Tone Help

[bebop kid]

Little help fellow jazz guitarist... i want to sound like george benson / kenny burrell / ronny jordan (tonewise). i use an Ibanez AF75 w/ semi-flatwound strings (.11) staight to the amp. do i need to use flatwounds? and do i need to use effect pedal? an equalizer or something? and i play in different bars w/ various amps so how can i dial-in the same tone settings every night? coz i cant always bring my amp to the gig...tnx!

[randyc]

Fender Deluxe Reverb, or similar 15 -25 watt tube amplifier and a decent guitar will get you through any "bar" situation. No need for "various amps", stick with one amplifier and one guitar and learn how to control them effectively for different environments. Why reinvent the wheel every night with different equipment? Find a compact amplifier that you can carry in one hand, guitar in the other -

As far as sounding like the guys that you mentioned, they normally play guitars that cost (in todays dollars) around $10k ... and perhaps another $2k in an amplifier. Effects not necessary for classical jazz - they didn't exist when Burrel and Benson did their best work. (Forget advertising gimmicks that may show your favorite artist playing some Chinese knock-off.)

(Repeating) These guys carried a guitar in one hand and a Fender Deluxe Reverb (or similar) in the other hand. Any artist of this caliber could make your Ibanez sing but the best motivation for a jazz musician on the upward curve of the learning plateau is a decent guitar - look at all of the old album covers and see what the masters were playing.

The newer models still sound just as good. Might be a little costly for a beginner BUT if you are playing "bars" frequently - as you suggest - then your income must be tax declared AND your equipment is tax deductible. That's pretty much a 30% discount on a good guitar in addition to what you can negotiate from the dealer. For Gibsons, I automatically assume that the markup is at least 20% too high ...

If you find a new ES-175 priced at $2,500 (as an example), I would expect to pay no more than $2,000. No professional expects to pay the marked price.

Simple advice -
Randy C

PS: forgot to add that the negotiated purchase price of $2,000 will be further depreciated (by tax deduction) so that your eventual investment for the $2,500 guitar will be less than $1,500. Sorry - got distracted and lost my thought regarding tax. It's unlikely that your bar earnings will contibute much to your taxable income so this is universally in the favor of young guitarists playing casual gigs. You can take this write-off for several years - even if you claim a loss on income. Spend some time on the IRS site or ask a knowledgeable person about tax law. MANY Americans lose a LOT of money every year from ignorance of their allowable deductions ..

Cheap guitars will not be able to be deducted from your taxable income - there is a lower limit for the "capital equipment" deduction. Used to be around $500 but it's probably at least double that amount these days.

[bebop kid]

thanks randy very helpful! im in a tight budget right now so im planning to stick with my AF75. what i mean is when i play in different bars, im forced to play with an amp the bar has to offer (be it a vox or fender and sometimes they even has marshall amps). is there a particular eq setting for this? i mean like treble, mid and bass setting in the amp?

by the way, i also have a Fender Bullet Reverb 15 to 38 watts max. i really love the sound of it but that's too small (i guess) and i realy dont want to carry an amp w/ me in gigs. so i'll use what in the bar. is there an effect pedal to copy that sound of the fender bullet reverb?

"Forget advertising gimmicks that may show your favorite artist playing some Chinese knock-off"
- very helpful advice. tnx!

[mr. beaumont]

Boost the mids, cut a little highs, bass to taste.

I'd only play what the bar had if I knew what it was ahead of time.

Where are you playing jazz in bars, btw? I may have to move.

It's never a bad idea to actually have an amp you like and bring it. Polytones will give you a great clean tone and can be found used for $300 or so.

I've gotten into the habit of taking a zt lunchbox everywhere with me now, actually. It's not the be all end all of amps, but it's uber portable, and at least I know I'll sound consistent wherever I go.

[randyc]

I think you'll have to sort out this situation with the help of younger members who share your experiences and your equipment shortage. I started out so many years ago that George Benson was not even a blip on the radar until two decades later.

I remember the tunes that I played, what I carried into the clubs ... and no bar environment provided anything more than a 35 watt Bogen PA system with ONE microphone. These situations produced the quality of jazz that SEEMS to be what modern guitarists strive to emulate - but with some mixture of electronic devices that .... do what?

Good luck, man, it's hard for me to ID with young guys - backgrounds that are so different from mine. Some of the people that young guitarists note as role models are totally unknown to me. (As in one of the three names that you mentioned.)

Modeling amplifiers and the like .... hmmm, how does that technology make one play better? Oh well, I'm just a cranky old guy - conservative about my selections of instruments (not too picky about amplifiers, though).

Good night -

[bebop kid]

@mr.beaumont - thanks dude. im from the phillipines. i really cant afford to bring an amp to a gig. what do you think is best alternative for this? to sound consistent everynight. i know the best tone for jazz is guitar-jack-amp setup. but sometimes i dont want to use the amps available. do you think an equalizer pedal is an option? or an amp modeller? any advice? tnx in advance!

