The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #476

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    So using three fingers did not IMPEDE Wes -

    BUT - USING ONLY THREE FINGERS will NOT necessarily help YOU.

    Wes was not only Wes ...( Genius at Improv , Chords
    Genetics ).

    Wes CREATED his own STYLE - this THREAD is about superficially COPYING someone not creating your own style .
    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    ' Ridiculous Sarcasm Robert '
    On a philosophical level I might agree with you, but not in a practical sense. Wes is in no way unique in playing 3 fingers. There is just so many great players doing the 3 finger thing, both in jazz, blues and rock.

    Christian mentioned something similar higher in this thread. My first guitar book as a child was aimed at classical players and I've been playing 4 fingers ever since. Around 5 years ago my left wrist started hurting bad.

    The cure for me was to wrap my thumb around the fretboard and change to a 3 finger technique. I off course still do the 4 finger thing at times, but the last couple of years I've worked hard to make 3 fingers my default and it has greatly relieved my wrist pain.

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  3. #477

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    Somewhat ironically, I am actually working to make my left hand more classical.

  4. #478

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    On a philosophical level I might agree with you, but not in a practical sense. Wes is in no way unique in playing 3 fingers. There is just so many great players doing the 3 finger thing, both in jazz, blues and rock.

    Christian mentioned something similar higher in this thread. My first guitar book as a child was aimed at classical players and I've been playing 4 fingers ever since. Around 5 years ago my left wrist started hurting bad.

    The cure for me was to wrap my thumb around the fretboard and change to a 3 finger technique. I off course still do the 4 finger thing at times, but the last couple of years I've worked hard to make 3 fingers my default and it has greatly relieved my wrist pain.
    This is confusing. I'd always heard that classical technique was developed mainly to help develop great playing while also preventing injuries to the hands and wrists. This is new for me to hear otherwise.

  5. #479

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    BTW at no point is the argument for me 4 fingers bad 3 fingers good.

    I’ve always use all 4. Early classical training. I’m not going to stop now.

    The argument is ‘3 fingers with a pronated hand and thumb over is a different and valid school of technique.’

    Miles Okazaki actually retrained himself to play this way afaik.

    OTOH you have many great players who use 4 fingers. I’m not sure Lage Lund with his small hands would have adapted naturally to a 3 fingered technique.

    And there are some who really cannot thumb fret.

    Advantage of classical technique - it works for everyone.

  6. #480

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    This is confusing. I'd always heard that classical technique was developed mainly to help develop great playing while also preventing injuries to the hands and wrists. This is new for me to hear otherwise.
    Classical technique was developed to facilitate the execution of demanding polyphonic music on the guitar.

    Injuries are only avoided if the student is fastidious about posture and stance. Hence the need for a teacher.

    The footstool ain’t great for your back tho.
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-13-2018 at 06:37 PM.

  7. #481

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    Also bear in mind classical guitar technique as we understand it is quite young - especially the right hand. 17th, 18th and 19th century players employed different techniques on different instruments.

    Segovia was waging a PR campaign to make the guitar acceptable as a concert instrument. It served him well to have a legit technique that looked different from flamenco, jazz and folk players, although it undoubtedly served the needs of playing, say, Bach.

    To give an idea - Julian Bream was largely self taught. There was no guitar teacher at the Royal College. The pedagogy is YOUNG - hence the fact that new players are constantly raising the technical bar.

    In fact the pedagogy is pretty much contemporary with plectrum guitar.
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-13-2018 at 06:53 PM.

  8. #482

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    I'm going to post this cos I love it :-)



    Same piece, different posture:


  9. #483

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  10. #484

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    This is confusing. I'd always heard that classical technique was developed mainly to help develop great playing while also preventing injuries to the hands and wrists. This is new for me to hear otherwise.
    There are several issues. But the main issue is vibrato and bending. I don't think you see much of that in classical

    By lengthening your strap and wrapping your thumb around the neck you minimize the strain on your wrist .. but doing that kinda forces you into the 3 finger thing.

    But my wrist just isn't what it used to be. I've been forced to go down in string gauge and even if when I don't do much in terms of vibrato and bending, it is still just preferable for me to be in the 3 finger position with the thumb over the neck most of the time.

