My First Jazz Guitar - Help!

[nic]

You state in your original post that you really like the tone but that it is not the lush tone that your hero's have. You know, those guy are playing $5,000 plus guitars that are probably tweaked to perfection and they almost certainly have the best amps available. In addition, if you are listening to studio recordings the tone can be manipulated in the studio. In other words, I think your quest is unachievable with a $500 guitar.

If you have a sound you like, as you stated, you are ahead of the game. I would suggest you stick with what you have and start saving money until you can buy that L5 (or whatever suites you).

If you are a beginner or intermediate player then jazz lessons will do more to improve your tone than any guitar nods could.

[mambosun]

You state in your original post that you really like the tone but that it is not the lush tone that your hero's have. You know, those guy are playing $5,000 plus guitars that are probably tweaked to perfection and they almost certainly have the best amps available. In addition, if you are listening to studio recordings the tone can be manipulated in the studio. In other words, I think your quest is unachievable with a $500 guitar.

If you have a sound you like, as you stated, you are ahead of the game. I would suggest you stick with what you have and start saving money until you can buy that L5 (or whatever suites you).

If you are a beginner or intermediate player then jazz lessons will do more to improve your tone than any guitar nods could.

Yes you're right, and I'm quite aware about the sound gap between what your hear from vintage recordings, the tone interactions with other instruments, the amps, the microphones in the studio, the EQ etc.... and the real world.
But I too heard some sound clips in the web that have been recorded with the JZ4 that had the tone in the right direction, hence I'm quite confident about the realism of my quest.

[mambosun]

I plan to swap the stock TOM and install a wood bridge while keeping the stock wood saddle of my JZ4 archtop
However, according to guitar accessories web sites (eg: Stewmac) I noticed post spacing difference between TOM (2,90") and wood bridge (2,98).
Do you now any alternative maker which sell wood bridge with matching post spacing with the TOM?

[Dad3353]

...Do you now any alternative maker which sell wood bridge with matching post spacing with the TOM?

Good evening, Christian...
This...
John Moriarty wooden bridge
...has been recommended previously on the forum; looks good to me.
Hope this helps...

[cjm]

With regard to strings: Remember that most of the recordings from the 1940's and up through the 1950's were made with guitars using round wound strings. Flats are sometimes the ticket for a particular guitar and/or a particular guitar player, but they are not an absolute requirement for every guitar and every guitar player to achieve to achieve a "lush" jazz tone.

But as we approach today's readily available Asian laminate archtops and compare them to (primarily laminate) archtops widely used by jazzers during the bebop~cool jazz eras, we cannot expect them to deliver similar sonic performance if we don't string them similarly.

A set of nickel wound strings that runs .013" to .058" E-to-E is a medium gauge set in this context.

Heavy picks and picking position are important too, to help these medium gauge strings work the guitar's top. Some guitars deliver a good jazz tone picking between the neck pickup and the bridge -- but there are others that simply sound "thin and weedy" until you are picking over the end of the fingerboard.

I've played some Samick archtops, although I've never purchased one. The ones I tried had a decent sound even with the stock pickups -- but you've got to find it.

And if it was my guitar, before spending any more money on hardware, I'd try stringing it MUCH heavier with what were once considered medium gauge strings and then experiment with picking position.

You will probably have to put together your own string set out of the "singles bins" at your local shop to do this, and there is a good chance you'll need a truss rod adjustment and a slightly higher action after you do.

But you will also begin to work the guitar the way an archtop was designed to be worked and it will change the sound -- in my experience and opinion, almost always for the better.

[mambosun]

Good evening, Christian...
This...
John Moriarty wooden bridge
...has been recommended previously on the forum; looks good to me.
Hope this helps...

Thanks for your input, but a bit too pricey for me. I was looking for a more "generic" option in oder to just give it a try.
For me, while wood bridge is supposed to improve the tone, I'm not quite sure about the expected results regarding intonation and slight loss in sustain as others have reported.

[mambosun]

With regard to strings: Remember that most of the recordings from the 1940's and up through the 1950's were made with guitars using round wound strings. Flats are sometimes the ticket for a particular guitar and/or a particular guitar player, but they are not an absolute requirement for every guitar and every guitar player to achieve to achieve a "lush" jazz tone.

But as we approach today's readily available Asian laminate archtops and compare them to (primarily laminate) archtops widely used by jazzers during the bebop~cool jazz eras, we cannot expect them to deliver similar sonic performance if we don't string them similarly.

A set of nickel wound strings that runs .013" to .058" E-to-E is a medium gauge set in this context.

