Archtop Shopping Isn't Going Well...

[FrankBlack]

Disappointment is a brutal thing. After researching entry-level archtop guitars for a few weeks, I hit the road to put my hands on a few of them. I went to one of the major chain dealers and was massively disappointed by the total lack of choice in the archtop spectrum (one Gibson or one Ibanez). My local dealer had many more in stock and I spent some time with them (various Epiphone and Ibanez models). In total, I have to say I was disappointed. Most of them either didn't have a very nice sound unplugged or they were thick and stiff to play. I had a bit of a nice time with, of all things, an Ibanez AK100, which, oddly, was one of the cheaper guitars. I didn't write them all down as it seemed pointless, but they were all in the $400 to $600 range. The biggest disappointment to me was the Epiphone ES-175 reissue. I didn't like it on any level. They all felt... thick: thickish necks, thick coats of laminate, thick frets, etc. I am not saying the models are bad, I am just saying the guitars I tested were not thrilling. Could be a bad setup, strings, etc. Who knows? The last thing I touched at the store was a lovely Gretsch 5120. It felt, in my hands anyway, head and shoulders above the other guitars as far as quality. The sound unplugged was nice enough that I asked the clerk to plug it into a an old-school, clean amp. It was really nice. Granted, not the jazz guitar of my dreams, but with the tone rolled back on the neck pickup it sounded very nice, even with my prosecutable playing. I really like the Gretsch, but I want a jazz guitar. Yes, ANY guitar is a jazz guitar if you play jazz on it, but I want a more traditional archtop. At least I think I do. If I can't find something better, I think I will buy the Gretsch. Anyway, on to some questions...

1) Anyone share my opinion on the general quality of the Epiphone and Ibanez entry-level archtops? Not bad, but not really an inspiring instrument? Of these, do you have favorites? Maybe I missed one?

2) Am I the only one who needs the box to sing to me unplugged before I'll plug it in? I know that sounds a bit crazy as a plugged guitar can be light-years different based on many factors, but I really want something that can sing with its own voice (even if it isn't so loud). If it does that, then I'll plug it in.

3) Does anyone out there use a Gretsch for jazz?

4) I am now considering spending a bit more, perhaps, as these guitars just don't seem to do it for me. With one noteable exception, these will cost extra, but they are harder to test, so I'd like some real-life experience and input if possible:

- The Loar LH-650-VS - The Loar
- The Godin 5th Avenue CW Kingpin II - Godin Guitars
- The Agile Cool Cat Bigsby - Agile Cool Cat Nat Bigsby at RondoMusic.com

All seem to have good wood and such, but are also very different instruments. I think I am leaning toward the Godin, but would like any hands-on reactions and input.

Thanks for wading through this long-winded post.

[jbear]

I am very happy with the AK100. It was very nice when I received it, but after I had the nut worked on and a real set-up done it came to life in a big way. I have 12 chromes on it now. I love the neck and the PUP's are fantastic for the stuff I play with it (Metheny, Kreisberg, Rosenwinkel, etc.). The tone pots actually do something useful on this instrument. Anyway, I picked this up because I was so impressed with the AS103 semi and I figured...why not give it a try? I have not tried the others you've mentioned, but I have played many Gibson, Heritage, and Hofners. This guitar compares quite favorably. I have rarely picked up a guitar in a shop that was "ready to go" off the wall. That does make it very tough to pick them out, but...just the way it is. Most guitars (especially jazz boxes) need to be set before you can really tell what they are made of.
Regarding the "unplugged" sound significance. I used to feel the same way you do until I picked up a few unplugged "dogs" that absolutely sang when I plugged them in. Now...if I'm going to play it through an amp...that's the tone I go by. I certainly seem to be more drawn to an axe with a richer unplugged character...but I no longer rule it out if it doesn't swing without the voltage.

[mr. beaumont]

thumbs up for godin--smart woods and lots of old school vibe...IMHO, much higher quality than any asian made guitar in it's price bracket.

[bkdavidson]

I've owned an Epiphone Sheraton II and an Ibanez AK95. If you're going to be playing amplified, I personally think it's ok for the guitar to sound not-so-great unplugged. The pickup in a guitar will add a lot of character. Besides, if a guitar is too alive acoustically, that can translate to a lot of feedback when amplified. FWIW, if you're still considering the Ibanez or Epiphone, Give the Ibanez another try. I don't have any hands on experience with the Epiphone you cited, but I really like my Ibanez. I really am only selling it because I need new tires for my car.