  11. #485

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  12. #486

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    But that's by the by.... Left hand technique is pretty constant, although early players play more heavy articulation from the left hand facilated by lower tension strings, Dai (David) Miller told me, also makes nailless playing easier and more projecting... You can hear that in the Baroque guitar players, left hand legato or what?

    Maybe 15th century lutenist played thumb over lol...

  13. #487

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    BTW at no point is the argument for me 4 fingers bad 3 fingers good.

    I’ve always use all 4. Early classical training. I’m not going to stop now.

    The argument is ‘3 fingers with a pronated hand and thumb over is a different and valid school of technique.’

    Miles Okazaki actually retrained himself to play this way afaik.

    OTOH you have many great players who use 4 fingers. I’m not sure Lage Lund with his small hands would have adapted naturally to a 3 fingered technique.

    And there are some who really cannot thumb fret.

    Advantage of classical technique - it works for everyone.
    Tuck Andress has a video where he talks about three finger technique. He thinks it's superior for jazz. It's part of his larger perspective that Wes is basically perfection and we should have what we do on what he did. It's seems a little strange for him to be saying this, given how different his playing is, but he says it.

    John

  14. #488

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    I don't really worry about this question because I just tend to use whichever approach best facilitates the music at any given moment.

    I was classically trained, so from the start I was used to using all 4 fingers equally. Later I played rock guitar so then I tended to use 3 fingers since it's all based on blues, string bending etc.

    Now with jazz I will use either technique without even thinking about it. The 3 finger thing is good for any kind of blues-based, pentatonic type phrasing where you slur a lot of LH notes or use vibrato, because the 1st and 3rd fingers are so strong. But for complicated chromatic bebop-type runs, using all 4 fingers seems better. So I will switch instantly between the two as the phrases demand it, in fact I probably just see it all under one umbrella of 'jazz guitar technique'.

    But I can see that a natural approach if you are self-taught is to rely on the 3 'strongest' fingers, so it may be harder to start using all 4 if you've always done it that way.

  15. #489

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I don't really worry about this question because I just tend to use whichever approach best facilitates the music at any given moment.

    I was classically trained, so from the start I was used to using all 4 fingers equally. Later I played rock guitar so then I tended to use 3 fingers since it's all based on blues, string bending etc.

    Now with jazz I will use either technique without even thinking about it. The 3 finger thing is good for any kind of blues-based, pentatonic type phrasing where you slur a lot of LH notes or use vibrato, because the 1st and 3rd fingers are so strong. But for complicated chromatic bebop-type runs, using all 4 fingers seems better. So I will switch instantly between the two as the phrases demand it, in fact I probably just see it all under one umbrella of 'jazz guitar technique'.

    But I can see that a natural approach if you are self-taught is to rely on the 3 'strongest' fingers, so it may be harder to start using all 4 if you've always done it that way.
    Perhaps players would be more likely to develop 'idiomatic guitar language' doing the 3 fingers thing...

  16. #490

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    Am I missing something? Why would you want to not use your pinky? I feel like that's purposely playing with a handicap. If you don't want your pinky, I'm sure there are a bunch of people who would like to borrow it.

  17. #491

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    I don't think 'it's don't use your pinky' so much as 'don't use your pinky if another stronger finger is available.'

    Also the pronation of the hand makes the 4th finger less equal to the others.

    It's surprising how little of a handicap it is actually - unless you play polyphonic music. But for single note stuff I see no compelling reason why three fingers is less good, and in many cases seems to offer advantages in terms of style, tone and groove.

    I just wish I could make up my mind to use it lol.

  18. #492

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    when you're on the forum for many years the sudden renewal of such threads seems a bit crazy... (understandable but still crazy)...

    I am stiill thankful to timtheshredder that he did not begin a new thread under the name of 'Three vs Four' or 'Retarded 3-finger players and why they exist' ..

  19. #493

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    when you're on the forum for many years the sudden renewal of such threads seems a bit crazy... (understandable but still crazy)...

    I am stiill thankful to timtheshredder that he did not begin a new thread under the name of 'Three vs Four' or 'Retarded 3-finger players and why they exist' ..
    Lol

  20. #494

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It's surprising how little of a handicap it is actually - unless you play polyphonic music. But for single note stuff I see no compelling reason why three fingers is less good, and in many cases seems to offer advantages in terms of style, tone and groove.
    You'll convince me if you can play Donna Lee at 220 bpm without your pinky

  21. #495

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    I'm self-taught but a 4 finger player. Around the time I took the instrument up a good player advised me to use all four fingers and I stuck to that even though most guys I knew used 3.

