My First Jazz Guitar - Help!

[mr. beaumont]

I normally agree with LittleJay on just about everything, but I must disagree with his assessment of the tone of the jazztone picks!

to me, they're the least squaky and shrill going! they sound the most like my thumb, which is the best tone, IMHO--but with my nail for nylon bossa playing, wes-style thumbing is pretty much out for me.

I have found (and I stick to my guns) that nothing is brighter or "clickier" than picks made of horn or wood. Ebony is an extremely hard wood, and the tone it produces is VERY bright to my ears. Same thing with a dunlop stubby--excruciatingly bright!

As for the bartolini, I'm a little pissed off at this "luthier." Snake oil salesman, more like it! You tell him you like the sound of cats like Raney and Rene, and he points you towards a modern pickup that's all about picking up the natural acoustic sound of the instrument! You'd have been better off with the stock floater, or better yet, a jazz box with a routed in pickup. But there's no time to be upset about that now, we can get you a good tone with what you have.

flatwound strings, different pick, maybe roll a little tone off on the guitar (or better yet, don't run your volume at 10 on the guitar, run it a little shy...smooths out the high end usually) You've got a premier amp, and a decent guitar. There's good tone in there, there has to be.

[Little Jay]

I normally agree with LittleJay on just about everything, but I must disagree with his assessment of the tone of the jazztone picks!

Oh, but I don't think we realy dissagree! I would hate that!
For me the Jazztones deliver a nice dark and round tone, but since they are quite hard (harder plactic than the Stubbies or whatever they are called), I thought they can under circumstances sound squaky.... or maybe I should have said it's possible they could..... but perhaps they don't. And all the time I thought it was my secret special picking-technique that made them sound so lush and jazzy......

Anyway Mambosun: definately try a Jazztone pick!

[mambosun]

Oh, but I don't think we realy dissagree! I would hate that!
For me the Jazztones deliver a nice dark and round tone, but since they are quite hard (harder plactic than the Stubbies or whatever they are called), I thought they can under circumstances sound squaky.... or maybe I should have said it's possible they could..... but perhaps they don't. And all the time I thought it was my secret special picking-technique that made them sound so lush and jazzy......

Anyway Mambosun: definately try a Jazztone pick!

Yeah, I'm quite happy, this will be a cheap upgrade !

[mambosun]

As for the bartolini, I'm a little pissed off at this "luthier." Snake oil salesman, more like it! You tell him you like the sound of cats like Raney and Rene, and he points you towards a modern pickup that's all about picking up the natural acoustic sound of the instrument! You'd have been better off with the stock floater, or better yet, a jazz box with a routed in pickup. But there's no time to be upset about that now, we can get you a good tone with what you have.

Thanks Mr Beaumont,
When selecting the archtop model, I have to say, floating pick up vs mounted humbucker was my initial request to the luthier, as I thought, this would be the right option to get the woody and deep tone. And surely (I naively thought) a better pickup would give better result.
Anyway, I'll go back to the shop as soon as they open after summer closing and yes I already considered, putting back the stock pickup.

Sticking to floaters, do you thing a Kent Amstrong could be a valid alternative?

[mr. beaumont]

Thanks Mr Beaumont,
When selecting the archtop model, I have to say, floating pick up vs mounted humbucker was my initial request to the luthier, as I thought, this would be the right option to get the woody and deep tone. And surely (I naively thought) a better pickup would give better result.
Anyway, I'll go back to the shop as soon as they open after summer closing and yes I already considered, putting back the stock pickup.

Sticking to floaters, do you thing a Kent Amstrong could be a valid alternative?

Yes.

Go to archtop.com and see what they have available, and don't forget the vintage market too...My old Kay has a dearmond guitar mic on it, and that pickup is the KEY to the fact that guitar sounds so good plugged in.

