Fitting ebony tailpiece

philipmgibson · #1 06-28-2010, 07:18 AM

I've got an Epiphone Emporer Regent and would like to replace the standard tailpiece with an inlaid ebony one I hve. Will it simply be a case of unscrewing the existing tailpiece, re-fitting the strap button looping the new tailpiece to the button and re-stringing, or should I perhaps upgrade the strap button to something more substantial. I'll still be using flatwound 12's same as before. Also will a change of tailpiece affect playabilty in any way? I've read that tailpieces affect tension but I'm not sure I'm convinced about that. As far as I can see a string of a given guage at a given pitch will exert the same tension irrespective of what's on the other side of the bridge.

billkath · #2 06-28-2010, 07:40 AM

I've wondered about this as well-not in the fitting, but in "what does one do with the string ground that is soldered to the original metal tailpiece".
If anyone knows-shout back.

SamBooka · #3 06-28-2010, 08:54 AM

I bet it would be fine. Bob Benedettos has a small piece of inlay where the fastener meets the the edge of the top. EmpRegs have bound tops.. I would imagine it would be fine.

shoome · #4 06-28-2010, 09:04 AM

Hey there

I actually did this with my Epiphone Emperor Regent. I replaced the stock tailpiece with a Benedetto ebony tailpiece. The fitting is not that big of a problem, but if you want to play it somewhat louder you'll have to look at something to fill in the holes that are there from unscrewing the old tailpiece.

I personally use my Emperor only for acoustic playing and therefore unscrewed the fingerrest and pickup too. Before I did that, to answer billkaths question, I tried playing it electrically and had no big problems leaving the strings ungrounded. If you find your guitar making noises because of this I only know one possibilty to get rid of it while having an ebony-only tailpiece: Take a piece of wire, wind it around your strings (going over the first, below the 2nd, over the 3rd and so on, so it touches all strings) and connect to either your playing arm (sounds funny, but I actually know a sitar and a jazz-guitar playing doing this;-)) or the grounding cable that was connected to the stock-tailpiece.

The mounting it self is very easy as you already said and that strap button thing works quiet well if you stay at 12's. To get to the part with tailpieces effecting string tension... I'll try to explain: String tension depends on the length of the string, its mass, and the pitch (frequency) of its first harmonic mode of motion. When you tune a string to a given pitch, you are establishing the tension for that string between the nut and the bridge saddle... the tension of that string is the same in the "afterlength" (i.e. the length of string between the bridge saddle and the tailpiece). What changes is the pitch or frequency. So, other things being equal, a shorter string afterlength will have a different pitch, but the tension will be the same. The tension is constant through the entire length of the string... This is an information from a mandolin's luthier. I hope this helps you.
In addition to the "length"/"afterlength"-thing, some tailpieces provide different angles on the bridge saddle resulting in more/less down-pressure to the top, which provides (imho not that big of a difference, but a recognizable one) a difference in volume.

I personally mainly did it because of the aesthetic note an ebony tailpiece provides to a guitar and since my new main-guitar (maybe post a review sometime over it

) has a fake-ebony tailpiece (metal tailpiece with ebony overlay) I wanted my Epiphone to look at least a little like it

I can post some pictures if you like...

Hope I could help you a little,
cheers

billkath · #5 06-28-2010, 09:17 AM

Thanks, Shoome-yes please-lots of pictures!!
By the way-what's the feeling like over there in Germany after thrashing England yeterday?

philipmgibson · #6 06-28-2010, 12:08 PM

Thanks for the reply I understand better now that varying the length/angle behind the bridge may affect the downforce on the bridge rather than string tension and how this could impact tone/volume. If your opnion is that the strap button is sufficient to support a set of flatwound 12's. I think I might go ahead with the mod. Worst case scenario I'll get out my old 70's japanese ES175 copy which is no hardship at all. Thanks again,
Phil.
P.S. I'm Scottish so thanks for thrashing the English as well ;-)

shoome · #7 06-28-2010, 12:51 PM

pictures are coming tonight or tomorrow morning, don't know when I'll be able to make some, cause I'm one of the last persons on this planet that's not owning a digital camera

... but maybe I'll record a video with my webcam, when I'm at home.

Oh, it's a great feeling, thanks

but to be fair... it should have been 4:2... referee was kinda blind I think

@philip: I had 11's on mine and mounted the tailpiece to the strap-button itself and not, like Benedetto says, screwing it out a little bit and mounting the strap of the tailpiece to the screw. Worked perfectly. But I couldn't attach my guitar strap anymore, since there was this tailpiece strap now... So what i did was the thing Benedetto said but not having had in mind that i changed to 14's and after a month or so, the screw made its way .5-1cm to the top... not that great

I got it fixed now... but let me tell you not take thicker strings, when you mount your tailpiece to the screw instead of the button...

philipmgibson · #8 06-28-2010, 01:03 PM

I'd thought about the screw mounting but dismissed the idea due to the possibility of the thread on th screw cutting through the mounting. If/when I go ahead I'll post up some pics

shoome · #9 06-28-2010, 01:38 PM

okay... I just got home earlier than I thought and I picked a camera of a friend and made so quick picks and a little video with my webcam(watch in hd). As I already said, I dont play it that much anymore, only for unplugged things.

(i hope the pics aren't too big)

kind of unused to 14's strings:

YouTube Video

billkath · #10 06-28-2010, 01:45 PM

Fantastic!!!!

