b9 chords help???

[doruondun]

I'm a beginner to jazz and trying to practice with Mickey Baker's method... But I'm triyng to figure out the chords like D13b5b9:

-----7 (B --> 13th)
-----7 (B --> 13th)
-5--- (Gb "octave" --> b5)
---6- (D#/Eb --> b9)
4---- (Gb --> b5)

Mentally D13b5b9's root is "D", but I see that there is "D#" (b9) in the chord not a "D"? I'm really confused... Also in A13b9 chord thare is A# note, not "A"... I don't get it. If there is the b9, does it mean that we shouldn't play the "root"? I mean is it D# chord with D's degrees when we see the b9 symbol?

[hot ford coupe]

I'm not a music theory expert but from what I know, the D# should be called Eb and the A# should be called Bb. What you do is go to the 9th and then take a step backwards. That gives you the b9. BTW, when I play that type of chord, I usually leave out the root. For the type of music I play, I just don't need that kind of dissonance so I don't even think about it.

[GodinFan]

A D13 (b5,b9) chord is made up of the pitches:

D F# Ab C Eb B

It's common on a chord to leave the root to the bass, and play third, seventh and some of the colour tones.

[bako]

The numbers refer to the order of notes of the major scale based on the root of the chord.
The chord symbol and consequentially the chord formula modify the scale.

In this case

D13b5b9

Dmajor scale
1/8---D
2/9---E
3/10--F#
4/11--G
5/12--A
6/13--B
7/14--C#
8/15---D

D13b5b9-----1 3 b5 b7 b9 13

Scale tones become:
1---D
3---F#
b5--Ab
b7--C
b9--Eb
13--B

Sometimes notes are carelessly spelled wrong by people and even in books. Other times it is done on purpose because it is felt to be easier to understand. Example: D7#9 the #9 is frequently spelled as an F instead of the technically correct E#. E# and B# don't come up that frequently and neither do double flats and sharps and avoiding these names is generally the reason someone would consciously choose the wrong spelling.

Knowing all the major scale key signatures is the starting point to being able to interpret the numbers of a chord symbol.

[GuitaRoland]

Originally Posted by doruondun

I'm a beginner to jazz and trying to practice with Mickey Baker's method... But I'm triyng to figure out the chords like D13b5b9:

I'm no expert in music theory, but some chords are written in a way that is almost impossible to play on a guitar.
It' a big difference on a piano where you have an opportunity to play 10 notes. Maybe BigDaddyLoveHandles can give us his explanation.

/R

[Reg]

More important than how to voice the chord is where do the notes come from and how does it function, D13b5b9 is not a standard chord. Obviously because of the tri-tone there will be dom. function but the chord is probable pulled from Sym. Dim. D,Eb,F,Gb,Ab,A,B,C,, which always complicates chord spelling because of extra note in scale. The spelling of the chord is usually D13b9#11, ( because their is a Nat. 5th in the collection of notes derived from Sym. Dim., also a #9 ) The more common b9 nat 13 chord is the V7 chord from Harmonic Maj. or V13b9, with a Nat. 5th and 11th. Some times different modes or collections of notes are combined, or notes are added to dom. chords for more texture or to cover a melody note... My point is that since the chord is not naturally derived from typical Jazz harmony you should make sure your voicing has the uncharacteristic note or notes played or implied and in order to do so you need to know where the chord is from...Reg

[bako]

This chord has 3 tensions

D F# Ab C Eb B

Collectively they form an Abm triad

b5 is also #11. Chords with a 9/11/13 often form a triad.

Playable 4 note chords with all the tensions the chords can include:

1/b5/b9/13
3/b5/b9/13
b7/b5/b9/13

Two possible ways to play a 5 note chord:

F# C Eb Ab B
On strings 1-5 this would involve playing notes on the 8th and 7th fret both with the first finger.
On strings 2-6 this involves playing 2 notes with the 2nd finger perfectly between the 2 strings to engage both strings.

or:

C F# B Eb Ab

You can of course omit one tension, it's not always necessary to state everything indicated.

[doruondun]

Thank you. I'm really appreciated with your quick replies... Also you've showed me how I'm lack of the theory and how experience is important. But I couldn't understand how Wes Montgomery played his music without knowing this complicated theory...

So both D13b9#11 and D13b5b9 is the same chords, because D's b5=#11... so which spelling is right? And as Mickey's No.6 chord at page 2 which is D13b5b9, there is no 3rd (F#) of D. Why?

[Reg]

Originally Posted by doruondun

Thank you. I'm really appreciated with your quick replies... Also you've showed me how I'm lack of the theory and how experience is important. But I couldn't understand how Wes Montgomery played his music without knowing this complicated theory...

So both D13b9#11 and D13b5b9 is the same chords, because D's b5=#11... so which spelling is right? And as Mickey's No.6 chord at page 2 which is D13b5b9, there is no 3rd (F#) of D. Why?

There not the same chord...#11 typically means # 11 and no Natural 11, as does b5 usually means no Nat. 5. Just because a chord voicing doesn't have all the notes, doesn't mean there not implied. When you play a tune every chord implies a complete vertical collection of notes. A simple example would be; G-7 , C7 / Fmaj7 /. Even though the G-7 only spells, G,Bb,D,F, it implies a complete vertical harmonic collection of notes. In this case the 1st choice would be G Dorian, G,A,Bb,C,D,E,F, the chord tones would be Root-G, 3rd-Bb, 5th-D, 7th-F, 9th-A, 11th-C, 13th-E. Sometimes people still say b3rd. and b7th in reference to Maj. Dorion already implies that. There are other choices, but that's another subject.
Back when Wes played music was a lot less complicated. The language wasn't as developed and Wes was a pretty straight player, He's still one of my favorite Guitarist. And yes an understanding of Theory always helps, there are no official rules as what is required to be a musician, but if your ears don't know or understand things...many times what you think your hearing or playing will change when you see a larger picture.. Reg

[Flat5]

I once went to an Guitar Workshop ('70s) hosted by both Herb Ellis (R.I.P., Herb) and Joe Pass. A guy got up and asked: "Joe, what are you thinking when you're playing over D13b5b9 ( I knew it was from the Mickey Baker Book)? Joe's response: "I'm thinking D7". K.I.S.S., Keep It Simple, Stupid.
D13b5b9 is a dominant chord, a Five chord.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

The original post garbled the chord (at least I can't make head or tail of it) but doesn't Mickey Baker love this ending?

46x577 D13b5b9
35x477 GMaj7