can an old dog learn new tricks?

[billd]

Hi everyone. I have a question, but first I must give some context...

I am 42-years-old, and have been playing for 30 years. I consider myself to be a pretty accomplished rock/funk type of player, but though my style has always contained elements of jazz, I've never considered myself a jazz player. In fact, until now, I have never made a systematic approach to learning to play to jazz changes, as I was always so intimidated/frustrated by it.

I am not a beginner and I know my scales and chords (one thing I did get by going to Berklee, I guess). And I have been listening to classic jazz for decades. Now I want to finally do what I've avoided forever: I want to be a proficient jazz player.

My question is this...can a middle aged guy do this? I have restricted practice time (per day due to work, family, etc.), but can probably fit in 1-2 hrs per day. I am not looking to be Pat Martino! I just want to be able to competently get through standards and blues in any key (i.e., Real Book stuff).

Is there hope before I am 50?

Thanks and I really look forward to what the great players in this forum have to say.

Bill

[revmcintyre]

Hey I'm turning 65 and and just learning Jazz. I take lessons from a guy a year older who is an accomplished guitarist. Age has nothing to do with it, only desire and love of music.

TheRev

[THIRD STONE]

I am in my 50's and trying to pick this stuff up on line. You tube videos, and sites like this which I just found on a google search. I currently have a Fender strat with two texas specials and a pearly gates plus in the bridge, and pretty much get my jazzy sounds from my line 6 toneport. I also have a epiphone dot.

[teleman67]

What a subject for my first day of registration on this forum! I am 67 and been playing for over 40 years, starting off with rock 'n' roll and then on to country rock. I want to get into jazz chords so that I can play western swing to start with ( some of these guys were great jazz musicians) and then progress from there. I love all kinds of good music. I have Django, Wes, Barney etc in my collection - just discovered John Pizzarelli. I am based in the UK but living in Taiwan for a year - plenty of time to practise. Never too late and no arthiritis yet! By the way, any definition of a "jazz guitarist"? - or are we pretty flexible here?????????

[TommyD]

The great French photographer, Henri Cartier Bresson said it best: When asked if he thinks about age and the fact that he is still working, he said,
"I do not think about age. You are either alive...... or not."
My feelings exactly!

Tell me something, orig. poster, what will happen to your existence on this earth if you decide that you are too old to begin learning jazz and don't start? Or anything, for that matter?

I can tell you the answer. For all intents and purposes, you will have decided to end your life, for you will have relinquished the hope that makes life worthwhile.
God save us from that!
Please - do it as though you had a lifetime before you, because you know what? You do!
Think about it.
Tommy/

[franco6719]

What happens if you do in fact want to play as well as Pat Martino though?

[billd]

Originally Posted by franco6719

What happens if you do in fact want to play as well as Pat Martino though?

I think I'd need to move into a monastery, because as a family man, I would never be able to put that kind of time in!

[billd]

I appreciate all the input so far. But I guess maybe some of the replies are slightly missing my point.

I am not asking whether older guys should follow their dreams, as that seems pretty obvious. If this were sports, and I wondered whether I—at 42—could become a competitive tennis player, I would understand if that goal were not possible. And it might affect the amount of time put into it.

So, is being a comeptent jazz player possible, given the background I gave when in the thread's first post? In other words, will I be able to do this on 1-2 hours a day, given my level of experience?

I'm wondering if any fellow readers out there have switched gears after years in one genre and made him/herself into a decent jazz player, without the 5-10 hours a day required to be elite. (Not an option for me!)

[TommyD]

Originally Posted by billd

I appreciate all the input so far. But I guess maybe some of the replies are slightly missing my point.

I am not asking whether older guys should follow their dreams, as that seems pretty obvious. If this were sports, and I wondered whether I—at 42—could become a competitive tennis player, I would understand if that goal were not possible. And it might affect the amount of time put into it.

So, is being a comeptent jazz player possible, given the background I gave when in the thread's first post? In other words, will I be able to do this on 1-2 hours a day, given my level of experience?

I'm wondering if any fellow readers out there have switched gears after years in one genre and made him/herself into a decent jazz player, without the 5-10 hours a day required to be elite. (Not an option for me!)

On the terms you've set down, that's impossible to answer. How does any of us know whether you've got talent, and how much?
I can tell you this; to become really skilled at a professional level at anything, you have to start early - tennis, ballet, piano, jazz guitar. You can learn what you're able to learn under the metrics of your talent and determination. If you're asking whether you can become a decent jazz player @ 1, 2 hours a day, you'll have to define that, too.
Tommy/

[abracadabra]

As an aside, I saw this on the Discovery Channel program 'Mythbusters', in which they conclusively proved that an old dog can, in fact, learn new tricks.

