Small Tube Amp reccomendations...

mr. beaumont · #1 06-22-2010, 07:52 PM

So I've decided I want a small tube amp, preferably vintage, preferably 5-10 watts (maximum), to couple with my late 50's Kay archtop, mostly for home use, recording, and the occasional jam with unamplified horns/piano/bass and no drummer (or a terry clarke wannabe)

There's a lot out there--so I'm looking for your personal preferences...everyone knows about fender champs and gibson skylarks--what have you found cool jazz tones thru? Any sleepers/ off the beaten path good values out there? There's a lot of good vintage shops here in Chicago, but going in with a "wish-list" of stuff to try out could make this even more fun.

SamBooka · #2 06-22-2010, 08:08 PM

I am pretty hard core fender... but actually play my Traynor YGM4 more.
4X8 might be a bit big.. there is a 1X12 that is more managable (ygm3)
They actually reissued the ygm3 a couple of years ago. My Bro-n-law has one and wont stop raving about it (he has had it for a year now).
Figure you should be able to find one for about 1/2 the price of a SF PrincetonRev.

msr13 · #3 06-22-2010, 08:17 PM

I'm a big fan of Headstrong. They make a Lil' King Jr. exclusively for Soloway Guitars (although, Wayne, could build you one, I am sure). Jim Soloway plays jazz exclusively and raves about the Jr. It is 8 watts and sounds gorgeous. I have a regular Lil' King, which is 12 watts and love it. Here is Jim playing one of his guitars through it.

YouTube Video

mr. beaumont · #4 06-22-2010, 08:39 PM

thanks for the info guys.

matt, although i was looking vintage (as i feel that as long as you don't go with the most "popular" choice you can get SERIOUS bang for the buck) I'll look into the headstrongs--you're definitely not the first I've heard to give them a good review.

msr13 · #5 06-22-2010, 08:57 PM

Wayne got his start deconstructing vintage Princetons. The guy knows his stuff, and is really happy to spend time talking with you about what you want and like.

Having said that, what vintage amps have you been looking at? I love small, but lush sounding amps, and the old blackface Princetons... Oh boy! I tied a little 50s Gibson the other day that was really cool sounding. Not sure what model it was, though.

CrazyChester · #6 06-22-2010, 11:24 PM

I've been using a 66 Bandmaster in a combo cab with one twelve. (a Jensen Neo) I use it with a Boss FR-1 Reverb pedal. That and a Kauer Hollow body guitar. Great sound, with plenty of headroom for a 5 piece straight ahead Jazz combo.

randyc · #7 06-22-2010, 11:55 PM

There are only two considerations, really: single-ended or conventional push-pull output stage configuration. Preceding circuits are similar - actually almost identical, ignoring special effect provisions. There are fans - almost religiously motivated - of both. The difference between the two would be tediously uninteresting to the majority of viewers but it's possible to illustrate the differences easily, using the Fender "standards" of low-power amplifiers:

A single-ended output configuration is a "Champ"

A push-pull output configuration is a "Princeton"

The two amplifiers, even adjusted well below their compression (and distortion) levels have different tonal characteristics. Lots of reasons for this, I've posted several discussions describing how push-pull amplifiers suppress certain harmonics while single-ended amplifiers do not ... Single-ended amplifiers are less expensive and don't provide the harmonic suppression that most vacuum tube amplifiers provide (95% of all vacuum tube amplifiers are "push-pull" output stages).

For some time I have considered designing a small amplifier - in the power range Mr. Beaumont described as desirable - but in "push-pull" configuration (unlike the "Champ"), using inexpensive, power-efficient vacuum tubes. The musical objective would be to replicate the tonal characteristics of larger amplifiers without the commensurate increase in cost and weight (and obviously lacking in loudness). A "line output" might be a desirable feature, maybe an effects loop ... just thinking out loud.