[Dad3353]

Bonsoir, Mambosun...
I have a Samick 335 copy, a Hofner Committee and a Xaviere XV600 (tele thinline-like...), amongst others. My amps are Roland Jazz Chorus and Fender Bassman Export 50.
I don't know about yankee prices etc., but in Europe, we have an advantage when it comes to Hofner, quite quite easy to find in Germany or England, and (relatively...) reasonably priced.
I can't say exactly how to get the sound you want, of course, but there is a world of difference between my Hofner and the Samick (I love both, but they are very different...). You might try playing/listening to a vintage Hofner (President, Committee or even a Verithin...), or their current newer models (New President...), you may be surprised by the tone. It is certainly closer to a 'jazz box' sound than your Asian guitars, good as they might be.
They often turn up on Ebay, but you would definitely want to have an idea of their sound before considering investing.
Hope this helps...

[mambosun]

Bonsoir, Mambosun...
I have a Samick 335 copy, a Hofner Committee and a Xaviere XV600 (tele thinline-like...), amongst others. My amps are Roland Jazz Chorus and Fender Bassman Export 50.
I don't know about yankee prices etc., but in Europe, we have an advantage when it comes to Hofner, quite quite easy to find in Germany or England, and (relatively...) reasonably priced.
I can't say exactly how to get the sound you want, of course, but there is a world of difference between my Hofner and the Samick (I love both, but they are very different...). You might try playing/listening to a vintage Hofner (President, Committee or even a Verithin...), or their current newer models (New President...), you may be surprised by the tone. It is certainly closer to a 'jazz box' sound than your Asian guitars, good as they might be.
They often turn up on Ebay, but you would definitely want to have an idea of their sound before considering investing.
Hope this helps...

Hi DAD, and thank you for your contribution.
Just to clear up any ambiguity about my previous messages, I love my Samick archtop and don't plan to change it or to buy another one (it's the fifth guitar I already own).
All I need is some good advices to improve my tone.
I already know I won't have the sound from a 13000$ guitar (list price for a Gibson L5), just pick all expert suggestions that could bring me close to this.

[mambosun]

Yes.

Go to archtop.com and see what they have available, and don't forget the vintage market too...My old Kay has a dearmond guitar mic on it, and that pickup is the KEY to the fact that guitar sounds so good plugged in.

Thanks,

I'm a bit confused regarding Kent Amstrong pickup.
In Archtop.com it is advised that the most common Kent Amstrong floating pick up offer in the market are only pale copy with mediocre sound, hence the need to order from them.
In your experience, are not all K Amstrong pickups from the same making and is this just marketing?

[Bill C]

Thanks,

I'm a bit confused regarding Kent Amstrong pickup.
In Archtop.com it is advised that the most common Kent Amstrong floating pick up offer in the market are only pale copy with mediocre sound, hence the need to order from them.
In your experience, are not all K Amstrong pickups from the same making and is this just marketing?

There are production line pickups sold under the KA name and also handmade pickups made by Kent himself as sold by archtop.com

[mambosun]

There are production line pickups sold under the KA name and also handmade pickups made by Kent himself as sold by archtop.com

Is the quality difference between both that big?
I mean, regarding my Jazzbox, does the mass produced KA model make more sense than the hand made one?

[Bill C]

Is the quality difference between both that big?
I mean, regarding my Jazzbox, does the mass produced KA model make more sense than the hand made one?

I don't know ... I have played a couple of guitars with handmade KA *built-in* humbuckers and the pickups were very nice - quite "refined" sounding to my ears ...

[mambosun]

I have another question for you, experts:

While playing unplugged, I notice a slight spring-like overtone coming from the portion of strings which lies between tailpiece and bridge.
This is not audible in the amplified sound
I guess most archtop guitars should be more or less affected by this.
Any suggestion to reduce/ suppress this overtone?