[spiral]

1. Epi and Ibanez quality ho hum? Sort of. The Ibanez guitars are built really well, but the one i played didn't sound all that special ... not bad or good. The Epiphone Casino, Sheraton, and Emperor Regent are great. The Regent i didn't love acoustically until i heard it again from a forum member (see video below--granted, the tailpiece was swapped but it still has a great sound). The Emperor might be worth you seeking out. They are everywhere and pretty cheap.
2. Am i alone needing good acoustic sound first? You are not alone. I have been on a 2 year hunt for something that had a brilliant acoustic sound first and foremost. I think i finally settled recently--Martin CF-1--but spent a ton of $$ through trial and error. It is easy to change a pickup, not so easy to change woods, finish, and bracing.
3. Gretsch for jazz?I have a Gretsch G6040MCSS. It is a beautiful guitar, but the acoustic tone is a little dull (really thick finish and it has a routed/set-in pickup). Looks jazzy though. Plays dreamy. I highly recommend checking out the Gretsch G100. It is a laminate archtop, and sounds fantastic. Most of the other Gretsches are designed as electrics, but the G100 (and G400) are acoustics first.
4. Loar, Godin, Agile? Of the three i would check out the Loar first: nitro finish, floating pickup, very fat body (3 3/4"!!) ... seems like an amazing deal if the specs are all true. The Agile probably has too much hardware on the top to resonate that well, and personally i thought the Kingpin felt and sounded cheap. No one really talks about it, but i think the G100 is much better vs. Kingpin. Loar is probably the best out of what you listed though.

Where are you located?

Video from member "Shoome"

YouTube Video

[Archie]

I'm not really a jazz player, but I have a 6120 that I really like. Gretsch pickups sound a little thinner and brighter than Gibson-style humbuckers, but many jazz players use single coil pickups (P-90s, Strats or Teles) and get good, distinctive sounds out of them. If you like the Gretsch and it speaks to you, go with it and develop a sound of your own. p.s. I believe that Gretsch has humbuckers; if you like the way the guitar feels and plays, but want a different or more traditional dark jazz sound, you could easily swap the pickups for something like 57 Classics.

[SamBooka]

Dont have much time. I went through what you went through. No choice here so I had to buy of ebay. On paper, the Emperor Regent looked the best (the floating pickup was a plus only because I wanted to install a P90 and with the EmpReg you have a clean slate to work with.) They are so common that i dont mind cutting the top.

The thing to consider about the EmpReg is is it is a 17in body. The only other 17 I saw was an Aria (very nice guitar but no cutaway.. if that is ok with you, it is a fine instrument).

Fit and finish on the EmpReg is very nice. It does have the infamous plywood neckblock. My issue with (Edit: MY guitar) is it has a deadspot at D. Not a great acoustic tone (but more acoustic than an es175.. I "upgraded" to a 165 this year.. jury is still out)

Godins are nice guitars for the money and I WANT to encourage them but .. well... the feel cheap to me too.

The way I look at it all, I am not loosing any money on the 165 if I sell it. The EmpReg is hacked to pieces so no point in selling it (besides, it does grow on some of us). I have years (?) to search for the right guitar. a 4K$ guitar isnt in my range right now...so I will keep upgrading and outgrowing guitars (probably not in that order) and go where it takes me.

[spiral]

FWIW: there is an Aria FA-71 on eBay right now. I have been watching it for a month. It has been relisted 3 times because of 0 bids. Now the price is $250 with 0 bids, and 2 days to go. Might be worth checking out.

[SamBooka]

That is a hard to beat price. I never actually tried one. It was the FA-77 that I tried. I see there is a new Broadway model as well.

[ES125er]

Originally Posted by FrankBlack

3) Does anyone out there use a Gretsch for jazz?

Brad Shepik (Dave Douglas Tiny Bell Trio, Paul Motian EBBB, Pachora, Matt Dariau Paradox Trio, Joey Baron's Killer Joey...)

Anton Goudsmit (The Ploctones, Eric Vloeimans' Fugimundi...)

Oh, and Freddie Green (Count Basie Orchestra)!

[Norman931]

George Van Epps played a Gretsch 7-string electric hollowbody. I believe his was a custom, but Gretsch came out with a signature production model as well, in 6- and 7-string versions. Great jazz guitarist.

[mongrel]

Originally Posted by ES125er

Brad Shepik (Dave Douglas Tiny Bell Trio, Paul Motian EBBM, Pachora, Matt Dariau Paradox Trio, Joey Baron's Killer Joey...)