In past posts, I've suggested that forum members might collectively perform a project like this one. Recognizing that most do not have metalworking machinery, design experience, electronic test equipment and other barriers that might prevent a "design-to-finished-product" goal, it may be possible to assign certain design tasks to various members (no special equipment requirements) and actually produce an amplifier to a set of pre-determined design goals.

(Recall that these amplifiers, boutique and otherwise, are copies of copies of copies - vacuum tube amplifiers are primitive examples of electronic design albeit desirable ones, for many of us. The skills involved are not sophisticated - simple algebra and common sense gets one through most of the vacuum tube amplifier design process. Download the free book if you're interested in the history and design process of these products. I'll post it again soon ... still tinkering with the verbiage.)

In other words, with some design input and with guidance/management, well ... starting to get the idea? Documenting the various steps of making a small amplifier; it's not difficult. Manufacturers of musical equipment would have us believe otherwise, LOL. A forum project - sort of similar to the product evaluations that we've done recently. The exercise could be "subsidized" by free labor and equipment capacity. Think about shared cost effectiveness, the ability of members' capability to make parts of the amplifier. Even if the project did not progress to conclusion, an interesting and entertaining learning experience would be documented.

So ... health permitting, I'm willing to manage the project, guide voluntary participants in individual tasks, evaluate and correct designs of the various stages and produce whatever hardware and woodworking is required. The end result would be that a single member possesses the amplifier and the obvious questions might be "who pays" and "how much" ?

If we assume that our labor is "free" then materials and shipping are the only cost. If there is interest in the project then I can underwrite it financially. The "owner" of the completed amplifier can be determined by various means by the participants but would only be required to pay for materials.

My motivations are simple: education, education ... let me know what you think.

Cheers,
randyc

gpmedium · #8 06-23-2010, 10:48 AM

I would be interested in doing such a project.

I'm an electronic technician with soldering skills.

mr. beaumont · #9 06-23-2010, 10:58 AM

randy, i have no real skills to bring to the table for such a project, but it's a very cool idea.

frogeye · #10 06-23-2010, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

thanks for the info guys.

matt, although i was looking vintage (as i feel that as long as you don't go with the most "popular" choice you can get SERIOUS bang for the buck) I'll look into the headstrongs--you're definitely not the first I've heard to give them a good review.

Hi, not claiming to be an expert but having played a few of the suspects here are my 2 cents. If you looking for decent clean sound with the archtop I would initially look at buying a vintage fender champ. There are plentiful and depending on the year of manufacturing they are reasonably priced. From what I remember Billm at billmaudioDOTcom offers a mod kit in case that you end up liking the amp and want to take it to new levels. Yet the small speaker won't give you any decent bottom end tone so an external cabinet with a 10" or 12" speaker would do wonders for that but chew up $$$. In regards to other amps I suggest looking at vintage Epiphone amps although they typivcally don't have a lot of clean headroom. They come up on eBay here and there and are reasonably priced. If you like cranking the tubes to some serious Chicago Blues sounds check out some of the mid sixties small Univox amps like U45B or a 202R. They clock in around 12-15 watt output from what I recall so they maybe on the loud side but boy, they crank some serious blues tone.

Personally I own a small tube amp for practicing distortion sounds at home and I went with a Crate V58 (play one before you frown...). This is one serious distortion machine at 5 watts so it may not be the right companion for your hollowbody guitar. However, I got mine NOS on eBay for 139 bucks which I consider to be a steal. Just checked, they are still available.

That all said and done I bought myself a 15W Fender Blues Junior amp that I use in the situations that you describe in your post and it gives me a great jazz sound for my taste. Contrary to common belief this amp actually has plenty of clean headroom and using the master volume control it allows me to control the volume down to any level required. And you have the flexibility to put up with a drummer in case that one shows up at the jam.

