" from that guitar, even after replacing the pickup with a '65 Gibson P-90. One of these days, someone will irritate me sufficiently so that I'll give the Epiphone to him.

Sorry about your quandary - too bad that we here can't buy a quality guitar and ship to Europe without you guys having to pay the VAT. On the other hand, a few months back, a forum member from Germany (I think) posted the pricing for ES-175 guitars in Europe and they seemed very similar to what we pay here ... maybe you're not looking in the right places?

This is a buyer's market for quality guitars. If I walked into any music store in California and saw a Gibson hanging on the rack, I'd be quite confident that I'd walk out of the store with the guitar, having paid less than 75-80% of the asking price.

Cheers,
Randy C

Thanks for your long and informative reply.
You're right, most american gear (guitars, stomp box, amps) sold here have obscene prices.
FYI, asking price for a new ES175 in the biggest german webstore is above 2400€.
As vintage in the second hand market, asking prices come close.
As a non professional and occasional jazz guitar player, this unfortunately is far beyond my budget.

[barrymclark]

Epiphone Emperor Regent

Played one of these. Rather liked it. Not as much as my H575, but I liked it.

[randyc]

The internal details of that guitar are appalling - looks like it was put together with carpentry scraps by school children.

[nic]

I also just bought a Samick. I'd been in the market for a GIbson CS-336 or 356 and found this Samick Royal RL-3 on Craig's List for $350. After looking at the specs I realized it was about the same size and same construction as the Gibson I wanted. I figured it was so cheap I could buy it and mod it to death and have some fun until I got the guitar I really wanted. At this point I am amazed that it sounds and feels as great as it does. It is really close to the $3K Gibson I want (and will still buy when I can). And, there's no point in modding it, doesn't really need anything changed.

My Samick is not a jazz box like your JZ-4 so this may not relate too much to what your seeking, but I did want to note that you should expect a Samick guitar to give you the tone you're seeking. Try some dedicated jazz amps.

[randyc]

There IS no better jazz guitar amplifier than a Fender Twin (in my opinion and that of many others with more skill, talent and experience than me). If a jazz guitar cannot sound good through a Twin then the problem lies with the guitar, the player or the definition of "good".

[mambosun]

There IS no better jazz guitar amplifier than a Fender Twin (in my opinion and that of many others with more skill, talent and experience than me). If a jazz guitar cannot sound good through a Twin then the problem lies with the guitar, the player or the definition of "good".

I agree with you about the Twin, it is unquestionably a great amp, though it has a very specific sound and as I already mentioned, I experienced a very different sound rendition from a borrowed vintage SF Princeton Reverb ; I once compared both amps side by side (same EQ and volume settings) with my Artstar Ibanez and the result was a darker and more lush sound than from my Twin. Maybe it has someting to do with how behave the Twin ( two big 12" loudspeakers to move): it may needs to be played loud to give it best, whereas the Princeton sound optimally at quieter volume setting?

BTW, What is your opinion about the Bartolini floating pick up?

[barrymclark]

The internal details of that guitar are appalling - looks like it was put together with carpentry scraps by school children.

Considering where it was made, that is highly likely.

[Little Jay]

Oh man, this is the basic issue of every jazzguitarist: the tonequest....!
I think you are in for a long journey and many guitars and amps later you will find your tone hopefully...

But there's sound advise given already by the forummers that should help a lot. I will a add my 2cts:

I think there's is nothing wrong with the given combination of amp and guitar. Obviously the Samick is lower budget Asian and not a quality vintage instrument, but I think a lush jazztone should be possible.

I own a Gyatone Twin reverb and with all my guitars that can deliver a very pleasing jazztone, my guitars being a Korean Epiphone Sheraton, a Japanese Condor ES-175 copy (low budget but vintage), a Gibson ES-333, a Furch G-1 archtop.