Anton Goudsmit (The Ploctones, Eric Vloeimans' Fugimundi...)

Oh, and Freddie Green (Count Basie Orchestra)!

#1 on Brad Shepik. He's got a CD out for a couple of years called "Drip". I heard a cut from it late one night on local public radio and thankfully the DJ extro'd it and a close-by used CD store had a copy. Listen to it frequently in the car. I love his playing and tone. His Gretsch looks like an old Country Gentlemen but I could well be wrong.

I just picked up an older Epiphone Howard Roberts (the kind w/ the floating pickup and oval sound hole). Very cool guitars. This one is well made, plays like a dream, and sound very good (although 'unique'). I think they and their Gibson brothers fly under the radar a bit. Just offering another take, for whatever it is worth.

Also, Larry Koonse plays a Gretsch, if I am not mistaken.

[frogeye]

You may want check out one of the Hofner Contemporary Archtops. These are Asian made versions of their more expensive German-made siblings. They go for 600-700 bucks at the dealer from what I remember. There is a hardly used HOFNER HCT-J17 (item number:160451282318) up for bid (starts at $449.99) on eBay that looks quite nice. Good Luck!

[RoyaleT]

Originally Posted by spiral

FWIW: there is an Aria FA-71 on eBay right now. I have been watching it for a month. It has been relisted 3 times because of 0 bids. Now the price is $250 with 0 bids, and 2 days to go. Might be worth checking out.

An FA71 for under $300 is unbelieveable! If i didn't own one I'd be all over that. Great buy even at the common $500 range.

[mongrel]

The Aria is a good guitar and great for that price. Another goodie is the Cort Yorktown, the older model prior to the Larry Coryell series. The last one I played a couple of years ago in a chain store was well used and I didn't even plug it in to have to hear how good it resonated. If I had a spare $500 in my pocket, I would have walked out with it and I would have picked it quickly over the Epi Joe Pass I had just bought.

[HotClubBrampton]

I've had them all.
Epiphone Joe Pass : good, some annoying rattling
Epiphone Emperor Regent : great, good value, nice classic swing sound
Ibanez AF125 : excellent!
Gibson ES-175 : expensive, controversial
Godin 5th Ave: cool looking, couldn't bound with it

finally I have settled on Gretsch guitars. My country club is the best of all worlds. I play jazz, swing, gypsy jazz, rock and blues on it.

Who plays Jazz on Gretsch ?

Freddie Green
http://www.freddiegreen.org/instruments/guitars.html

Django Reinhardt
During his infamous USA trip. Check this out: http://www.paulvernonchester.com/django&HarryVolpe.htm

Those two guys are good enough on my book for jazz credibility....

The G5120 is a great guitar, you won't go wrong with it. The look might not be classic jazz if u get the orange one, but there is a black and also a sunburst version.

The G100 is also great, and it looks just like the one Django played...!

Finally, I would suggest buying what sounds good to you, don't go brand shopping or else you won't be satisfied until getting a vintage gibson ES 125 or L5.
Btw, check those Loars and Korean D'Angelicos, haven't played one but sure look great.

Good luck

[Uli]

I wouldn't worry too much if you did not get the Wow-effect on first trial. It's much worse to get it too often and end up with a house full of guitars and a wife in permanent state of suspicion.

Re. Ibanez etc. It's a bit of a bore indeed to see all the shops being limited to the usual offers. Personally, I think Ibanez are good value for money. It's just the character that's missing.

[shoome]

Hey there,
for recommendations I can recommend 2 specific guitars:

1st one would be, as already mentioned by many others here, an Epiphone Emperor Regent. It's gosh darn cheap and much guitar for the buck. If you like classical swing sound you will like it. Sound is always a subjective topic, but i personally love the sound of my EmpReg acoustically (see the above video posted by spiral, btw. thanks for the kind words spiral The recording was done using only one condenser about 2 foot away from the 12th fret and adding a little reverb, no big editing etc.)

The 2nd one would be the already mentioned Höfner HCT-J17. I plaied them at the 'Musikmesse Frankfurt' and they were really really nice. They are, what most people don't know, not fully produced in china. They only produce the parts for the guitar there, but the guitar itself is put together in germany. (And I can assure you, that they do a good job there, since a play a Höfner myself )

In addition I can always second what Mr. B said, since the Godin's are really something to look at first, before thinking about any asian-axe and I think he is one of the most experienced guys in here and really knows what he's talking about.