Heavy picks and picking position are important too, to help these medium gauge strings work the guitar's top. Some guitars deliver a good jazz tone picking between the neck pickup and the bridge -- but there are others that simply sound "thin and weedy" until you are picking over the end of the fingerboard.

I've played some Samick archtops, although I've never purchased one. The ones I tried had a decent sound even with the stock pickups -- but you've got to find it.

And if it was my guitar, before spending any more money on hardware, I'd try stringing it MUCH heavier with what were once considered medium gauge strings and then experiment with picking position.

You will probably have to put together your own string set out of the "singles bins" at your local shop to do this, and there is a good chance you'll need a truss rod adjustment and a slightly higher action after you do.

But you will also begin to work the guitar the way an archtop was designed to be worked and it will change the sound -- in my experience and opinion, almost always for the better.

Thanks you a lot for your informative reply.
I think your statement regarding gauge makes sense, but since I'm far from being a skilled jazz guitar player, I'm a bit reluctant to put heavier gauge than 012/052 I have today, and make it to tough to play.

[rschwa9966]

I've learned from this forum and bought a Fender Telecaster. Great warm, jazz tone, even though it's a solid-body guitar.

[mambosun]

I've learned from this forum and bought a Fender Telecaster. Great warm, jazz tone, even though it's a solid-body guitar.

Thanks, I have a Telecaster myself and plugged into the appropriate amp (JC120 for instance) I confirm I can get a sweet jazz tone too, however not the same sort an archtop could produce.

[Silentwiz]

I think I'll throw my hat in the ring here for the heck of it -- and my hat is sure a bit off-color, but what the heck...

I am a firm believer that a solid body guitar is a much much better overall jazz instrument than a traditional archtop (obviously referencing amplified music). I believe that 90+% (perhaps 99%) of the tone of an instrument is a function of:

- strings
- guitar knob settings
- amp knob settings
- pickup

...and much much lower in my book
- fingerboard
- body / neck wood
- bridge

So with my nutball perspective in mind, I believe that a first MUST DO change is to swap in some Thomastik Infeld Benson (or Swing) 12 flatwounds. No question about it. Get a proper set up and start fiddling with the knobs.

I get a wonderful jazz tone out of a $300 Squier CVC Tele with flatwounds through a $300 ZT Lunchbox amp -- and it's the flatwounds and knob settings.

Now, if you want to step it up a bit, there are pickups a plenty -- but I think the most cost effective and predictable pickup to go with is the Seymour Duncan Alnico Pro II. These are relatively cheap and easy to procure anywhere. You get that going and you're 80-90% there.

As a result, you need to really have some love for the traditional if you want to deal with the ergonomics and fragility of a bigger box -- after all, it's a fricken box!

Seriously, can you imagine how well I sleep at night knowing that I can spring for a $300 Squier CV guitar, a $60-80 pickup, $20 strings and a cheapie amp (ZT, Roland Cube, etc) and I'm golden for most gigs? Let my playing do the rest, eh?

Good luck with the quest!

[frogeye]

I plan to swap the stock TOM and install a wood bridge while keeping the stock wood saddle of my JZ4 archtop
However, according to guitar accessories web sites (eg: Stewmac) I noticed post spacing difference between TOM (2,90") and wood bridge (2,98).
Do you now any alternative maker which sell wood bridge with matching post spacing with the TOM?

I guess that had ADD when first reading your post Causing me to post an irrelevant answer that I'm hereby correcting. I would just go ahead and order the wooden replacement bridge. Once it arrives in the mail transfer the string spacing of your TOM and try to fit the new bridge altogether. Chances are that the bottom shape is just fine.
I have swapped out worn bridges on 2 guitars of mine and used generic replacements from online stores and in one case the base fitted nicely out of the box. In case that the base is totally off from what you need you can either sand the base down for better fit or worse case you get yourself some epoxy filler at the local hardware store and close the holes in the top piece of the new bridge. Let it dry and take measurements for the posts from TOM bridge and drill 2 short new post holes.

Good luck and all the best.

[coolvinny]

I think I'll throw my hat in the ring here for the heck of it -- and my hat is sure a bit off-color, but what the heck...

.....
As a result, you need to really have some love for the traditional if you want to deal with the ergonomics and fragility of a bigger box -- after all, it's a fricken box!

.....

This is not the first time I've heard someone talk about how solid body guitars are more ergonomic than archtops. However, for me, it's just the opposite - I hate how solid body guitars put the nut a few inches farther away from me; that causes me to have more left-wrist bend than I'd like, especially at or below the 5th fret. My 16" x 3" archtop is just a perfect fit whether I'm sitting or standing; I use a strap so the guitar always sits in the same place relative to my body. My tele-style solid body guitar is nowhere near as comfortable for me, especially when standing. Disclaimer: I am pretty short (but have long arms and my hands are not small), so YMMV.