[bebop kid]

@randyc- i know the best setup for jazz is the classic guitar-jack-amp just like what the heavy weights do... it's all in your fingers and feel... thanks man!

[IbanezAS100]

Have you checked out the Fender 65 Deluxe Reverb pedal (FDR 1)? Here's the spec:

• Recreates the legendary tone of the 1965 Fender Deluxe Reverb guitar amp
• Level, Gain, Treble, Bass, Vibrato and Reverb controls
• Road-tough BOSS metal construction
• Perfect pre-gain pedal for adding or retaining Fender tone color

I've not used it myself but there are great reviews out there and it seems like a cost-effective way of controlling your tone whilst using house amps/PA.

Best of luck

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by IbanezAS100

Have you checked out the Fender 65 Deluxe Reverb pedal (FDR 1)? Here's the spec:

• Recreates the legendary tone of the 1965 Fender Deluxe Reverb guitar amp
• Level, Gain, Treble, Bass, Vibrato and Reverb controls
• Road-tough BOSS metal construction
• Perfect pre-gain pedal for adding or retaining Fender tone color

I've not used it myself but there are great reviews out there and it seems like a cost-effective way of controlling your tone whilst using house amps/PA.

Best of luck

Actually, they're terrible for jazz-- they get dirty really fast.

I use a Korg Pandora with the lunchbox for a little reverb/delay. I'm not using a 10th of what it actually offers--most of the effects are just not for me, but the reverbs and delays aren't bad, and it opens up the sound of the little box amp.

These also have built in EQ. I'm sure there's better devices on the market, but I alredy had mine from college (used it as a headphone amp) and figured I'd work with it. They're not expensive new, either, and about the size of a pack of cigarettes.

Do some hunting, maybe a post on a more rock-oriented board about good small amp modelers. You'll really probably only be interested in the reverbs and the EQ, really.

[randyc]

Good insights, ingeneri and great to hear from you again !

[bebop kid]

thanks for the ideas! ingeneri, you got it man. thats our situation here in our country.so i think mr. beaumont's suggestion is great, i think i'll have to do some hunting for an eq+reverb pedals out there or maybe an amp modeller. btw, what particular eq do you use? the one w/ the size of a pack of cigars.

as for my strings i'll stick w/ my eric johnson semi-flats and maybe switch w/ rounds sometime. ingerneri, where did play here in the philippines? tnx

[mr. beaumont]

The little guy is the Korg Pandora--it's an all in one deal, reverb, EQ, amp modelers, some other effects. About the size of a box of cigarillos, the short plastic tip ones, a little bigger than cigarettes like I said before...

Most of the effects, the distortions in particular, sound pretty terrible. I've had it since I was 18--I bought it for late night practicing while I was in college.

I'm sure there's better items on the market, but I had it already, so I figured I try to make it work. It does what it does well enough--I actually use it as a clean boost (sometimes with a short delay) for my princeton with my Kay archtop, which has a very low output pickup, and like I mentioned earlier, I use it as an expanded EQ for the zt lunchbox, which has a speaker that can handle more bass than the amp is voiced for (nice or solo or duo with a singer gigs--more "thump")

If anything, again, It buys me consistency. But like I said, I'm sure there's better items on the market that do what it does, I'm just not familiar with all that is out there (I know of, but not much about, the Line 6 pod stuff, for example)

Good luck, hope you can find something you can work with.

[bebop kid]

nice man. i'll be working on my research right away! keep in touch! tnx!

[mongrel]

I just got a $99 used Line 6 POD 2.0 a couple of weeks ago and it is quite a gas to play with since there are 32 amp simulations and they can all be tweaked. Guitar into POD input to Boss DD-3 into my el Cheapo $20 Montgomery Wards keyboard amp with 15" speaker and I am currently in '65 blackface Deluxe, '52 Deluxe, and Mesa Boogie IIC clean heaven.

[woyvel]

Mr. B and Mongrel beat me to the Pandora and Pod. I'll add the Boss Micro BR as an option for a modeler.
Pros: It's also 4track recorder The Micro BR is the size of an iPod.
Cons:I don't like the 1/8" out jack, and it's more expensive than the other units.

I think these are better options than carrying an EQ pedal around.

[mongrel]

Originally Posted by woyvel

Mr. B and Mongrel beat me to the Pandora and Pod. I'll add the Boss Micro BR as an option for a modeler.
Pros: It's also 4track recorder The Micro BR is the size of an iPod.
Cons:I don't like the 1/8" out jack, and it's more expensive than the other units.

I think these are better options than carrying an EQ pedal around.

Besides the amp simulations, the POD has a fairly decent spring reverb simulation and an array of effects, some of which can be tuned to sound decent to very good like the tremelo and a rotary effect I like better than the Dunlop Roto-Vibe reissue I had. There's a drive knob that you can adjust for any amp sim from just a whisper to full bore melt-the-tubes. And a dwell setting that goes into deep synth space. So my Rat and Verbzilla are gathering dust. And bass, mid and treble knobs with which you can really fine-tune tone. It would be my desert island effect but I like it through the DD-3 to keep everything a touch liquid.