All in all you should not wait to find THE one guitar, since you will most likely not stick with it for a life long and will find something one axe has, that yours doesnt
And the most important thing in my opinion is that there are no rules (like "Gretsch is no Jazz-Guitar") or anything... if YOU like the sound then go ahead, cause thats what matters!

[otillio]

Set up the neck pickup on a "country gent" and it'll sing like an angel!
Just listen to Van Epps; with the exception of a 7-string Epi early in his career, he only played Gretsch.

Good deals to be had in Red Bank,nj on D'Angelico guitars! Just bought 17" model with floating pu-decent accoustically.

[derek]

Frank,

I kept reading the word "thick" in your post. Archtops are going to be thicker, and traditionally we do not see the slim necks on them, with a few exceptions. Imo, all the guitars you listed have necks that are too slim for me. All entry level guitars have thick, goopy finishes in my experience.

There is no "wow factor" in entry level guitars imo. Unless you say wow at a decent, playable guitar for $300, then okay, maybe some wow. They all sound dead to me acoustically because they are not acoustics, they are electrics that happen to be hollow. Have you ever heard an all laminate flat top that you really enjoyed the tone of? I have not.

The one exception is the Sadowsky Jim Hall, a guitar based on the DA Jazzline (175 is it's inspiration), however that guitar is over $4k. So maybe you are expecting too much for a $500 level guitar? I know you don't want to drop the cash, but check out Gibsons, Eastmans, and any other higher end models you can get your hands on to give you more of an idea about how these entry level ones qualify.

With Gretsch, unless you are buying vintage, they are different animals than what the above listed guys played. You can get the higher end models, but I believe all are made in either Korea or Japan these days, not your daddy's Gretsch. YMMV

[SamBooka]

Originally Posted by shoome

Hey there,
for recommendations I can recommend 2 specific guitars:

All in all you should not wait to find THE one guitar, since you will most likely not stick with it for a life long and will find something one axe has, that yours doesnt
And the most important thing in my opinion is that there are no rules (like "Gretsch is no Jazz-Guitar") or anything... if YOU like the sound then go ahead, cause thats what matters!

I agree

I saw this today ... I would still take an EmpReg over this guy but nice to have a choice

Eastwood Guitars: Doral

[Senior]

I went through the long search for a hollow body Jazz guitar and ended up with a Ibanez AF-125. Super nice tone, fast neck, easy to play but unplugged, not very impressive at all. When I play unplugged, I use a Guild F-20 or ( my favorite accoustic ) a Alhambra 6. All are excellant Jazz and Blues guitars.

[mongrel]

Originally Posted by SamBooka

I agree

I saw this today ... I would still take an EmpReg over this guy but nice to have a choice

Eastwood Guitars: Doral

I saw a couple of Regents on Ebay today that could be bought under $500. I've got a sudden itch to get one and put a Lollar archtop Charlie Christian in it.

[spiral]

Since we lost the OP: Someone please buy that FA-71. 19 hours left and it is still at 0 bids. $200 + $50 shipping!!

[jbear]

Plug in and play...the last thing I'd ever consider in a guitar is who else plays one. If I like the feel and the tone...that's IT!

[FrankBlack]

I thank everyone for their thoughtful and heartfelt input. I am girding my loins and preparing for phase two of the guitar quest. Fortunately, my wife is not only supportive, but downright adamant that I buy a guitar. She wouldn't care what I got at this point, she just wants me to play again. The additional good news is that I may have a line on a good, used Hofner H5, and a local shop (localish) has a few higher-end boxes to try. All that and I'm off next week. All good. I'll post what I get in case anyone is interested. Again, I greatly appreciate the input. It is very helpful.

[brad4d8]

I recently played a Loar flattop, and I have a Loar mandolin. If their archtop is as good as those, it's worth trying out.
Brad

[cosmic gumbo]

Archtops are a misunderstood breed. Even though they look like part of the violin family, they aren't. In general, archtops don't have a pretty, singing acoustic tone, and were designed more as a rhythm instrument. The range of dynamics and volume are quite reduced compared to a spanish style nylon or steel string guitar, but amplified, the archtop defines the standard jazz guitar sound.

[shoome]

yeah, but even though they're not made for that purpose, sometimes someone is, at least I am, too lazy to plug in or want to sit in the living room playing without losing the feel of an archtop guitar.
In addition I really love to get an acoustic signal from a mic in front of my guitar in addition to it's electric signal for recording purposes.
Therefore I think the acoustic sound of an archtop can be important and shouldn't be left aside (i know you didn't say that, i just wanna mention ) when deciding to buy one if you're not gonna play it plugged in all the time.