[Dad3353]

Good evening, Mambosun...
Try a ribbon of felt 'snaked' (woven..?) between the strings between bridge and tailpiece; you may adjust the distance from the edge to dampen/eliminate this (a shoelace works too...). Personally I like these 'parasitic' sounds (may be my lousy taste..?). They're part of the character of the instrument (especially the Committee...).
Leaving it to ring, it can be integrated into one's playing (strumming below the bridge...) for 'special' effects, but we're quite a long way 'outside' in doing that...

[mambosun]

Good evening, Mambosun...
Try a ribbon of felt 'snaked' (woven..?) between the strings between bridge and tailpiece; you may adjust the distance from the edge to dampen/eliminate this (a shoelace works too...). Personally I like these 'parasitic' sounds (may be my lousy taste..?). They're part of the character of the instrument (especially the Committee...).
Leaving it to ring, it can be integrated into one's playing (strumming below the bridge...) for 'special' effects, but we're quite a long way 'outside' in doing that...

Thanks Dad,
Prior to asking this question, I've already experimented with a piece of cloth wedged between strings and the guitar top and it works fine .

I was considering something less cosmetically intrusive...

[frogeye]

I have another question for you, experts:

While playing unplugged, I notice a slight spring-like overtone coming from the portion of strings which lies between tailpiece and bridge.
This is not audible in the amplified sound
I guess most archtop guitars should be more or less affected by this.
Any suggestion to reduce/ suppress this overtone?

Hey mambosun, sorry for joining late. I read in your original post that your guitar is equipped with a tune-o-matic bridge, right? I strongly recommend that you try a regular rosewood or ebony bridge instead. This is a very inexpensive swap that typically has a significant impact to the the tone. You may be able to only swap out the top piece and keep the base as long as you can match the post spacing. Tis way you won't have to worry about fitting/sanding a new base to the arch of your guitar's top. My guitar teacher plays an ES-175 and according to him this was the best decision he made by swapping out the TOM to a standard wood bridge. I wouldn't be surprised if that will somewhat take care of your overtone issue described above.

[mr. beaumont]

Is the quality difference between both that big?
I mean, regarding my Jazzbox, does the mass produced KA model make more sense than the hand made one?

The mass produced one is essentially the same as the floater that was on your guitar when you bought it.

The "real" KA is worth the extra bucks--it's not that expensive in the grand scheme of things.

[frogeye]

The mass produced one is essentially the same as the floater that was on your guitar when you bought it.

The "real" KA is worth the extra bucks--it's not that expensive in the grand scheme of things.

I agree with mr. b.

[mambosun]

Hey mambosun, sorry for joining late. I read in your original post that your guitar is equipped with a tune-o-matic bridge, right? I strongly recommend that you try a regular rosewood or ebony bridge instead. This is a very inexpensive swap that typically has a significant impact to the the tone. You may be able to only swap out the top piece and keep the base as long as you can match the post spacing. Tis way you won't have to worry about fitting/sanding a new base to the arch of your guitar's top. My guitar teacher plays an ES-175 and according to him this was the best decision he made by swapping out the TOM to a standard wood bridge. I wouldn't be surprised if that will somewhat take care of your overtone issue described above.

Thanks Frogeye
According to Gregg Benett website, my guitar is usually available either fitted with wood or TOM brifge; mine, as you noticed, came with the Tune o Matic when I bought it.
I'll investigate this soon.
However, I've read various pros and cons comments regarding this issue, for instance, whether wood bridge (Ebony or Rosewood) would keep the right intonation as the TOM I have today.
Does the wood bridge require heavy gauge to sound right?

[mambosun]

The mass produced one is essentially the same as the floater that was on your guitar when you bought it.

The "real" KA is worth the extra bucks--it's not that expensive in the grand scheme of things.

Not available in France but while googling a bit, I found this:
Kent Armstrong® Jazz Guitar Pickups
Do you think these guys are selling the real stuff?

[frogeye]

However, I've read various pros and cons comments regarding this issue, for instance, whether wood bridge (Ebony or Rosewood) would keep the right intonation as the TOM I have today.
Does the wood bridge require heavy gauge to sound right?