SamBooka · #11 06-28-2010, 01:58 PM

Very nice.. I ran my EmpReg for quite a while without any pickup at all.
I actually love the guitar but has a couple of issues that I havent been able to fix. Otherwise I would have been very happy to keep only one guitar

philipmgibson · #12 06-28-2010, 05:12 PM

The regent looks so classy with the tailpiece and without the pickguard, some classy pickin' too. Thanks for taking the time out I really appreciate it.

philipmgibson · #13 06-28-2010, 10:15 PM

Decided to go ahead, so I fished the tailpiece and a packet of D'addario chrome 12's from the cupboard.
Removed the strings and tailpiece from the old Epi and gave it a clean and refitted the strap button.
A quick examination of the new tailpiece revealed a problem: the string holes are large, large enough to easily allow the ball end of the string to pass through. Must be designed to string up from the front, ball end goes through the hole then sits behindthe slot at the front of the hole.
Problem number two arises only two of the strings (the E & B) are thin enough to pass through the slots.
The best part of an hour spent carefully carving the slots to fit with a scalpel rectified this.
Fit the strings... looking good, off to the other room to get a pitch to tune up to... twang twang, twist twist, you know the drill,twang twang, twist twist catastrophic snap, flailing strings and tailpiece, THe floating bridge is badly named, it doesn't float, it falls rapidly onto the floor.
The nylon cord formerly snugly wrapped around the strap button securing my pretty little tailpiece is in two pieces.
DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO REPLACE THIS?

Jared Burrows · #14 06-29-2010, 01:28 AM

I'm not sure what tailpiece you were using or where it came from, but the tail adjuster break you describe is VERY unusual in my experience (have built about 15 archtops). That nylon is very tough stuff normally and would easily withstand string tension. There must have been a flaw in the nylon somewhere. You can buy replacements at www.stewmac.com Look for 'benedetto tailpiece fastener'. These are made with stranded stainless steel and are not likely to break under any normal conditions.

shoome · #15 06-29-2010, 03:46 AM

Wow! I find this really unusual too... I used the Benedetto Tailpiece + Tailpiece-Fastener from stewmac, as Mr. Burrows mentioned and I'm using 14's for quiet a while now. I can recommend both!

philipmgibson · #16 06-30-2010, 12:23 PM

Thank you all so much for all your help.

SamBooka · #17 06-30-2010, 02:08 PM

You know.. the ebony TP looks VERY nice with an ebony bridge from StewMac as well

82Benedetto · #18 06-30-2010, 02:08 PM

Spectacular playing, Shoome. You make that regent sound like a Benedetto.

philipmgibson · #19 07-02-2010, 11:08 AM

New part arrived today, fitted it, tuning was a little unstable for a while but seems OK now. The guitar is a little quieter and the tone is mellowed somewhat, definately less downward pressure on the bridge. Once again guys thanks for the help and support, couldn't have done it without you.

TommyD · #20 07-04-2010, 11:32 AM

I'm playing a Gibson ES 165 (from Gibson's Custom Shop), and while it's a good looking guitar, it has the typical ES 175 problem of the note you're playing setting other harmonic notes ringing. A big pain, as all 175 players know.
I think I've discovered the source, or at least a big part of it - the tailpiece. When I force a soft bolster (like a dry sponge) under the tailpiece, the harmonics problem is nearly eliminated.
So I've thought about replacing the ugly Gibson tailpiece with a wooden one. Only trouble is, doing it will probably reduce the re-sale value of the guitar tremendously.
In thinking about the 175 problem, it occurs to me that other Gibson guitars don't have this problem. Like the Tal Farlow, the L-5, etc. I'm betting that it's the interior bracing layout. You'd think that after all these years, Gibson would do a little re-design on the 175! No wonder they're having financial difficulties!

tommy/

SamBooka · #21 07-04-2010, 12:38 PM

Hi Tommy,
I have a 165 as well. Using a piece of foam as well. The guitar changed (for the better) when I put an ebony bridge in place of the TOM.

Dont understand how the internal bracing would affect the dead string lenght resonating. Thoughts?

Mine is a 96, so not Custom Shop (that I am aware of).

I am reasonably certain that you could replace the tailpiece without affecting the value. Just keep the old bridge (in a bag.. in the case.. like I did with the original TOM).

Let me know how it turns out.

Drew

TommyD · #22 07-04-2010, 03:27 PM

Sam:
I'd LOVE to see a couple of photos of your modifications! BTW, you said that you keep a piece of foam under the tailpiece. Do you still have to keep it there despite having replaced the metal TP? and I wonder what kind of bridge you got and whether it changed anything tone-wise or resonation-problem-wise?

I was thinking that I would try to remove the pin in the hinge between the TP and the end-plate (that holds the strap button and might provide a ground for the electrics), and incorporating the hinge into the new wood TP. That would entail destroying the TP itself though - perhaps cutting off a section that contains the TP hinge, drilling screw holes in it and screwing it under the wooden TP out of sight. It could even be chamfered into the bottom of the wooden tailpiece so as not to make the new TP look clumsy and thick. That way it could hold the new wooden TP in place. What do you think?
tommy/

SamBooka · #23 07-04-2010, 03:58 PM

I still have the original TP on mine.
If you are going to destroy anything get a 20$ TP off ebay and play with that.

I will see if I have some pics when I get home.