[cosmic gumbo]

Find a good teacher that understands exactly what you need to know. This will accelerate the process greatly, having a mentor to work with. Some good teachers can give you one extended lesson per month that will keep you busy until the next lesson. Doing it yourself can be a slow and error prone process. You have to wade through a more than usual amount of bullshit to teach yourself in a vacuum, even with this interweb stuff.

[Scrybe]

In the 80s Pat Martino had to completely relearn playing the guitar after losing the ability following a brain aneurism. It took him about 7 years to put out another record. I don't know how old Pat was in the 80s, but I think that says something about how feasible it is...

[zz5555]

There have been plenty of studies that show that the old saw "You can't teach an old dog new tricks" is nothing but a bunch of bunk. So your question really boils down to: Can anyone learn to be a good jazz player while spending 1-2 hours a day? You apparently already know your way around the fretboard, so it would seem that all you really need to learn is the jazz way of doing things (whatever that is - I'm new at this myself). There's no question in my mind as to whether this can be done. You have 8 years before you're 50, which I think should be more than enough time - if you apply yourself. I only have 4 more months before I'm 50, so I don't have as much time. Fortunately, I'm unemployed (anybody looking for a good software/aerospace engineer? , so I have more time for practicing.

[jimbach]

As a 46-year-old who's really just delving seriously into jazz playing this year, I think that someone "our" age is fine, arthritis excepted I suppose. I think general talent level and the amount of time one has to devote to it is far more important.

[mr. beaumont]

i think you absolutely can.

i'd focus on learning songs first. play the head, brush up on the reading. learn the chords to every tune in a couple of spots on the neck. know the melody inside out, as that's the best place to fall back on for improvising.

once you have a little stack of songs, then you can go in, starting picking out the arpeggios for every chord, connecting them, making jazz. there's some legwork, but that concept is pretty simple, and it will get you far.

make sure you save time in your schedule for listening, as well. living with the music constantly is the best way to get it in your blood.

[Space Pickle]

In other words, will I be able to do this on 1-2 hours a day, given my level of experience?

yes.

[Reg]

It's going to be extremely difficult... to be a player who plays jazz might be possible... but to be a real jazz player... I've seen great blues and rock players become capable of covering jazz gigs in 5 years of pretty serious practice schedules. It takes years just to get through playing and listening to the music of the past... which is pretty much required to be able have an understanding of what jazz is. When were you at berklee, do you understand what your playing, harmonic function, jazz theory, how's your reading etc... Having said all the discouraging practical implications... I would give it a go if I were in your shoes. At 42 you can probably still give up a lot of sleep, sounds like you've already have a jump on the listening part. How old are your kids... once their in HS, you'll have much more time, your usually the last person they want to see...except for the green stuff... Beside practice schedule, which should have a few long sessions to go along with daily routine, I would play as many gigs as you can, Jazz is about live music. Sounds like you have some blues experience... that's a total plus, if you can groove etc... Best..Reg

[Space Pickle]

Why don't you just do your rock thing on jazz changes. No need to reinvent the wheel.

[derek]

Yes you can, it happens all the time. Twas about the age I started studying jazz, and I have been at it about 7 years or so. If you are able to consistently put in a couple of hours per day, you will need about 10 years to get to where you want to go. We probably need to define competent though.

I gig regularly playing chord melody versions of standards and newer pop tunes. I can comp well, and can hack my way thru soloing over most tunes. Single note stuff is my weakest area, because I don't spend as much time on it. As pointed out above, getting a good teacher will accelerate the process.

Here is a guy who started in his early 40's after years of playing rock stuff. He has been at it a bit longer than 10 years.

YouTube Video

[Gramps]

What is "a competent jazz player"? Being able to play some nice chord melodies or being able to play the changes and head to a bunch of standards? Being able to solo better than you could a year ago?

If you'd be happy with at least that much you should be able to reach your goals and maybe surpass them.

The thing with studying jazz is you'll never run out of something new to learn in a single life time. You might not be another (insert favorite jazz musician's name here) but if you spend an hour a day working on different aspects of playing you'll easily progress. Sure beats the hell out of watching TV plus you'll be providing a good model for your children to emulate. A bit of energy brings results.