Things I do to obtain my jazztone and you could experiment with:

- I use a Dunlop Jazz 207 pick, which is quite hard and can sound shrill and squeeky, but with my picking technique I can produce a full and round sound with it (to my ears). Since you are missing something in your sound, I think it pays to experiment with different gauges, materials and types of plecs;
- I use 0.012 flatwounds. I mostly use D'Addario chromes because of easy availability and lower costs, but with Thomastiks the tone is richer and 'woodier';
- I do prefer wooden bridges over metal ones, but my ES-333 sounds just fine with it's tunomatic, so I tend to think it's not decisive;
- rolling off treble with the volume pot instead of the tone pot! On all my guitars I leave the volume around 6-7 (out of 10) which reduces the treble and enhances a jazzier tone (I never install treble-bleed caps for this reason);
- carefully choosing tubes in my Twin: I noticed that different brands of pre-amp tubes in the twin, especially the first gain-stage (12AX7 or 7025) make a huge difference! I prefer TADs or Svetlanas. It's worth experimenting. Next are the powertubes: these can also make a difference between a dull, "cold" sounding amp and a lush tone. Since a twin uses 4 6L6s this can be expensive, but ordinairy Sovteks 6L6WXT+ are relatively cheap and sound good enough for me. TADs or Tung Sols are better, but pricey (I put TADs in my Blues Deluxe amp and that was just what that amp needed);
- pickups: my Conder ES-175 copy realy came alive with a Gibson Burstbucker #1 at the neck (I hardly ever use the bridge PU). Quite an investment (€100 for a €150 euro guitar ;-), but very happy with it. Also the Gibson Classic 57s of my ES-333 (installed by previous owner) are perfect for a smooth and warm respons. The Burstbuckers seems to deliver a slightly lighter chime in the treble that suits a hollowbody very well.

Disclaimer: these are all my very subjective experiences of course. You might not like my tone at all (if you follow the links in my signature you will be able to hear what I sound like ;-)

Disclaimer 2: all these things can improve your tone, but won't turn your guitar into a luthier-made guitar with a carved top.... it is possible that the sound you hear in your mind can only be produced by that sort of guitar (you will only find out by trying out in stores, playings other peoples guitars, etc. ). In that case: tough luck for your wallet.....

Last advise: sound is in the fingers and your technique, not in equipment. You just need the right equipment for YOUR sound, and if you are lucky you can find YOUR sound with some inexpensive tweaks on a low budget guitar. If not: tough luck for your wallet....

[mambosun]

Oh man, this is the basic issue of every jazzguitarist: the tonequest....!
I think you are in for a long journey and many guitars and amps later you will find your tone hopefully...

But there's sound advise given already by the forummers that should help a lot. I will a add my 2cts:

I think there's is nothing wrong with the given combination of amp and guitar. Obviously the Samick is lower budget Asian and not a quality vintage instrument, but I think a lush jazztone should be possible.

I own a Gyatone Twin reverb and with all my guitars that can deliver a very pleasing jazztone, my guitars being a Korean Epiphone Sheraton, a Japanese Condor ES-175 copy (low budget but vintage), a Gibson ES-333, a Furch G-1 archtop.

Things I do to obtain my jazztone and you could experiment with:

- I use a Dunlop Jazz 207 pick, which is quite hard and can sound shrill and squeeky, but with my picking technique I can produce a full and round sound with it (to my ears). Since you are missing something in your sound, I think it pays to experiment with different gauges, materials and types of plecs;
- I use 0.012 flatwounds. I mostly use D'Addario chromes because of easy availability and lower costs, but with Thomastiks the tone is richer and 'woodier';
- I do prefer wooden bridges over metal ones, but my ES-333 sounds just fine with it's tunomatic, so I tend to think it's not decisive;
- rolling off treble with the volume pot instead of the tone pot! On all my guitars I leave the volume around 6-7 (out of 10) which reduces the treble and enhances a jazzier tone (I never install treble-bleed caps for this reason);
- carefully choosing tubes in my Twin: I noticed that different brands of pre-amp tubes in the twin, especially the first gain-stage (12AX7 or 7025) make a huge difference! I prefer TADs or Svetlanas. It's worth experimenting. Next are the powertubes: these can also make a difference between a dull, "cold" sounding amp and a lush tone. Since a twin uses 4 6L6s this can be expensive, but ordinairy Sovteks 6L6WXT+ are relatively cheap and sound good enough for me. TADs or Tung Sols are better, but pricey (I put TADs in my Blues Deluxe amp and that was just what that amp needed);
- pickups: my Conder ES-175 copy realy came alive with a Gibson Burstbucker #1 at the neck (I hardly ever use the bridge PU). Quite an investment (€100 for a €150 euro guitar ;-), but very happy with it. Also the Gibson Classic 57s of my ES-333 (installed by previous owner) are perfect for a smooth and warm respons. The Burstbuckers seems to deliver a slightly lighter chime in the treble that suits a hollowbody very well.

