My guitar practise log--your comments and own examples please?

[fep]

C.A.JO. said he would do skills 80% vs songs 20% during his skills portion of his year. And songs/applications 80% vs. 20% skills during his application period.

You are at a very different place than C.A.JO (who I believe is a virtuoso), I think you should consider that learning songs as a beginer is developing skills. You're learning the technique of making quick and smooth chord changes, you're learning the technique of playing melodies smoothly all the while learning to play songs, you're learning the technique of making music - i.e. dynamics, tempo, feeling the music, this stuff is so important. At the beginning stages these are the techniques you should be focusing on.

At this point in your development learning to play an altered dominant scale all over the neck with 16th notes at 160bpm makes no sense, leave that to the virtuoso. Trying to develop virtuoso skills instead of playing songs when you're a beginner makes no sense to me.

Also consider professionals like CAJO already play tons of songs every week because they are either doing paid perfomances or teaching songs as part of their teaching gig. I'd guess when CAJO is focusing on his 6 month skill period he is still playing lots of songs. I think the giging musician might not need to play songs as much when practicing because they're already playing songs so much.

[fep]

Another thing...

I would consider the Goodrick "modal jams" that you do to fall under the classification of "playing". Make up a melody or two for each jam, remember that melody and play it as part of the modal jam, then do your improve... and you've got a song.

And another thing...

It makes sense to me to start with easy songs. I'd choose songs like C Jam Blues, Autumn Leaves, All Blues, Blue Bossa etc. ... before something like The Shadow of Your Smile.

[elixzer]

Thnaks

At the moment I am doing this Jazz guitar - Jazz chord progressions for Guitar : shanzuguitars.com
Ie., although i am fairly au fe with the regular chords, and changing them, with the 7ths i am not. Not only not being flowing with changing one to other but in knowing what they are. So i am trying that with these excercises

[elixzer]

Tell you what i would love to get to know more about right now. HOW to finger jazz chords and the BESt way to do so. Is there any help on this please?

I learned a little about anchoring regular chords which I ALSo need to relearn a bit, but 7ths are more complex than triads

[Gramps]

Try this site. ChopsFactory-Jazz Guitar Chords

In the upper left border is a list for Major, Minor......etc.

[elixzer]

Originally Posted by Gramps

Try this site. ChopsFactory-Jazz Guitar Chords

In the upper right border is a list for Major, Minor......etc.

Thanks!! great site.

How do you Jazz players come to memorize these chords? What is your practice method to do that? And/or your songs way?

by the way, that link still doesn't seem to suggest what fingers should finger the chords? Are there any sources which help us learn how to finger the chords in skillfull ways which also helps transition to other easier

I just found this page--in my looking for this--where it said how many guitar tachers tell their students to finger the Gmajor chord with 1st finger on 6th string which--it calims--makes it real hard to access other chords and so suggests 2nd finger on 6th and pinky on 1st (which is also the Classical way)--stuff like that?

[Goofsus4]

Originally Posted by elixzer

Thanks!! great site.

How do you Jazz players come to memorize these chords? What is your practice method to do that? And/or your songs way?

by the way, that link still doesn't seem to suggest what fingers should finger the chords? Are there any sources which help us learn how to finger the chords in skillfull ways which also helps transition to other easier

I just found this page--in my looking for this--where it said how many guitar tachers tell their students to finger the Gmajor chord with 1st finger on 6th string which--it calims--makes it real hard to access other chords and so suggests 2nd finger on 6th and pinky on 1st (which is also the Classical way)--stuff like that?

The thing that helped me learn and remember voicings was to arrange my own chord melodies. That is guaranteed to put a lot of chords under your fingertips. And, if you want to keep those arrangements up to performance quality, you'll have to play them a lot which commits the voicings into long term memory. This helped me more than just learning to play the rhythm parts of songs because you can't default to just familar voicings. You have to change the voicings to accomodate movement in the melody line.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by fep

Forum members... Do you agree with Bill Thrashers comments above regarding the importance of playing songs... lots of songs... as your number one priority in your practice shedule?

ABSOLUTELY.

As for opening new doors, well, you'd be able to play songs you've never heard. That's pretty good, methinks.

[elixzer]

Originally Posted by Goofsus4

The thing that helped me learn and remember voicings was to arrange my own chord melodies. That is guaranteed to put a lot of chords under your fingertips. And, if you want to keep those arrangements up to performance quality, you'll have to play them a lot which commits the voicings into long term memory. This helped me more than just learning to play the rhythm parts of songs because you can't default to just familar voicings. You have to change the voicings to accomodate movement in the melody line.

So you call what I am calling 'chords' 'voicings'? So you mean the melody that comes from chord melodies?

I didn't quite understand (IF I understood that bit) the last part of what you said.

This helped me more than just learning to play the rhythm parts of songs because you can't default to just familar voicings. You have to change the voicings to accomodate movement in the melody line

[elixzer]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

ABSOLUTELY.

As for opening new doors, well, you'd be able to play songs you've never heard. That's pretty good, methinks.

sorry if I am not understanding good today, but I dont get you. I'd be able to play songs i'd never heard?

How do you mean?

[mr. beaumont]

No prob--I wasn't clear as to what I was talking about--I was referring to your question about learning to read music.

[elixzer]

In looking for some kind of guidance for fingering of chords I found this cool site Gootar Guitar Chords Generator Finder with Sound, 86 million chords, Vertical Fretboard

[C.A.JO.]

Originally Posted by elixzer

I am not sure I am clear with you? What do you think the emphasis on learning songs I have been given? Did you have a look at my practice log (first post)? Where I was focusing on skill-expanding practice.
because here you seem to suggest in order to be virtuoso that is more what you need, and then say that learning that AND playing songs cannot be at same time. This implies to me that me now suddenly devoting my time to learning eg The Shadow of Your Smile --which WILl take up much of my time will take away from the skills drive I was embarking on above--diggin that I am not even an experienced player yet.
Your furthwer throughts on this please?