OK, I don't know how light you want to go with string gauge. Unless that you want to go to 0.010 gauge or below I see no issues with using a wooden bridge. BTW, as far as I know back in the days when Jimmy Rainey recorded most of his stuff light gauge strings where virtually non-existent. Anything below 0.012 on a jazz guitar in my book falls in the "noodles" category and while they may sound great to others they don't do it for me. A 0.012 set or above sounds perfect with a wooden bridge.

Also while I totally understand your concern I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to set the intonation right with a standard bridge and I suggest to try a rosewood bridge first. They sell inexpensively online and you can always switch back to the TOM if you for any reason don't like it. All you need to do is loosen the strings and swap out the bridge.

I cannot imagine that anybody out there would seriously recommend using a TOM bridge over the wood bridge for sound improvement on a traditional archtop guitar. Anyone who is recommending such with all respect doesn't seem to know what he/she is talking about. The TOM bridge IMHO was developed to allow for more accurate intonation adjustment which is particularly important when you switch from light to heavy gauge and back every now and so often. I've owned my archtop guitar for 25+ years and after I settled on 0.013 flatwounds I have not had to adjust the intonation nor the neck relief / trussrod until 1 year ago when I switched temporarily to a 0.012 gauge and even then all I had to do was releasing the trussrod by a tiny amount to avoid string buzzing. No adjustment was necessary for the bridge.
Well, don't take my opinion as gospel. just trying to give you my honest opinion. Maybe some of the others want to chime in and share their experience.

[mambosun]

OK, I don't know how light you want to go with string gauge. Unless that you want to go to 0.010 gauge or below I see no issues with using a wooden bridge. BTW, as far as I know back in the days when Jimmy Rainey recorded most of his stuff light gauge strings where virtually non-existent. Anything below 0.012 on a jazz guitar in my book falls in the "noodles" category and while they may sound great to others they don't do it for me. A 0.012 set or above sounds perfect with a wooden bridge.

Also while I totally understand your concern I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to set the intonation right with a standard bridge and I suggest to try a rosewood bridge first. They sell inexpensively online and you can always switch back to the TOM if you for any reason don't like it. All you need to do is loosen the strings and swap out the bridge.

I cannot imagine that anybody out there would seriously recommend using a TOM bridge over the wood bridge for sound improvement on a traditional archtop guitar. Anyone who is recommending such with all respect doesn't seem to know what he/she is talking about. The TOM bridge IMHO was developed to allow for more accurate intonation adjustment which is particularly important when you switch from light to heavy gauge and back every now and so often. I've owned my archtop guitar for 25+ years and after I settled on 0.013 flatwounds I have not had to adjust the intonation nor the neck relief / trussrod until 1 year ago when I switched temporarily to a 0.012 gauge and even then all I had to do was releasing the trussrod by a tiny amount to avoid string buzzing. No adjustment was necessary for the bridge.
Well, don't take my opinion as gospel. just trying to give you my honest opinion. Maybe some of the others want to chime in and share their experience.

Thanks again and don't worry, this is really an honest and very informative opinion; all I need is this kind of experienced feedback from real user, not from marketing people eager to sell you the latest snake oil stuff or tweak.

I think heavy gauge is the good direction, this should help too, to get the right jazz tone from my archtop.

For instance, I'm considering TI flatwound strings with gauge such as 0.12/à.50 or even, 0.13/0.53 but my only concern is: would I still be able to play all these complicated jazz chords with heavy gauge like these (FYI, on my rock guitars I currently use 0.10/0.52 and 0.11/0.50 on my archtop)....