[randyc]

That's exactly what confuses me - the descriptions of these various effects do not equate to what artists, that "everyone" wants to imitate, used ! The only sense that I can make out of this is that a performer plays at his highest level when he (or she) is comfortable with equipment and confident that the audience is hearing what he is hearing.

And of course that is never the case in this day (as it was when some of us were playing small bars in the late sixties) ... the equipment and the venues pretty much guaranteed that everyone heard the same "sound". (Reverb, as an example, while pleasant enough at home, seemed to muddy the sound of a live performance. Or maybe I just never learned to use the effect properly.)

Drummers were restrained, not by choice but by the equipment of the time. When 90% of the clubs had a 30 to 40 watt PA system, loud drummers just didn't gig often. Most guitarists used 12 or 15 watt amplifiers and bassists used 50 watt amplifiers. Horn players were unamplified - only the vocalist got a microphone. Ahhhh - the good old days when no musicians had spinal problems.

When playing pop music in the seventies and eighties, I had to buy a Cry Baby wah-wah and a MXR phase shifter and moved up to a 50 watt amplifier from my Ampeg Reverberocket (until I figured out that a Champ would work just fine, with an SM-57 connected to the house PA). There were some tunes that the audience expected (demanded might be a better description) certain effects when soloing - like it or not. Pop music isn't an environment where an audience wants to hear improvisation of a top 40 tune.

Today, my only audience is my wife. My physical skills are hugely curtailed for many reasons and I can't compensate for that with special effects. I find myself playing only two setups: my cheap classical guitar and my L-5 through a Fender Champ.

I still own the Cry Baby and also an Echoplex (the Echoplex was purchased for vocals and never used for guitar once I stopped trying to imitate Chet Atkins and Merle Travis at around age 22, when I first heard Wes). Oh yeah, I also have an old red MXR compressor that I used with a stratocaster when covering country tunes. OK, so I DID use special effects and I have to recant as a purist But to obtain the sound of jazz originating from the golden era, guitar + cable + small amplifier is all that's required. In my opinion, of course.

Not to mention that kilowatts of on-stage power is just silly. One modern PA system and several small amplifiers can impair audience hearing just as efficiently as several stacks.

Cheers,
Randy

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by randyc

That's exactly what confuses me - the descriptions of these various effects do not equate to what artists, that "everyone" wants to imitate, used !

yeah, i usually ignore the whole "i want to sound like _______and ________and_________" because I usually feel like 9 times out of 10 the guitarists mentioned sound nothing alike.

I think the general idea of a classic jazz tone is a warm, midrangey tone without too much bass or treble. It seems like a lot of the great jazz tones were based on that idea, and then the individual amp, guitar, and player made the difference.

So rather than tell someone they need this and this, I just go for the advice of how to get a good clean slate and then it's up to the player to make it sound good.

[randyc]

Yes, the whole "tone" thing is about limitations of instrument, pickup, strings, amplifier and loudspeaker products of the day. With current technology, still we try to emulate 1948.

So how have we done in the past sixty years?

Pickup technology has been slightly enhanced due to advanced magnetic compositions (market-speak notwithstanding). Loudspeaker technology - ditto, but not by much - JBL is still the standard (my opinions about manufacturers that refuse to measure and produce specifications of their products are known here). Amplifiers? Nope - the requirement of a narrow frequency range - about 80 to 4000 Hz - didn't need improvement. The performance was always easy to obtain, even in 1935.

So what has improved? Maybe marketing and advertising.

G'night all -
Randy C

[RonD]

@ randyc.
Hey Randy,

I hear ya, on all counts.
I take it you're not a fan of solid State amps.
I wasn't until I played my Frankentele through a Henrickson. Definitely a "one trick pony" but, I kinda like the trick!

Cheers,
Ron

[IbanezAS100]

[quote=mr. beaumont;92231]Actually, they're terrible for jazz-- they get dirty really fast.

I use a Korg Pandora with the lunchbox for a little reverb/delay. I'm not using a 10th of what it actually offers--most of the effects are just not for me, but the reverbs and delays aren't bad, and it opens up the sound of the little box amp.

Well, another case of something looking good on paper but....anyway, thanks for the tip. Good job I've got a Pandora too...!

[Anandbhat]

The presonus tube-pre is a great little addition to warm up any solidstate that lacks 'tube warmth'.

[randyc]

Originally Posted by RonD

@ randyc.
Hey Randy,

I hear ya, on all counts.
I take it you're not a fan of solid State amps.
I wasn't until I played my Frankentele through a Henrickson. Definitely a "one trick pony" but, I kinda like the trick!

Cheers,
Ron

Ron, I do like many solid state amplifiers but I am a victim of my conditioning, LOL, not to mention that I acquired a lot of tube amplifiers back when they were cheap (and I rarely part with musical equipment). My favorite is my Sunn Beta Lead solid state but I have call a moving crew to use it, weighs about five pounds more than the Fender Twin !

Cheers,
Randy