My First Jazz Guitar - Help!

**burchyk** · 02-07-2011, 09:06 PM

I wonder if what you are hearing is a single coil vs humbucker sound. I used to have an Ibanez hollowbody with a floating pickup and it was driving me crazy as it had a single coil floating pickup. Put a _real_ Kent Armstrong floating humbucker and was very happy about the change. The KA pickup itself is of very high quality and also typical humbucking sound has more mids and smoother less pronounced top.

**burchyk** · 02-07-2011, 09:09 PM

One more thing I should add: that guitar came with a tune-o-matic _and_ wooden bridge. I tried both and ended up with tune-o-matic for intonation precision. Even though wooden bridge had a sweeter sound, it had much less effect on tone than pickup type

**mambosun** · 02-08-2011, 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by burchyk

One more thing I should add: that guitar came with a tune-o-matic _and_ wooden bridge. I tried both and ended up with tune-o-matic for intonation precision. Even though wooden bridge had a sweeter sound, it had much less effect on tone than pickup type

Thanks for your inputs; that's exactly what I indicated above, upgrades being really guitar-dependent. The luthier where I bought the guitar didn't recommended the wood bridge because of intonation issues, but since it's an easily reversible swap, I will try out this option anyway.
The floater iinstalled in my JZ4 is a Johnny Smith 5J Bartolini. In Bartolini website, it is indicated smooth, clear, dual coil PU; it's not clear to me wether it is a mini or standard humbucker....

**mambosun** · 02-09-2011, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by burchyk

One more thing I should add: that guitar came with a tune-o-matic _and_ wooden bridge. I tried both and ended up with tune-o-matic for intonation precision. Even though wooden bridge had a sweeter sound, it had much less effect on tone than pickup type

I never noticed this before; Wes own guitar had a TOM on it.

**mambosun** · 02-21-2011, 06:52 AM

Last week end I got back to my luthier and asked him to install a rosewood bridge in place of the stock TOM.
Bearing in mind I want to keep same perfect intonation I had so far, he will make a custom rosewood bridge for me. I'll soon see how it goes..

Beside that, I had the opportunity to further investigate my quest for a good matching amp for my JZ4 and spend few hours tryout several models in the shop:
Roland Cube 30x & 80x
Fender Deluxe VM
Fender Blues Junior III
Vox AC 15
Fender 65 (tranny)
Hughes & Kettner Edition Tube 25th anniversary.

That's the last I liked most, in term of quality & performance vs price (500€).
I was disappointed by the Roland, flat and lifeless sound to my taste, no matter different settings and modelization I tried; maybe they're a better match with mounted humbucker than with floater.
The BJ III came close but I was not pleased with the rather trebly and thin sound; I prefer the BJ II I recently borrowed from a friend, cant' explain why they performed so differently?
The Fender VM came close too but it is 200€ more expensive than H&K and BJ while not performing better.Furthermore a loud hiss pop's up as soon as you switch to effect channel: I could'nt get rid of this.
The Vox was quite good too, a warm clean sound in line with the H&K.
The Fender SS sound very bad, the perceived quality close to zero, but this was the cheapest of the bunch.
As a downside about the H&K, after a while, I heard a buzz and rattle coming from the cabinet while hiting the bass notes from my JZ4 ( E and A strings) at moderate volume (before larsen pop's up) I didn't noticed before. I suspect the closed cabinet to be the culprit, maybe something inside that requires fixing.
Conclusion, my quest for the perfect little tube amp is not over, but eventhough the H&K is a seductive option, it's far too bulky, heavy, and definitively not "WAF proof" for home practising. Morover I 'm quite worried by the rattling was a bit, which is really sad because I could purchase it new at a very attractive price in a well know german website.
So, in terms of relation performance /portability/ compactness/ good sound vs price the BJ II (second hand) is still the first in my short list
Et voilà......

**mambosun** · 02-26-2011, 12:08 PM

Yesterday I picked up my archtop now equiped with a new custom rosewood bridge made by my luthier in place of the stock TOM.
A set of Thomastick (13/53) has been installed too.

All I can say is : why didn't I make these upgrades earlier!!

Almost gone is the "zing along" metallic overtone produced by the portion of strings between bridge and tailpiece and which I disliked so much.
The acoustic tone have been really improved, and I now enjoy much more than ever playing my JZ4 unplugged.