Good Luck.

frogeye · #11 06-23-2010, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msr13

I'm a big fan of Headstrong. They make a Lil' King Jr. exclusively for Soloway Guitars (although, Wayne, could build you one, I am sure). Jim Soloway plays jazz exclusively and raves about the Jr. It is 8 watts and sounds gorgeous. I have a regular Lil' King, which is 12 watts and love it. Here is Jim playing one of his guitars through it.

YouTube Video

I'm very impressed with the beautiful tone in this video. That said, I have this late 70's Fender silver face Pro Reverb sitting around that I bought brand new back in the days (yeah, the one with the infamous pull push master volume) which I consider to be very capable in producing that sound at most any volume level. Beside the size and weight factor I'm just wondering why anybody would go with a 8 Watt amp when I can buy a used pro-reverb for some 500-700 bucks on the usual sites. Not trying to be overly critical here, just wanted to offer a different view point and get your thoughts.

Thanks,

Boris

derek · #12 06-23-2010, 01:36 PM

Today's trend is toward smaller amps, so there are just a ton of options available. Mostly because the majority of players never leave the bedroom/house, so a Twin is a bit of overkill. Vintage models are pretty limited, as this was not the trend in those days.

The other reason is, sound reinforcement is much better and more prevalent these days. We don't need a 100 watt Marshall stack to be heard in the back anymore. Consequently, we see power cut switches, and lots of builders who are making everything from 1/2 watt amps on up, with lots of stops between 1/2 and 12 watts.

Here is a link of a list of amps that are under 15.

Low wattage guitar amplifiers, amps 1, 2,3, 5, 6, 7 , 10 watts.

randyc · #13 06-23-2010, 01:51 PM

Got a PM from Goshawk noting that he didn't want to interrupt Mr. Beaumont's message - that's a good idea. I'll start another thread to see if there's sufficient interest to make a forum amplifier practical.

gpmedium, you're an obvious selection, with your technician's skills, goshawk as well, so if we can get a few more committed individuals, this could happen.

frogeye · #14 06-23-2010, 02:45 PM

Thanks Derek. I followed the link and I am impressed by the variety of amps out there. So far I had been thinking of small tube amps as being a way to get warm tube distortion at low levels (Hence the Crate V58 in my house) and not so much clean sounds. Looks much like that I will need to change my position on that. Best, Boris.

derek · #15 06-23-2010, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frogeye

Thanks Derek. I followed the link and I am impressed by the variety of amps out there. So far I had been thinking of small tube amps as being a way to get warm tube distortion at low levels (Hence the Crate V58 in my house) and not so much clean sounds. Looks much like that I will need to change my position on that. Best, Boris.

No problem, that's what your membership fee pays for, my time to search the net for stuff.

medblues · #16 06-23-2010, 06:41 PM

I agree with frogeye that Blues Jr matches mr. beaumont's expectations well. BillM writes that he custom modded several Blues Jr amps being used by professional jazz players. I have one that is not specially modded for jazz. I like the clean tones I am getting and hope that the bass will be bigger with a capacitor mod.

frogeye · #17 06-23-2010, 07:16 PM

Now we are talking.... BillM modded my Blues JR and it now sounds even better than before. However, be careful and don't go overboard with the mods as it is tempting to do.

For more bass you may want to consider the output transformer mod and a different speaker. Eminence Swam Thang is a speaker that I ended up liking for that same reason. Bill's favorite is the Eminence Cannabis Rex (terrible name...). Both models have significantly stronger low end response than the stock speaker.

mattymel · #18 06-23-2010, 09:30 PM

i have a headstrong lil king and i think it is a great little amp. def NOT a one trick pony either. put the right speaker in that thing and it could easily double for a blues rock gig. then again, its not the cheapest amp in the world.

if you play a few different SF princeton reverbs, you can find a great sounding amp for around $700. the thing about the princeton reverb circuit is it is probably the darkest sounding fender amp ever designed. SFs tend to be a little brighter of course. i tried a few different speakers in my headstrong LK until ended up with one that was bright enough for me (weber 10A150T). and i like DARK sounds. jim hall is pretty much my fave jazz sound. i cant say the princeton nails that, but it gets close.

