Transcribing Tips Needed

[Scrybe]

Okay, I've been singing notes on the guitar as I play them (sometimes with more success than others...there's an inconsistency to it from day to day), I've been using Karajan o tactics interval and sale recognition while travelling, and I've been singing intervals played on my guitar plus trying to sing along to records as much as possible, at least finding the tonic. I'm also gonna starttrying to sing the intervals in a basic triad while strumming the triad then move onto extensions too.

But I've hit a wall and don't feel much improvement in my abilities in a musical context. I can identify most basic intervals (min/maj2, 3, 6, 7, and perfect 4ths n 5ths), but can't sem to hold a phrase in my head properly yet. Tried transcribing Straight No Chaser before and got the general movement correct but was unsure of the intervals of a 4th n a maj2nd (ichecked afterwards with a real book) - I had a maj3rd n a min2nd instead, and started on the root of the chord instead of the fifth.

Is trying to transcibe other instruments particularly tough? This was horns n I used my guitar to transcribe so nothing really sounded 'exact' - I think the timbre was confusing me. Plus the speed of the phrase! Also did Pork Pieawhile back n nailed it except or theslurred opening note - I just slid into the second note, but there is a sax slur on the record, I just couldn't locate the pitch. I'm finding other instruments and dynamic changes can really throw my pitch accuracy out badly (not good when jamming or playing out!).

I'm guessing much of this is merely "I've plateaued temporarily n must keep pushing to reach the next breakthrough" but is there anything I can do to help me focus on the fundamental note and filter out hearing the harmonic overtones when transcribing other instruments? Or overcome the sax crescendo being associated by my ears with possible pitch increase? Or is it just patience and continued practice?

I'm realising just how much playing jazz and improvising requires multitasking! If eg I'm listening to a guitar line while playing myself, I can gear when they both move in step/harmony, and when they move obliquely or in contrary motion, but I can't keep track of what both is doing. Should I be listening more to ech individual line or just the harmony they create for now?

Also, if I strum a C6 chord on it's own, how the heck am I supposed to hear the C as the tonic note when it could also be an Am7 chord?!? Say it's a tune involving solo guitar on a one chord vamp - do I just take the lowest chord tone as the root in that case?

Thanks for the advice guys, I'm gonna keep working but I feel I've really hit a wall on this one. I know my pitch memory is weak and will need a ton of work to be developed, I just could do with some encouragement that this isn't totally futile, and any tips to make my practice more efficient. My key foals right now are to internalize the pitches and where they are on the guitar so I can pay full attention to the sounds I'm making in the wider msical context of a group (or backing cd). Props to those who post.

[jsepguitar]

One thing you should try if you haven't already is to work on hearing each pitch in the scale relative to the tonic in your head. What I mean is, instead of playing two pitches and guessing the intervals, establish a tonic (maybe play the scale up and down to get it in your head) and then play notes and guess what note they are in the scale (M3, P4, etc) relative to the tonic you are retaining in your memory. Then work up to 2 note phrases, 3 note phrases, etc. I guess I got the idea from reading up on Bruce Arnold's ideas of ear training. I haven't used any of his books, but the idea made sense to me, so I've been doing some of my own exercises. You can read a little bit about his approach in the article below.

Ear Training With Bruce Arnold

[FatJeff]

Sounds like your real difficulty is with ear ability, instead of transcribing per se. Rest assured, practice will make this better. A lot of sounds that seem foreign to you now will become old hat with repetition. Forge ahead boldly.

To your question about C6 vs. Am7, it's all in the context. Your ear will "hear" the proper tonality depending on a couple of things. A very important one which you've already mentioned is the root note. Another important factor is the harmonic history of the song - i.e. the 2 or 3 chords immediately preceding the one in question.

You might want to pick some easier tunes to transcribe than Straight No Chaser. The notes themselves are not so bad, but the rhythm (as is typical with many Thelonius songs) is quite tricky. And make sure to pick a player who not only plays solos slow enough to follow, but doesn't reharmonize everything into obscurity. Generally speaking, I've found that the older the recording, the easier the changes tend to be (not full of all sorts of substitutions) and hence the easier it is to know where you are in the song. That's why early 50s Miles Davis recordings are good to transcribe, as are Lester Young recordings.

Keep it up!

[TommyD]

Do the Joe Pass trick; play a chord, say G13th. Hold it for a minute until it sort of sinks into your brain, and then run up the scale of that chord. Include all the notes in the chord and the notes of that scale. Start on the low E string. Then play the chord again.
Do this with every chord form you know. Learn a new chord form once in a while and do that one too. You'll learn some interesting scales in the process.
I do it every day just because it's fun, and a good warmup. For a challenge, try running the chord's scale down after striking the chord.