Beside this, as a follow up to my quest for the perfect matching amp, I gave a try to a Tech 21 TM30 (boxy, weak bottom end) a Blackheart BH15-112 which had a decent sound but not my cup of tea.
I wish I could have loved the BH, because of the specs and cheap price but it sadly failed to produce at any rate the kind of sweet jazz tone I want, at least with my jazzbox and my fingers...

I thank all of you for your help and good advice.

**mambosun** · 09-02-2011, 07:43 AM

After one year, I’m back again with some doubts and worries..

In my quest for the jazz tone I’m looking for, and after some worthy harware upgrades and numerous amplifiers testing in order to select the right candidate for my JZ4, I came to the following conclusions:

Only very few amp models came close to the sound I want, usually within a rather narrow “sweet spot” settings. Most amps I liked are too expensive, big and weighty, hence won’t fit the bill. Hence, the lack of tone versatility of my jazzbox worries me a bit. However, I will keep on testing.

Beside my limited jazz playing talent, I think the floating PU configuration doesn’t suite me very well; I thought I would have liked that sort of sound rendition (nice balance between electric and acoustic= woody, deep and rich tone) in the long term, I admit, I have been wrong: the sound is definitively a bit too acoustic for my taste, (I already have a flat top semi-acoustic for that purpose). Maybe I’m too “Humbucker addicted “and just can’t get rid of that type of sound in my head?
Other negative side effect, the floater tends to feed back more easily than a set-in HB, which could be a problem at gigs. However, on the plus side, I have to mention, every time I play a chord, I like the articulate notes renditions a floater can produce and the more dynamic response ( ie: amplitude between low and loud sounds, no transient here) than I can get from any HB I used so far.

I like my Jazz box very much and don’t want to change for another one; playability, intonation, fit and finishing, decent acoustic sound, etc… So “GAS “ is not the point, so far.

Then the painful question: do I have to swap the floating PU with a routed–in HB, hence to butcher the body, pay a certain amount of money to get it properly done etc…. in order to get the sound I want, this of course, without any guarantee of satisfaction?

The least I can say is that I feel reluctant to jump into this sort of non-reversible modification.
I guess I’m not and won’t be the only one.

Any expert recommendation from you, guys?

**Gramps** · 09-02-2011, 08:22 AM

My answer to the "painful question" is: find an instrument that does what you want without major mods. You also have to remember that the guitar is only a part of the equation. The guitar and amp have to work together to give you what you're looking for.

Good luck.

PS. I used to own a JZ4 too but after a year or so decided it was not to be what I was looking for so I traded it in for something that suited me better. It cost me another $1500 on top of the trade in but I'm really happy with my new instrument and know that all the mods in the world wouldn't make the JZ4 the instrument that I needed.

**mambosun** · 09-04-2011, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Gramps

My answer to the "painful question" is: find an instrument that does what you want without major mods. You also have to remember that the guitar is only a part of the equation. The guitar and amp have to work together to give you what you're looking for.

Good luck.

PS. I used to own a JZ4 too but after a year or so decided it was not to be what I was looking for so I traded it in for something that suited me better. It cost me another $1500 on top of the trade in but I'm really happy with my new instrument and know that all the mods in the world wouldn't make the JZ4 the instrument that I needed.

Thanks Gramps: as indicated above, trading my Greg Benett is not in my agenda for the moment, since I just want to further improve the tone to my taste, not starting from scratch.
Any further suggestions from other contributers?

**MrCharles315** · 10-29-2011, 08:17 PM

Hello everyone,

I'm a newbie guitarist. I have only been playing guitar for about a year but I'm sure that jazz is my passion and, as such, I'm planing on buying my first hollowbody guitar together with an amplifier. I'm posting this so as to get some advice from you experts, who have been at this for much longer than I have

.

Although jazz (particularly smooth jazz) is really what I'm into, I'm still really interested in all other musical genres, and as such I would like (if possible) to get a guitar with a tone flexible enough, to go from jazz to blues to funk or even some rock and country.

I've been looking at entry-level archtops, and at the top of my list, so far, sits the combo Ibañez Artcore AF-75 and the Roland Cube 40XL. However, I've not been able to get much information on the pickups installed on the AF-75 and that leaves me a bit unsure. Another combo which I have in mind is the beautiful Epiphone Broadway and the Cube 20XL. I've also looked at the Epiphone ES-175, but what I think I really want is a full-sized archtop in order to get that full, warm sound.