    I'm still on the fence as to whether or not this was good advice. I'm sure it's benefited my playing in some respects, but in others it's probably been a handicap. To take one example, I think I've put in much more time learning to play 3 fret pull-offs with my pinky than I would have needed if I'd simply stretched my ring finger, and yet I still don't play these as well as I would like.

    I do like to think that, on balance, the advantages of 4 fingers outweigh the disadvantages but I don't think it's clear cut. I've seriously thought about putting in some hours practising with 3 fingers so that I can mix it up a bit.

    Of course a lot will depend on your hands.

  22. #496

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    You'll convince me if you can play Donna Lee at 220 bpm without your pinky
    Hmm I’ve honestly never tried as a 4 finger player but it would be an interesting experiment.

    OTOH again (I’m assuming you haven’t bothered to read the thread or even my last comments for that matter, hey I enjoy repeating myself) is ‘never use your pinky’ - it’s just heavily preference the other three fingers, heavily pronate the right hand to the point where you thumb goes over and don’t play positions - i.e. shift a lot.

    Pinky can be quite handy for blues turns etc in this position - I think that’s the way Wes, Grant Green, Peter Bernstein and Pat Metheny tend to use it while generally being three fingered shifty players.

    Seeing as that’s what the a large share of the great jazz guitarists have done (exceptions including Jim Hall and Joe pass) so I’m sure someone can find a version by one of those.

  23. #497

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    I know, the point is not to religiously never use pinky. My concern is that if I avoid using my pinky much of the time, it won't be a reliable asset when I need it. Because the truth is that one can not use it for 99.99 percent of the time once one gets good enough reaching with the ring finger, shifting and finding good fingerings along the fretboard. That means pinky won't get enough workout to be ready when needed.
    Well, that is the concern. BUT I'm willing to believe that that's just theoretical OCD thinking. In practice pinky won't be doing the toughest job when needed and also it will get workout when chording and chord soloing.

  24. #498

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    But then a head like Donna Lee which enormously benefits from fingering 3 notes per string along 4 fret reach would be the question for a 3 finger player in terms of if the pinky can be athletic enough to pull it off .

  25. #499

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I know, the point is not to religiously never use pinky. My concern is that if I avoid using my pinky much of the time, it won't be a reliable asset when I need it. Because the truth is that one can not use it for 99.99 percent of the time once one gets good enough reaching with the ring finger, shifting and finding good fingerings along the fretboard. That means pinky won't get enough workout to be ready when needed.
    Well, that is the concern. BUT I'm willing to believe that that's just theoretical OCD thinking. In practice pinky won't be doing the toughest job when needed and also it will get workout when chording and chord soloing.
    Funny what people worry about

    I think it’s incorrect to imagine the pinky is a muscle that you exercise. Whether or not you can reliably use your pinky has much more to do with left hand alignment, and actuating the right joints.

    But in aligning the left hand ‘correctly’ (ie no pronation) you trade off a few of other things such as the reach of the third finger and the ability to pop the thumb over the top of the neck.
    But obviously this is a better position for Polyphonic fingerings, stretch chords and holdsworth style legato.

    Most players sit somewhere on a spectrum between the two extremes but I feel optimal technique is basically one or the other....

    We all pronate our hand to various degrees even in classical playing. For instance I was taught to fret a C major scale on the B and E strings 1 3 0 1 3.... in fact some teachers suggest 1 4 0 1 4. Look what your hand does in each case.... otoh can one cleanly play a C major open chord without pronating?

    So the fingers I don’t think is as important as the stance of the left hand. Stuff like what fingerings you use come naturally from that basis. A study of this axis of movement of the left hand I think is really useful for making informed decisions about fret hand technique.

    Lastly I have noticed that while many players are happy to copy equipment in order to imitate a player, fewer seem happy to copy what a player is doing physically. I think the main reason for that is dogmatic teaching.

  26. #500

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    Holdsworth had this weird thing where he pronates slightly and then reaches over with his pinky