Tommy/

[Scrybe]

Thanks, yeah it my ear ability - I can generally hear the movement of a line (high low high) but can't hold entire phrases in my head because I don't get all the intervals right. I'm also finding my theory knowledge sometimes gets in the way - earlier was listening to a piece that went Bmin to Bbmaj7. I copped the D note sounding good against both n figured mebbe a Dmin-G7 was going on, tried it and knew it didn't sound right, but felt perplexed that the D note sounded so good against both chords (being the min3rd and maj3rd of each respectively).

I'm just finding there's so much to listen to in any piece of music, plus listening to the sounds I'm making in trying to figure it out or groove along to it that I'm having difficulty working out what to focus on and how to hold it all in my head. The rhythm of Straight No Chaser wasn't a problem, I could sing the rhythm straight away, but I'm also finding different rhythms make it harder for me to hear the intervals, if that makes any sense.

I'm just feeling frustrated, and wondering how much I'm making excuses for why I'm getting things wrong or whether working out how I've gone wrong will help me work through those problems. Thanks for the posts so far guys, much appreciated.

I can solo over chord progressions okay, but do better on modally vamps where it's closer to the blues and slower harmonic rhythm so I have a clearer idea of what's going on and where things are going, but I ultimately want to get to a point where I can clearly hear lines in eery progression before I solo over it, and the same for comping. Right now, I have to rely on chord charts and checking the key then thinking about which scales and arps I can use over it way more than I'd like. I'm finding that route falls apart completely on tues with more chords in them - I can't know (yet) that eg playing a Cmaj7 arp over an Amin will work when the next three chords have mad extensions or change key or something. Plus I'm just finding I'm generally very repetitive and inconsistent in my improvs.

[Bill C]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

Thanks, yeah it my ear ability - I can generally hear the movement of a line (high low high) but can't hold entire phrases in my head because I don't get all the intervals right.

some suggestions ...

- the software Transcribe! will let you put phrases or tiny sections of phrases under the microscope and the interface is optimised for transcribing, unlike general purpose audio editors.

- try the "first two notes in a melody" game to learn intervals - so ..

Over the Rainbow - octave
Maria (West Side Story) - tritone
Body and Soul - major second
My Romance - minor second

- it's not cheap, but David Burge's "Relative Pitch" course has worked well for me - you have to follow the rules though - ie you don't proceed to the next section until you've passed a real-time test on what you've learned. It basically hammers the sounds into your ear by sheer repetition.

good luck!

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by Scrybe

I can't know (yet) that eg playing a Cmaj7 arp over an Amin will work when the next three chords have mad extensions or change key or something.

I usually ignore extensions when I'm soloing. Look for only 3 qualities: major, minor, or dominant. If it's a m7b5, soloing as if were plain minor is fine at first. If the chord is G7b9b13, pretend it's just a G7. Abmaj7#11, just Abmaj7. You can worry about extensions/alterations later. Of course, you probably already knew this. :-)

Changing key, though...you've got to follow that. But of course when you can recognize ii-V-Is accurately, your job just got a lot easier.

[bako]

I second the use of Transcribe.
In ear training endeavors we need to accurately access what we can and can't do and find the next steps. It sounds like you are reaching for things that are beyond you at this point. Transcribe allows you to easily loop phrases, slow it down without changing the key. Smaller segments that you can hear repetitively at a slow tempo.

[peterk1]

It sounds like you definitely should be using a tool that will
i) slow things down
ii) loop little bits over and over so you can nail them.

I've never used Transcribe, but I've been using this simple little program (which cost 10$) for years and it has just had an incredible effect on my sax and guitar playing and my ear and my confidence level.

!Amazing Slow Downer for Windows - an easy way to slow down the speed of the music without changing the pitch - cd,player,cd-player,music software,variable speed,change speed,reduce speed,slow down,cycle,shareware,windows,XP,loop,music,softwar e, mult

[Sorry about the horrible looking link guys! His page title is a little crazy]


It should not be particularly difficult to transcribe other instruments using a guitar, except maybe a piano playing chords or an instrument which plays in a very high register. Guitar can mimic sax phrasing quite well.

There's a few little things that don't translate well sometimes - when a wind instrument bends a note, the pitch will usually go down - normal guitar bends will always go up. Nothing major though.

[wizard3739]

I also recommend the use of the "Transcribe" software. I have only used it for a couple of months but I found it to be one the best tools available for transcription.

wiz

[FatJeff]

According to !Slow down and transcribe with Roni Music software - slow down the speed of music without changing the pitch, the Amazing Slow Downer is now $49.95. I think this is the same price I paid for "Transcribe!". So it probably just boils down to preference.

I use Transcribe! on a weekly basis (I have to do several solo transcriptions each semester for a recurring class associated with the jazz studies program...and I also use it when I'm figuring out changes on songs that are fast). It seems to do the trick; I can't really think of any feature that I'd like that it doesn't have. It's stable, and it works on my Windows 7 platform.

Just my 2 cents.