As you might tell, I'm not certain as to which of the two (guitar or amp) I should invest more. Should they be balanced, should I get a nicer guitar and later on purchase a nice amp or the other way around? I have a budget of about 750 ~ 800€ for both items + a case which I'm sure I want to buy as to have my future archtop well kept. Please send out some ideas on what you think would be best for a real beginner at this wonderful art.

Thanks in advance and best Regards

**mr. beaumont** · 10-29-2011, 10:04 PM

The 175 isa full sized archtop.

If you want to play other kinds of music on the same guitar, you might consider a semi hollow.

You can't go wrong with the cubes. Get the bigger one in case you end up jamming with folks.

No other advice on the guitar end, other than play as many as you can, or order online from someone with a good return policy. Sometimes it takes a while to find the right guitar.

**Patrick2** · 10-29-2011, 10:54 PM

I agree with mr. beaumont. Based upon what you say you want to play, a full size arch top would be a big mistake, if it is your only guitar. A semi-hollow . . . Gibson ES335 or Heritage 535 type guitar will give you everything you are looking for. Probably the most versatile guitar you can buy. Larry Carlton, Lee Ritenour, John Scofield, Eric Clapton, Grant Green . . . . hell, even SRV was photographed with a beautiful dot neck ES335 for the cover of one of his albums. Warren Haynes has a beauty too. B.B. King, Otis rush, John Lee Hooker, Chuck Berry, Alvin Lee. It will scream and howel when you want it to . . . flip on to the neck pup, turn down the volume a bit and get some great jazzy mellow tones out of it as well.

**mr. beaumont** · 10-29-2011, 11:12 PM

Yeah, taking nothing away from a full archtop--they're a breed all their own and one I love--but there's really not many guitars that excel at jazz and are versatile like a semi hollow.

Unless of course, you wanna talk telecasters

**jorgemg1984** · 10-30-2011, 06:22 AM

To my taste and feel a 335 is a compromise for both rock and jazz - its the price of versatility. If its your only guitar it might be a good choice (with rounds) but I have one and an archtop and the archtop beats all the ways for jaz... I see a lot of people playing with the 335 these days (due to versatility and Rosenwinkel I think) and I miss listening more people with archtops.

**cjm** · 10-30-2011, 10:19 AM

My two cents:

You will ultimately need two guitars.

A guitar setup as a compromise for playing jazz and rock will fall short with one, or the other, or both. The two guitars could be the same model; for example, a pair of ES-335 clones -- or they could be more specialized, for example an ES-175 for jazz and a Stratocaster for rock. That choice is less important than that each guitar be setup for its intended purpose as part of your tool kit.

Within reasonable limits, the amp is probably more important to your jazz sound than the guitar. Top quality jazz amps tend to cost more than entry level jazz boxes -- generally more than $1k US for new. But entry level jazz boxes can be upgraded relatively easily with better pickups, new bridges, some judicious fretwork, etc...and these upgrades don't have be performed (and paid for) all at once.

The market is nearly saturated with new and used plywood Asian built ES-175 clones and L5 look-a-likes (that are actually ES-350 clones) for between $300 and $1000. With decent strings, some minor upgrades, and proper setup, most of these can be made suitable for professional use...and that's what I would suggest as a first jazz box.

**Doctor Jeff** · 10-30-2011, 10:37 AM

I usually offer the Epi Joe Pass as a good entry-level archtop (and it is), but if you want to play other styles of music, I would go with either a 335-type guitar or a Telecaster. Both can be had for a decent price - one of the pitfalls of young guitarists is spending a lot of money for a dream guitar before you know exactly what kind of music you will be playing in 10-15 years.

A Tele with higher gauge strings and an SD Alnico 2 pickup at the neck is an awesome jazz machine - would have been my first guitar had I known then (30 years ago) what I know now.

I would also consider the Fender Super Champ XD as a good hybrid amp with Fender tone and decent effects and emulations at a great price.

**MrCharles315** · 10-30-2011, 07:37 PM

First of all, thank you for all your replies. You really managed to "stir the pot" inside my head.

I'm not sure a full sized archtop would be a big mistake as I really do love Jazz the most out of all music genres, and I think one can play funk and blues and say, rockabilly on archtops, right?