But if someone finds solid body guitars comfortable to play, then I see no reason why a tele-style guitar couldn't be one's "first jazz box".

[FWBO]

Mambosun,

I understand your reluctance to "take on" heavier guage strings such as TI 14's but you would be surprised how playable they are. They have the same string tension across the neck and being nickel they feel softer than D'Addario chromes. If you aren't up to doing your own setup then get the luthier to do one for you. TI's last longer than Chromes so the price is not a consideration.

I was interested in your comment about playing and sounding good through the Princeton. I have purchased a Headstrong Lil' King S amp and it is a Princeton clone with a marginally higher output - designed for jazz. I can get a good lush, creamy jazz tone with all my (Asian) guitars. I like my Fender Jazz King as well but the Headstrong really gives the tone I was looking for in spades. A few friends have played very cheap (£100) non branded strats through it and the guitars sound very good.

Now an expensive amp like the Headstrong (or a Princeton for that matter) will set you back £1600 and that is a lot of money BUT...a Vintage American jazz box is going to set you back a lot more.

I am sure there are many routes to a good tone. I prefer to have a number of cheaper asian guitars (well set up) and an expensive amp to make them all sound good. With your mixture of music styles and therefore needing to have several guitars, perhaps this route might suit you too?

[mr. beaumont]

The Headstrong amps are highly regarded, and for good reason: They're excellent.

[FWBO]

The Headstrong amps are highly regarded, and for good reason: They're excellent.

thanks Mr B,

but can an amp make up for sonic deficiencies of a guitar?

[mambosun]

I understand your reluctance to "take on" heavier guage strings such as TI 14's but you would be surprised how playable they are. They have the same string tension across the neck and being nickel they feel softer than D'Addario chromes

Thanks, I take your point. I already ordered a TI set of 013/53 for a start. Regarding string tension, my only concern is my ability to cleanly execute complexe and tough jazz chords.

Now an expensive amp like the Headstrong (or a Princeton for that matter) will set you back £1600 and that is a lot of money BUT...a Vintage American jazz box is going to set you back a lot more.

As stated before, I played my Ibanez AS120 on a 70 SF Princeton Reverb for couple of gigs and was amazed by the sound differences with my Vintage SF Twin reverb.
But it could be also that particular Princeton which sounded so good.

[mambosun]

Seriously, can you imagine how well I sleep at night knowing that I can spring for a $300 Squier CV guitar, a $60-80 pickup, $20 strings and a cheapie amp (ZT, Roland Cube, etc) and I'm golden for most gigs? Let my playing do the rest, eh?

Thanks for your inputs.
I sleep well myself, don't worry about that.
At the end of the day,the main concern that could cause me some trouble is: When could I play decent and convincing (to my ears) Jazz guitar ?
For that rason I took my first jazz guitar lesson for years, a lot of theory to swallow, very hard and slow process for a self-taught guitar player like me but I'm afraid, really inavoidable. Not to say hours, days, weeks, month of intensive practice....

[mambosun]

I made an interesting experiment this week end; I was practising jazz with my archtop plugged to my Micro-Cube, usually not really a good match since the bass notes buzz horribly when trying to get a a clean jazz tone by selecting either JC or Black Pannel settings. Moreover, I can't get the dark tone I'm looking for, it still sounds a bit too acoustic to my taste.
Then I decided to try out the Brit Combo, with the gain set to zero and to my big surprise I could get closer to the desired sound, a sort of fat and rich electric tone with enough acoustic depht in it , a bit à la Tal Farlow. Well, within the Micro cube limits of course....
Funny enough, is'nt it?

[Banksia]

That doesn't surprise me. I used to get good jazz sounds from a VoxAC30, which was one of the main amps in early BritRock.

[jazzbow]

I made an interesting experiment this week end; I was practising jazz with my archtop plugged to my Micro-Cube, usually not really a good match since the bass notes buzz horribly when trying to get a a clean jazz tone by selecting either JC or Black Pannel settings. Moreover, I can't get the dark tone I'm looking for, it still sounds a bit too acoustic to my taste.
Then I decided to try out the Brit Combo, with the gain set to zero and to my big surprise I could get closer to the desired sound, a sort of fat and rich electric tone with enough acoustic depht in it , a bit à la Tal Farlow. Well, within the Micro cube limits of course....
Funny enough, is'nt it?