[Reg]

Ccrybe.. How goes... sorry man I'm old school... If you just want the tune, get it from someone else... If your trying to work on your ears... do that. Most musicians I know that use a program to slow down the music never go back. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the programs, just a comment on what I see. It's not that hard to transcribe at actual tempo, but does take practice. Start with form, get the rhythm and harmony and fill in the melody. Usually the notes your having problems with will fill themselves in as you get the rest. The harmony will give you direction also.
It becomes very easy the more you do. When I was a kid at berklee, I worked in the ensemble room, my job was transcribing Machito Afro-Cuban Big Band charts with a reel to reel, headphones and manuscript paper. Would check on piano later. Was slow at first... then became pretty simple.
I could go on and on and give analogies but you should decide why your transcribing and go from there. Best Reg

[FatJeff]

I do most of my transcribing at 100% speed, but some solos (trumpet, usually) are just so damn fast that I need to slow them down in certain areas.

It's also instructive to hear the samples slowed down to maybe 50% - you really hear how behind/ahead some guys are on the beat, and how much slurring that occurs in fast runs.

[gravitas]

I have a singer friend that told me how she practices with Aebersolds. She finds a tune she's working on, and before improvising on it, she'll make sure she can nail every degree of the scale. Do one pass through singing roots, then fifths, thirds, sevenths, ninths, thirteenths, elevenths, sharp ninths, etc.

That kind of practice has an immense benefit on your ear. In order to sing those you not only have to be able to achieve resonance with the backing track, but to hit them immediately you have to be able to imagine how they sound before singing them... And geez, that's the whole game right there isn't it?

When you can do that, then you can start singing motives. Root third, root fifth, fifth ninth, sharp eleventh fifth root seventh, etc.

As for practicing transcribing... Well, you know what the french word for practice is, right? Ray-pay-tee-shee-own.

Good luck on your quest,

-Al

[Scrybe]

Thx or the posts guys!!! Yeah it's definitely to work on my ear, not just cos I wanna work on the tune - I have a stack of real books for any tunes I just wanna do immediately, this is to develop my abilities to solo over progressions without a reference chart and do stuff like repeating a phrase eg played by the trumpet guy jus before I began my solo (also to develop the skill of eg hearing a head for the first time then holding that in my head while I'm soloing so I can reference it in my improv). Long days ahread of me before I can do any of that, but it's where I want to get, so....


I'm def gonna give that singing trick a try - gonna try right now with some vampy backing trace n try hitting the root, then each scale tone then root 3 5 7 and so on.

But thx for all the posts. I am gonna cop Transcribe at some point and will def need it for some transcribing work, but I want to work in a way tht enables me to use those skills in real world situations. Right now, I'm just not hearing intervals as clearly when the tempo increases. Slowed down I could have nailed Straight No Chaser, but I can't exactly stop the band midgroove andask them to play it at half speed for my benefit...

[franco6719]

The more you do it, the easier it gets. That's all I can tell you.

[bako]

1. Part of ear training is having names and associations for sounds. Take anything that you already know on guitar and name all the relationships between the notes and observe the sound.

2. Take any song that you already know in your head and puzzle out the notes and rhythms with just paper and pencil.

3. Whenever you practice raw materials systematically it allows your ears time to absorb some of those specific sounds. For instance I spent alot of time practicing 13 kind of 7th chord voicings and arpeggios and those are sounds that are now very familiar to me.

4. A different kind of air guitar with no stage skills required. In real time visualize a short solo and yourself playing it including phrasing nuance. Stay simple at first and test it afterwards.

5. Rhythmically study all the basic divisions of the beat and get to know each location. Sixteenth notes in 4/4 have 16 possible places a note can land and the various combinations. Triplets have 12 places in 4/4, eighths have 8, quarters have 4 etc. All these locations should represent familiar sounds.

[Reg]

Hey Scrybe... your in a great direction and your ears will thank you in the future. Be aware of what your doing and where it ends. Reg

[Scrybe]

Oh, one thing I found that helps when I use Karajan to do interval testing when on public transport is to close my eyes (or not) and visualise myself playing the interval on my guitar as the 'piano' plays it on my phone - finding it improves my scores and also improves my freeboard knowledge - strange it isn't just one way.

I def have to try that imagining a solo then playing it exercise! And I'll work on rhythms too once I've made some good head way with pitch which is much weaker for me - I find I can copy rhythms very intuitively but pitch is more difficult to be accurate with and focusing on pitch means I lose sight of the rhythm, or ear of it rather. :-(

did find that All The Things You Are was really simple o memorize once I reduced the entire thing to the functional harmony of Vs IVs and Is though. It gives me a kind of movement framework and makes all the little details much easier to tie together. That's one I could never remember the changes for, but five minutes theory thinking today and I can play it fine now without the sheet! Did the same with Blue Bossa as a test, reducing it mentally to Cm-Fm-Cm-Db-Cm and I hear everything way more clearly now. Gonna do that on all my tunes and apply it to listening too. Awesome little trick, can't believe I'd forgotten about it!