if i had the chance i would love to try out a gibson GA50 to see how much of JH's old sound comes from that thing.

one caution, i would say that any amp under 12 watts i have ever played doesnt have the headroom you need for playing traditional type jazz sounds at more than a bedroom level. a champ is good for recording and maybe guitar lessons. i bought one back in the day and tried it on a gig that night... it was a bad scene. didnt sound bad, but breakin up like crazy.

but i think you will find low watt tube amps are where it is at for da Jazz. a vintage BF princeton reverb is a real treat to play through if you ever get the chance. but, it might also make you wish you hadnt ever heard that sound....be warned.

for me, the headstrong is more versatile than a BF, but doesnt have the warmth. but then again everytime i see a good BF PR its going for $1700+ or so. good luck.

msr13 · #19 06-23-2010, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frogeye

I'm very impressed with the beautiful tone in this video. That said, I have this late 70's Fender silver face Pro Reverb sitting around that I bought brand new back in the days (yeah, the one with the infamous pull push master volume) which I consider to be very capable in producing that sound at most any volume level. Beside the size and weight factor I'm just wondering why anybody would go with a 8 Watt amp when I can buy a used pro-reverb for some 500-700 bucks on the usual sites. Not trying to be overly critical here, just wanted to offer a different view point and get your thoughts.

Thanks,

Boris

You raise some great points. There are two sides to my response. The first is tone. I had a very distinct sound I was looking for. I went through a silver face Princeton, a DRRI, a Blues Jr., a Dr. Z Maz Sr., a Maz Jr.,and I just couldn't get the sound I wanted (deep, warm, room filling) at a volume that worked for my house and the small groups I wanted to play with. The Princetons sounded thin at low volumes to me. The Maz Sr. and Jr. were way too loud. The DRRI was great, and too loud. The Blues Jr. Wouldn't get as warm as I wanted without getting muddy. Which brings up my second point, volume. I don't like loud, while at the same time, I do like getting to the sweet spot of an amp. With the tube amps, that seemed to me, at least, to be between 3-7 on the volume knob. With the exception of the Princeton, I couldn't do that in my house. I also wanted the amp to have plenty of headroom, with the low wattage.

There are a lot of low watt tube amps these days that do that, as evidenced by Derek's post. And, if one can afford it, and doesn't have the techno savvy that some folks on this board have, then these small builders are great options since they have the ability to help you translate your specific goals into what you want.

The trick is to go to the right builder to match your goal. If you like that Blackface sound, Headstrong, among many others, is a good option. If that isn't what you are looking for, than don't go to them. They seem to specialize.

Anyway, pardon my rambling response. Just my two cents.

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #20 06-24-2010, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frogeye

Bill's favorite is the Eminence Cannabis Rex (terrible name...)

Heh, I love the name. You get to say the speaker is smokin' etc...!

I only wish it didn't say "Cannabis" right on the speaker. Imagine crossing into the US from BC, the pot capital of Canada.

CrazyChester · #21 06-24-2010, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Heh, I love the name. You get to say the speaker is smokin' etc...!

I only wish it didn't say "Cannabis" right on the speaker. Imagine crossing into the US from BC, the pot capital of Canada.

Is that the speaker that has a cone made out of hemp fiber.

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #22 06-24-2010, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyChester

Is that the speaker that has a cone made out of hemp fiber.

That's right. 12". Eminence's 10" Hemp cone is the "Lil' Bud(dy)"

frogeye · #23 06-24-2010, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Heh, I love the name. You get to say the speaker is smokin' etc...!

I only wish it didn't say "Cannabis" right on the speaker. Imagine crossing into the US from BC, the pot capital of Canada.

Yep, that's why I only put 2 of them in my SF Pro Reverb. The amp is so heavy that I won't be tempted to cross any border except maybe the one between New Jersey and NYC...