I put a compressor in front of a micro cube black face/ jc with a hollow bodied guitar with a single coil, I was go to go with a session with alto sax + clarinet + electric bass with 10 watt combo.
Not the best sound but ok

[frogeye]

I made an interesting experiment this week end; I was practising jazz with my archtop plugged to my Micro-Cube, usually not really a good match since the bass notes buzz horribly when trying to get a a clean jazz tone by selecting either JC or Black Pannel settings. Moreover, I can't get the dark tone I'm looking for, it still sounds a bit too acoustic to my taste.
Then I decided to try out the Brit Combo, with the gain set to zero and to my big surprise I could get closer to the desired sound, a sort of fat and rich electric tone with enough acoustic depht in it , a bit à la Tal Farlow. Well, within the Micro cube limits of course....
Funny enough, is'nt it?

Did you ever end up swapping out the TOM bridge?

[mambosun]

Did you ever end up swapping out the TOM bridge?

Not yet, but I really doubted this bridge swap would be a major change in tone.
I however planned to do it but would like to discuss soon about this with my luthier as well as other issues which might help to fine-tune my sound.

[frogeye]

Not yet, but I really doubted this bridge swap would be a major change in tone.
I however planned to do it but would like to discuss soon about this with my luthier as well as other issues which might help to fine-tune my sound.

Well it depends on what you would consider to be "major". I agree that it wouldn't change the sound of any guitar from "terrible" to "great" that said I can say from experience that it will make enough difference that it should be considered when "fine-tuning" a good sounding guitar's tone. It's not the right thing to do for every guitar and should only be considered depending on the tonal characteristics of the instrument to begin with and based on the sound that you are trying to get to. In general you can expect an albeit small shift to a "darker" , "less brilliant" tone by swapping the bridge particular if you use rosewood as it is apparently a softer material than ebony. I changed a worn and rattling bridge on my vintage flat-top jazz guitar to an ebony bridge and besides getting rid of that rattle I noticed a very slight drop in brilliance. My guitar teacher did swap the factory TOM bridge to rosewood on his ES175 and according to him the change in tone was very much noticeable and it got him closer to the tone that he was looking for. Cheers

[mambosun]

Well it depends on what you would consider to be "major". I agree that it wouldn't change the sound of any guitar from "terrible" to "great" that said I can say from experience that it will make enough difference that it should be considered when "fine-tuning" a good sounding guitar's tone. It's not the right thing to do for every guitar and should only be considered depending on the tonal characteristics of the instrument to begin with and based on the sound that you are trying to get to. In general you can expect an albeit small shift to a "darker" , "less brilliant" tone by swapping the bridge particular if you use rosewood as it is apparently a softer material than ebony. I changed a worn and rattling bridge on my vintage flat-top jazz guitar to an ebony bridge and besides getting rid of that rattle I noticed a very slight drop in brilliance. My guitar teacher did swap the factory TOM bridge to rosewood on his ES175 and according to him the change in tone was very much noticeable and it got him closer to the tone that he was looking for. Cheers

I agree, improvement expected from swaping the bridge from TOM to rosewood should be very guitar-dependent, as any other "upgrades".
This being said, it should help me to get the tone I'm after, that's why I keep this option in my agenda;the only drawback I see is a possible loss in intonation which is perfect today on my guitar.
BTW, why high-end Gibson Custom archtops such as today's Super 400, Tal Farlow, Byrdland or L5 CES come with a TOM?

[frogeye]

BTW, why high-end Gibson Custom archtops such as today's Super 400, Tal Farlow, Byrdland or L5 CES come with a TOM?

Hey, I own several guitars with wooden bridges and have no issues with intonation. I do not know why TOM bridges have become standard on not only the high end but most any Gibson archtop guitars these days, however, I don't buy into the idea that it has anything to do with tone. If you like to check out the web pages of Benedetto, The Heritage, and a few others you will see that they stick to the wooden bridge as standard for their high end archtop hollow body guitars. Most anyone who has had the (rare) chance to play one of Bob Benedetto's high end instruments would agree with the statement that Benedetto guitars don't fall behind when compared to a Gibson archtop guitar and The Heritage Golden Eagle is a great sounding archtop for my 2 cents worth and IMHO can certainly stand up against comparable models coming from the Gibson factory.

I went into the City last night to listen to Sheryl Bailey and Vic Juris at 55 bar and Sheryl played a small bodied McCurdy Mercury 14" hollowbody guitar that sounded very nice and I was actually surprised to see that it features a ebony bridge. The great Jack Wilkins plays Benedetto guitars with wooden bridge and sounds phenomenal.