[frogeye]

That's tough to answer. My general answer would be yes as long as the action is set properly and that you are using strings that "match" your guitar in respect to string tension. My jazz box has the standard Gibson scale of 24.75" (like ES-175, L-4) while your guitar has a scale of 25.5" (Super 400, L-5) which comes with slightly higher string tension at a defined pitch. While I have no problem with using .013 sets from all kinds of different manufacturers on my guitar I may very well have a different opinion about that if I would be switching to a 25.5" scale instrument.
TI flatwounds at .012 seems to be an excellent choice as a starting point for your guitar. I found TI strings to have a somewhat softer feel to them compared to some of the other brands same gauge strings. I came from .010 strings that I still use on my solid body guitars and it didn't take me all that long to adjust to fatter strings. I can play any chord that I can play on my solid body guitar on my jazz guitars as long as it is below the 15th fret. That's due to the limited access to higher frets on my jazz guitars compared to a telecaster and not because of the strings.

[mambosun]

OK, then just let's recap all above solutions kindly suggested by all contributors to this post, about "how to improve my Jazz tone":

- Replace the pickup: Kent Amstrong? Put back the stock floating pickup?
- Heavier string gauge: today D'addario chrome 11/50 to change for 12/52 or TI equivallent.
- Higher action
- Rosewood or Ebony bridge in place of the stock TOM.
- Dunlop Jazztone picks


Further tweaks to consider:
- Ebony Tailpiece?
- Electronics (volume and tone pots)
- Jazz guitar lesson?

Did I miss anything?

As mentionned in my first message, what about floater vs mounted pickup to get this tone?
BTW I noticed that most of my guitar heroes from the 50/60's mainly used mounted pickups (L5, ES150, ES175, Super 400 etc...).
Hence I wonder if I finally went the wrong way by choosing the Arch top+ Floatingpickup option?

[frogeye]

As I stated before I would approach this in small steps and not all at once. I suggest that you try some of the low cost suggestions first (TI strings @ 20 bucks, bridge @25 bucks, Action @ 0 bucks, picks @ pennies) before considering the more costly ones (pickup swap...). At some point your guitar will need new strings anyway so why not trying a different set/ manaufacturer at that point and also swap the bridge. If you then still don't like the sound maybe it's time to cut your losses and start looking for another guitar while getting ready to sell this one. In case that you like the sound much more then maybe it makes sense to swap the pickup. Ebony Tailpieces certainly look beautiful, I question their significance to tone compared to what swapping the TOM bridge can do. Also, none of your guitar idols used one back in the 50s and 60s so why are you expecting to get you closer to "their" sound by using one? I wouldn't touch the electronics as IMHO there is not much opportunity for sound improvement here as long as they work and don't scratch. Guitar lessons are always a good thing to consider. Increasing your daily practice time is another good thing to consider. I did a few months ago and I start to notice improvements.
In respect to your concern regarding routed PUPs versus floaters I can't help you. I just came across this photo that shows a young Mr. Raney with what could very well be a Guild guitar according to the scratchplate/pickguard). Well, I see a D'Armond floater pup with a wood bridge and tone controls clamped to the strings between bridge and (metal) tailpiece. Unfortunately I don't know whether Jimmy was happy with the sound or not but my guess is that it sounded just right to him back then. To me personally the Gibson Johnny Smith guitar is the holy grail of floater PUP archtop guitars. Check out some sound samples on the web to see if and how you like the sound.



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[mambosun]

Thanks a lot for your extensive and wise statements.
I'll try to be wiser myself.
In the meantime, I went back to the shop with my guitar and talked with the luthier.
Since he is a perfectionist sort of guy, he will look after my JZ4 and tryout a different pickup and wood bridge and will let me know.
All these operations will be free of charge !
According to him, as you just said, neither new pots or tailpiece will effectively improve anything, this would be far too subtle.
I'll change also to heavier gauge and will experiment wth the Jazz tone picks.
Guitar lessons are planned too.
A dedicated amplifier (not necessaraly a costly one) could be a serious option to consider as well.
All inputs from you guys were very helpfull and I'd lke to thank again to all of you.
I'll keep you informed....

Christian