Disclaimer: these are all my very subjective experiences of course. You might not like my tone at all (if you follow the links in my signature you will be able to hear what I sound like ;-)

Disclaimer 2: all these things can improve your tone, but won't turn your guitar into a luthier-made guitar with a carved top.... it is possible that the sound you hear in your mind can only be produced by that sort of guitar (you will only find out by trying out in stores, playings other peoples guitars, etc. ). In that case: tough luck for your wallet.....

Last advise: sound is in the fingers and your technique, not in equipment. You just need the right equipment for YOUR sound, and if you are lucky you can find YOUR sound with some inexpensive tweaks on a low budget guitar. If not: tough luck for your wallet....

Thanks Little Jay for the advices.

I watched your website and liked very much your videos.
Though I don't have your guitar playing skills,the lush tone of your ES333 sounds very familiar to me, quite close to my Artstar Ibanez plugged into my Twin.
In fact my semi hollow body sounds a bit more lush and smooth in the high than my archtop (which could sound slightly close to electro-acoustic guitar if played hard), which means, through the pickup, pick striking the strings is less obvious and smoother with the Ibanez.
I experimented with the volume knob instead of tone control on the guitar, but the tone changed, becoming slightly thinner(> quite strange I admit) unlikely my Ibanez which produces a darker tone as soon as I roll off volume.
I've been using ebony picks (for jazz playing) and big plastic Dunlop stubby (for rock and blues) for years. Plastic gives a brighter sound (such as bone, horn) while Ebony (made by Dugain) produces a darker tone.
BTW, what are the difference between Jazztone 206, 207, 208 references? thickness, shape? Dunlop website is useless in this respect.
If not too secret what is your special technique to control the squeaky tone of the Dunlop jazz tone?

[Little Jay]

I've been using ebony picks (for jazz playing) and big plastic Dunlop stubby (for rock and blues) for years. Plastic gives a brighter sound (such as bone, horn) while Ebony (made by Dugain) produces a darker tone.
BTW, what are the difference between Jazztone 206, 207, 208 references? thickness, shape? Dunlop website is useless in this respect.
If not too secret what is your special technique to control the squeaky tone of the Dunlop jazz tone?

Well, no secret technique, it's just the position and the angle of the pick. I do it instinctively, I just know that if you change the angle it sounds thinner. How and what exactly... don't know I'm afraid!

The Jazztones differ in size and thickness indeed. I was lucky enought to find them in my local music store so I could test which one felt the best and that was the 207. I agree that there's no information to be found about the differences on the web. I guess you have to try them first in a local music shop? If you wish, just PM me your adress and I'll send you a 207 to try out (I buy them 10 at the time :-).

[mambosun]

Well, no secret technique, it's just the position and the angle of the pick. I do it instinctively, I just know that if you change the angle it sounds thinner. How and what exactly... don't know I'm afraid!

The Jazztones differ in size and thickness indeed. I was lucky enought to find them in my local music store so I could test which one felt the best and that was the 207. I agree that there's no information to be found about the differences on the web. I guess you have to try them first in a local music shop? If you wish, just PM me your adress and I'll send you a 207 to try out (I buy them 10 at the time :-).

Thanks, I just asked as I initially planned to purchase them from the web.
I'll check in local shops.

[Bill C]

you might also try Fender/Gibson/D'Andrea 358 "heavy" picks ...