The jazz tone I sometimes hear on YouTube coming from archtops is just so beautiful and inspiring (such as

), but I suppose those are very expensive setups, and maybe I can't get such a tone on my budget, what do you think?

I've also been listening to some Telecasters, and some are in fact amazing when it comes to a jazz tone, and overall versatility, but from what I see there is a huge variety of Telecasters, could you suggest some particular models for me to look up?

I do agree with cjm, one guitar can't do it all, but since I'm getting really into jazz I'm really leaning towards either a semi-hollow or a full hollow at this time. What are your thoughs on the Sheraton II and the 335?

Best Regards

**Doctor Jeff** · 10-31-2011, 08:00 AM

A MIM Tele is a good start. The Classic Vibes are pretty good also in my opinion. Some people like a humbucker at the neck, but i have an SD Alnico 2 that is nice and mellow. Just try a few.

The Sheraton 2 is a nice guitar, full hollow. Epiphone just came out with a 339, which I think is a cool guitar as well. With a good setup and perhaps some new pickups the Epiphones generally play pretty well at a fraction of the cost of their Gibson counterparts.

**mr. beaumont** · 10-31-2011, 08:09 AM

Sheraton's a semi hollow, I believe...the casino is a fully hollow thinline body.

**rpguitar** · 10-31-2011, 08:59 AM

With all due respect to my fellow responders, the "need" to own more than one electric guitar is really more the burden of the far more experienced player. Our OP has been playing for only one year. Don't complicate his world.

An ES-175 strung with nickel roundwound 11's and equipped with a metal tune-o-matic style bridge is extremely versatile. It will rock, twang, and bop just fine - especially for a new player who has quite a while before he'll "grow into" what the guitar is capable of. There is no rule that says you must put flatwound 13's and a wooden bridge on them. That is what makes such a guitar less versatile, not the box itself.

**coolvinny** · 10-31-2011, 11:40 AM

Nobody's chimed in to mention you don't need an archtop to play jazz? If cost is a concern, just grab any old tele (preferably with a humbucker, but definitely not a necessity), throw on some TI flatwound 10's or 11's, and you're set. You also needn't break the bank on an amp - a ZT Lunchbox is probably all you need and they cost $300.

**cjm** · 10-31-2011, 11:59 AM

I suppose we could have asked the OP, but since he described his experience as having played for the past year, and that he now primarily wants to play jazz, and wanted advice on a hollowbody/semi hollowbody, but also wants to play blues, funk, rock and country...I made the assumption (always dangerous) that he probably already has a solidbody guitar that would serve the multi-purpose role about as well as anything...and so I confined my comments mostly to the entry level hollowbody guitar.

So how about it, MrCharles315? (If 315 is indeed your name.

) What kind of ax have you already got, and that might serve as your rock guitar alongside something dedicated to jazz?

**mr. beaumont** · 10-31-2011, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

You are correct sir. However the Sheraton is a really badass-looking guitar with the John Lee Hooker mojo. Much nicer than your average Dot.

I would agree.

Actually, the Sheraton's a nice choice, and one of the few times I like the "blingier" model... The ones I've played have always been set up well with a nice fit and finish...a well done guitar.

**rpguitar** · 10-31-2011, 12:47 PM

If the OP considers a hybrid of the 335 and 175, that being a fully hollow but thinline guitar of pseudo-Gibson lineage, I have one I'd sell for a decent price:

A 50th Anniversary Epiphone Casino in ice tea burst, with only a couple hundred measures on it. Was $800 new (great deal!) and could be yours for, like, $650 plus shipping.

PM me if interested. And even if not, the Casino is a nice choice for a versatile guitar.

**MrCharles315** · 10-31-2011, 01:12 PM

Nope, 315 is not part of my real name. ehehe
I apologize for the confusion, I should have made my post a little more informative.

As a matter a fact, I really do not own any guitar other than my steel stringed acoustic, and this purchase would pretty much be my first take at owning an electric guitar. I've been considering the full hollow / semi-hollow because jazz solos really are what make my heart speed up, but I'm still very "fresh" at guitar playing, and maybe it does make sense to have a solid body first, such as a telecaster, and later on move onto a hollow body, but what do you think? Could a beautiful epiphone casino or sheraton II be as versatile as a telecaster, and still provide that warm mellow tone for jazz which I 'm looking for?