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #24 06-24-2010, 10:32 AM

"So yer a musician, boy? Let's take a look see back of this here amplee-fier. *Whistles* Now I've seen everything!"

mr. beaumont · #25 06-24-2010, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattymel

one caution, i would say that any amp under 12 watts i have ever played doesnt have the headroom you need for playing traditional type jazz sounds at more than a bedroom level.

It should be enough for what I want to do--practice, record, and jam with a piano player.

people play too damn loud, anyway.

thanks for the responses again, all, I've got a lot of food for thought.

(oh, and btw, I have a blues junior, fine amp, but much bigger and louder than what I'm looking for in this thread)

CrazyChester · #26 06-24-2010, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyChester

Is that the speaker that has a cone made out of hemp fiber.

Not a very good choice of material for a musician's speaker. Come back from a break and find little pieces of your speaker missing and illegal smiles on your bandmates faces. No thanks.

GuyB · #27 06-24-2010, 12:16 PM

You could take a serious look at the Traynor amps. There is this class A 15W (YCV20WR) at :

http://www.traynoramps.com/products....&cat=63&type=3

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #28 06-24-2010, 12:30 PM

Mr B: I asked over on TDPRI -- do you still have that Redstone cabinet? If you use an external cabinet that would fill out the bass of the Champ/VibroChamp.

mr. beaumont · #29 06-24-2010, 01:17 PM

oh, yes--I love that cab.

frogeye · #30 06-25-2010, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It should be enough for what I want to do--practice, record, and jam with a piano player.

people play too damn loud, anyway.

thanks for the responses again, all, I've got a lot of food for thought.

(oh, and btw, I have a blues junior, fine amp, but much bigger and louder than what I'm looking for in this thread)

I am sorry for posting all the BJr "blah" earlier not knowing that you are owning that amp already.

Based on your statement above and having by now listened to some of your great playing I'd like to offer some final thoughts from my end.

A friend of mine plays bass and also guitar and we meet regularly to learn some new tunes and to practice. When at his house we play in the living room and I'll be using his 70's SF Vibro Champ that is stock except of the speaker which is a basic Weber 8" replacement speaker.

We practiced last night and paid some extra attention to the amp because of this thread and here are a couple of thoughts from my end.

I'm able to get a really nice, warm, "wood like" sound with the amp using my "plywood" hollowbody jazz box that is equipped with a low impedance pickup in the neck position. Due to the low output of the pickup I prefer to use the "Hi" input on the amp to not have to crank the volume up too far and still have sufficient amount of headroom for living room compatible volume levels. When playing Kalamazoo made "Epiphone by Gibson" Semi-Hollowbody that is equipped with Gibson PAF Humbuckers I use the "Lo" input to avoid the pre-amp circuit starting to break up at already very low volume levels. In regards to playing with other instruments I really like the guitar tone from this amp when playing duo with my friend playing an unamplified upright bass. The acoustic bass tone nicely compensates for the lack of bottom end the Vibro Champ is offering resulting a balanced sound for the combined instruments (for my taste). When playing guitar duo the sound is still nice, however I miss at any given volume level the low end attack that a 12" open cabinet speaker offers or some small closed speaker cabinet. This is in particular the case when playing chords on the Hollowbody that has flatwound strings on it. It is not so much an issue to me when playing single notes. Hence my comments in respect BJr and bigger speaker in my posts earlier. Based on these observations I don't expect the amp to sound all that great if I had to play chords behind one or two horn or brass players with no bass player around. I have no idea how it would sound when playing together with a pianist.

All in all I would recommend a SF vibro champ as a potentially viable, although not perfect solution for what I understand you are looking for. This is only as long as you don't mind the lack of low frequency response. I love the form (and weight) factor! Unless that you already know or own the amp

you may want to check one out if an opportunity exists. At the very least it will give you a point of reference to compare other solutions to.

Hope that you find this to be useful. Good Luck!