You can certainly do both things at the same time (learning songs, skill expansion). But I personally choose to use laser-like focus on a few things at a time. Therefor I have 6 month practice schedule dedicated mostly for skill expanding practice. This means that I focus about 80% of my practice time on technique, theory, aural skills, fretboard knowledge. The 20% is used for repertoire, runs, and licks. After 6 months I use another 6-month plan where the numbers are the opposite. Here I dedicate 80% of my practice time for composition, learning songs, licks, transcribing (basically I incorporate the tools I spent the last 6 months on learning - application of things I know). The remaining 20% of the time is used for sight reading, and maintaining my technique.

This is just my way of doing things. Some other players recommend you put all your focus on learning songs, and expand your skill this way. That thing just didn't work for me. I personally like to learn and know the "general mechanics, rules and theories" first, and then adding songs afterwards to be shown examples. Others like to do the opposite; show you a song, and then deduce the mechanics and principles in it. The weakness of this approach (in my opinion) is that all the theory and technique you learn is from 1 or 2 songs only (in most cases), and therefor not very thorough. The advantage is that you learn musical sounds first, and in most cases it's a bit more interesting. At first! All good comes to those who have the patience!.
Example: Vibrato technique. I could show you how the vibrato technique works by learning you a BB King solo where he vibrates with his first finger on the B and e strings only. You would see this technique working with a musical example. Another way is to show you the vibrato technique with the chromatic scale, using all 4 fingers on all strings. This is better seen from a technical point of view, but not from a musical sounding point of view (it sounds more boring). After you've learning vibrato with all 4 fingers, on all strings and all frets, then I would show some solos or songs to give musical examples. You see, that's basically the two "approaches": one working from the context from a song and then to the exercise or vice versa. I prefer method 2 for most cases. It really depends on the student, and I'm able to adjust. But think of it this way: you first learn the alphabet and then learn to read a book. The teacher don't give kids a book, and then try to explain what letters are used, and how they work.

Another thing is that there are not two persons with the same practice schedule. I believe that you should practice to your weaknesses mostly. Therefor looking at your schedule doesn't give me much to work with, because I can't hear or see you play. To give you proper advice I would have to sit next to you and hear you play.
Learning scales and modes are certainly important. But since I don't know you, I can't tell if there is something you need to work on before you learn modes.
Also, the songs you practice to learn should be something you CAN learn - the have to match your current level. Therefor I simply don't know if the things you are working on is the right things to do for you.

On a general level, these are the areas all musicians (should) focus on:

- technique
- theory + ear training
- reading notation/sight reading
- improvisation/composition
- repertoire
- listening

My best advice for you is to determine your strengths and weaknesses in each of these areas. Nurture all your strengths 1/3 of your practice time, and spend 2/3 of your practice time on your weaknesses. For instance if you are good at technique but don't know theory, then stop practicing technique all the time. Work on your theoretic skills until they're at the same level as your fingers. Or it could be that you know all the modes, but can't "hear" them in your head, then work more on ear training. Keep adjusting as you progress.

[Gramps]

From what I've seen in this thread anything that Elixzer learns will be an exercise in technique, theory/eartraining and repertoire. He is a begining guitar player who doesn't have any foundation to build on yet.

He doesn't know any chords so starting out with chord melodies will be a daunting task.

I've already giving my opinion about what I'd suggest for a beginner learning to play guitar so I won't repeat myself. Id only like to point out that none of these issues are an either/or situation. You should read and work on ear training. You should learn songs and practice technique designed to further your understanding of theory. Just be carefull that you don't get swamped by taking on too much at once.

[elixzer]

GREAt reply and advice C.A.J.O

"But think of it this way: you first learn the alphabet and then learn to read a book. The teacher don't give kids a book, and then try to explain what letters are used, and how they work."

Yes, that is what I thought I had got insight to previous to posting up my log. Above I copied a reply from Scotty from Absolutelyunderstandguitar who also emphasizes the metphor of music being like an alphabet, thus a language, and that was the reason I wasn't jumping into learning songs as such because they can tek up time to complete. BUT the advice here has taken away a block that i was deliberately avoiding doing a song. Well I have done a simple Classical piece...kinda, and of course Blowin in the Wind, A, D, E repeat
But my intention before was that via learning the 'language' if you like that eventaully I would be able to play MY song in my head from ear, but maybe too ambitious

"Another thing is that there are not two persons with the same practice schedule. I believe that you should practice to your weaknesses mostly. Therefor looking at your schedule doesn't give me much to work with, because I can't hear or see you play. To give you proper advice I would have to sit next to you and hear you play.
Learning scales and modes are certainly important. But since I don't know you, I can't tell if there is something you need to work on before you learn modes.
Also, the songs you practice to learn should be something you CAN learn - the have to match your current level. Therefor I simply don't know if the things you are working on is the right things to do for you."

I have LOTS I will have to trust myself to feel what I need. Even if 'not in right order' learning modes can't hurt. When I have begun exploring them I have naturally found melody runs of songs I have known which is good for ear training

At the moment I am trying to imbibe jazz chords, but am a little fruistrated because I would like diagrams to include finger numbers, and have info about easiest way to go from one to the other. Many time I hear warning of learning bad habits, but guessing this can include finger scales in a cumbersome way, and in transition I dont see much help for that. THOUGH to be fair I haven't studied all of Jazzguitar's e-book of chords yet

Some of these Jazz chords are So beautiful to play and hear that often I just get into a trance strumming one and 'waste' time lol