[bass2man]

Billd:

Know exactly where you are coming from....I will be 50 this year and after playing bass for +35 years in all styles decided I wanted to pick up guitar a few years ago...I have been focusing on "jazz" for the past year...and, yes, between work and three kids, only have a few hours a night to play/study.

Instead of looking at how much you don't know about playing jazz, think of how much further you are than the guys who are just starting out playing guitar, never mind having rock or funk chops....you are years ahead of them just knowing your way around the guitar!

The question is where to start..sounds like you know your major,minor and mixolydian scales....for me, it made sense to start out with jazz blues forms..major, minor, bird , etc. and Rhythm Changes...I am now working on major and minor ii-V-I's...just those three things have given me the basics to play through easier jazz tunes..Autumn Leaves, Birks Works, Blues Bossa, Oleo, Paper Moon, etc.

Will I/you ever be able to play through Giant Steps before they put us in the ground?...who knows...I dont think spending 2 hours a night over 5 years is the same as playing 10 hours a day over one year...

I saw Les Paul when he was 90 at the Iridium in NY.....He was still going strong and loving what he was doing..

We all gotta go sometime, why not go down swinging..(bad pun..)

[wizard3739]

I hear you bass2man, I only hope I fall backward instead of forward so I don't break my guitar when I go. I am 72 and with Les Paul as a good example of what is possible, I have at least 20 years to continue learning and playing.

wiz

[PaulD]

I'm with the "yes you can" contingent. You're 42, so in 8 years you're going to be 50 whether you persue this or not. 8 years at 1-2 hours a day can yield some very real results.

Go for it!

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Originally Posted by billd

My question is this...can a middle aged guy do this?
Is there hope before I am 50?

No and no.

How's that sound to you?

[franco6719]

Very inspiring thread. I am one of those folks who stopped playing for a very long time (almost 20 years) and just picked up again in the last few years. I often get frustrated at 42 and think "Forget about this. I will take another 50 years. It's not possible, etc.. " We do the best we can and keep at it.

[cosmic gumbo]

Our dog Petey was old, but was always ready to learn a new trick. One day Buckwheat tried to learn him how to rollerskate and Petey got runned over by the 4th Street trolley. I called Buckwheat a bad word that day.

[Gramps]

LOL. Inspirational story.

[Tom Karol]

I knew Attila Zoller over a 20 year period. He was better at 70 than he had been at 50, and he was pretty darn good at 50! I've been playing for almost 50 years myself. I'm 61 now, and while I am still not anywhere near that good (and never will be), I do seem to be getting better (albeit slowly).

[derek]

I mentioned these guys lately in another thread, but Buck Pizzarelli (84), Mundell Lowe (88), Jim Hall (80), are all playing at a pretty high level and performing. Les Paul (94) and Jimmy Wyble (87) both just recently passed, but were still able to play, Jimmy better than Les, as arthritis had caught up to Les a bit. Joe Diorio (74) is recovering from a stroke, and has been getting his playing skills back together. He is another master player who was playing at a really high level before he had a stroke about 4 years ago.

Joe Giglio put out a live disc of he and Joe Diorio playing together in a duet from a few years back. All proceeds go to Joe D. Wonderful disc for $10. I highly encourage you to pick it up. Rainbow Shards.

Joe Giglio-Jazz Guitarist/Vocalist/Composer...

So assuming we take care of ourselves, and don't get beer trucked, 40ish means we may have another 40 or so years of playing left. What can't be accomplished in 40 years? Good luck with it.

[abracadabra]

Well I'm 34 and my goal, since starting to play guitar properly again about three years ago, has been to learn to enjoy playing improvised jazz solos over whatever chord progression I might have in front of me.

I have about 30 minutes of spare time to commit to playing (I mean properly playing) everyday, and I have gone in the last three years from just strumming along to chord changes to playing some fairly decent stuff of late.

I always had 40 as my goal for being able to jam competently with others, but I'll achieve that way earlier, and if I had a couple of hours to spare I'm sure I'd be nearly there already. I'm not talking professional standard or any kind of fireworks, but just playing a decent solo over a couple of choruses, spelling out the changes, echoing the melody, and sounding interesting to listen to.

I think in 8 years you'll accomplish a lot more than you give yourself credit for. Remember you can use your time away from the guitar effectively too. I'm not 42 yet, and I'm sure learning gets harder as you get older, as I even notice that with 8 years to go (!) but I kind of think this is a non-issue as far as getting to a level where you can play over most songs and enjoy doing so.